India Coffee House

[mulj]

Since you prefer to quote me this time, I will quote you.

You (and others) can spotlight any snapshot whatever you want and correlate it to "Nazism" however you want to.

Countries that are open to do so, that have the media and systems to do so in first place...readily insert into this process.

It can be done so for Turkey, US, France....almost any country that is not totalitarian and large enough culturally/historically.

We can argue about the degrees and contexts among them, but that requires a common principle on what authoritarianism is and what totalitarianism is....precisely the scales involved and evidence needed.

My larger point on the principle is we will have to see anyone using the "Nazi" term, apply it at the appropriate level first and readily to the country with the physical scale and network of concentration camps for a particular minority.

These concentration camps did not exist before, they are new visceral proportion...and can be seen from space.

If you do not do so, but instead deflect to apologism and/or some hypocritical sense of realism in that case....well then you own your credibility on everything else past it too (when you use Nazi selectively there).

If every country more broadly makes large trade relationship (including Turkey, and especially given the victims in these camps are Turkic) with such a totalitarian system....

....surely it comes off as doubly hypocritical to then make agreement with extremists spouting "Gog and Magog" and "Dhul-Qarnain" selectively .....clearly on the far lower scale of it to any rational eyes, and thus purely by personal animus investiture to do so in first degree.

....or in your case "Nazi" and "I don't want to party spoil but....."

The apologism you make and continue to make on this totalitarian system, given its clear scale of visible actual Nazism in effect....is supposed to be lost on the audience?

The remote sensing and refugee testimony (right within Turkey) can be ignored by you as you please of course...but you are the one that has sermoned here multiple times to others to ignore it and be OK with it.

The extremist islamist (your buddy you hit like for) goes even further in saying its all propaganda to begin with....like the pork-loving CCP is a mullah with wonderful ordained pristine fatwa to be followed.

So really your credibility versus hypocrisy is there for all to see and take stock of. I don't need to add to it.

There is simply a whole lot of things you either do not know or choose to ignore...when you go down the islamist route (past this CCP one).

Since you brought in Pakistan and Bangladesh being more "green".....to contrast with "Nazifying" India or whatever..

A) What is the impact and legacy of the Objective Resolutions (1949) in Pakistan?

B) Why is Bangladesh no longer East Pakistan?...and the legacy of the political party (attaching itself to the dictator) in Pakistan involved in that at the time? The synthesis of left-wing ethnic populism and mullah-takfiri principles under autocratic stewardship surely played a role?

C) What is the role and legacy of Zia Ul Haq (and the coterie of islamist parties and movements he spawned along with Saudi funding at the basic school level)?

It's easy to label Nazi when you are the perceived victim (after taking shade under the umbrella of islamism).

Any of A, B and C comes up for similar use of Nazi?....on simple equivalency?...especially given materialised results (number and scale).

Or it gets whitewashed away and a pass?

Like how you will readily make common cause with Rohingya plight.....but suddenly there is an obstinacy and "look other way" when discussion of Bengalis facing the same Rohingya existential situation in their own homeland comes up.....simply because you have to "brother" "apologism" to umpteenth degree for the residual of greater relevance to you.

We are not supposed to call you hypocrite right?

Islamism and Nationalism are just 100% congruent after all when you have Muslim majority country....right?

You need not answer this stuff, its not even meant for you to answer....but for the others to read and research if they would like.

Many of them have long seen "party spoiled" along with full stepping on cake by indulgence in too much "faith brother" complex....involving many of the above points and many more in earlier forum run by "faith brother".

Giving a pass to "faith brother" because of "faith" and "brother"....generally leads to rational types questioning both air quotes.

The cake being stepped on (leading to creation of this forum in the first place) is maybe quite coincidental with the level of cringe seen in the mobs of mouth-breathing islamist coterie from such faith brother place cringing up all the Ertugul hangout spots.

You leave people to be, and they show you what they really are eventually.

Dude, you made carpet post without one word commenting or acknowledging rise of hindutva nacism in india, that say more then anything about your honesty and objective approach.

 

[Nilgiri]

Too long, didn't read. But caught this part. %100 dead wrong.
Islamists hate nationalism. True nationalists hate Islamism.

Yes I was asking it as a "question" to juxtapose....the answer is within itself clearly.

 

[Nilgiri]

Dude, you made carpet post without one word commenting or acknowledging rise of hindutva nacism in india, that say more then anything about your honesty and objective approach.

Its a conversation to have with people that define "Nazism" and have principles on its application.

Which you certainly do not.

I could ask you to go down to Bangladesh and talk about the Nazism they faced (that led to formation of their country).

But of course you would not, for the exact same reason....you understand nothing about what it is, much less having the basic principle in consistent use.

 

[Nilgiri]

It's real simple if you are going to use "Nazi" or whatever other term, you need to be consistent and principled on it (to state what your threshold).

If the process is instead something like this (in a downstream setup or legacy):

A: Most severe case of Nazism/fascism/totalitarianism.....Pass, coz realist ally for my version of islamism

B: Lesser version of A.....Pass because perps are are islamists/muslims
C: lesser version of A.... victims are muslims
D: lesser version of A... victims are non-muslim though...semi-pass, doesn't matter to talk about
E: lesser version of A...Pass because perps are are islamists/muslims...and/or country is realist ally
F: lesser version of A...
G: lesser version of A... Realist ally to islamism, gets a pass.
H: lesser version of A...
I : lesser version of A...
J: lesser version of A...

etc...etc...

i.e you ignore A to begin with and then further ignore others in the lower versions of it by a filter you have.

This one gets crossed out...this one too (though same stuff happening)....but here's what you need to see and focus on.

....then you expect people to not see your crossing out process....and the bias that drives it?

This crossing out filter can be islamism, it can be hindutva too, it can be any extreme dogma (that inevitably competes with true nationalism)....case can be made for marxist-statism and many more too (as to the actual intersection with the nation's society at large).

But whatever the filter is, you are not consistent and principled as you have made clear exceptions and you have not entered the argument (regarding Nazism etc) with the good faith needed to gauge what your threshold even is.

You simply use it as selective ad-hominem....and in which case you are hypocrite and I am not interested....and neither should anyone else (that is rational and allied to basic principles).

It undermines the real problem (and crimes/hate, even systematic crime and hate) in the end, as you exaggerate with alarmist catchphrase rather than provide any kind of rational debate to understand the common phenomenon in human psyche driving it.

 

[Nilgiri]

You're a mod, don't you think this thread got derailed enough with indian bangladesh stuff?

Yes I am ending it here....I am just illustrating the filter process islamism(and other dogmas counter to nationalism....i.e fake nationalism is what I call them) uses....

"This is Nazi"......but "this isn't"

...and its same exact stuff in both (to true nationalists).

 

[Nilgiri]

@Jackdaws post that internal domestic stuff in here....and tag folks you would like to chat with it about etc...

I have pinned the thread for convenience...

 

[Nilgiri]

Please move the relevant messages to relevant forums/threads. Thank you.

I have no power to do so in this section. I am not global mod.

If a global mod or admin wants to, they can move replies (I think starting from page 101 onwards) to IN section.

Maybe IN politics thread or IN general relations thread:

Indian Politics and General News Archive

September 25, 2020, 2:30 AM GMT+5:30 About 25 bills were passed in the session that ended this week Labor and farm bills involve political risk for ruling party Prime Minister Narendra Modi Photographer: Dhiraj Singh/Bloomberg India’s latest parliament session ended in 10 days but it was one...

defencehub.live

India - India General Foreign Relations Archive

MOD NOTE: All foreign relations news+analysis (w.r.t India) outside direct neighbours and outside the P5 go here. The intergovernmental negotiations on Security Council reform are being "held hostage" and used as a "convenient smokescreen" by countries that do not wish to see any changes in...

defencehub.live

 

[Raptor]

Its a conversation to have with people that define "Nazism" and have principles on its application.

Which you certainly do not.

I could ask you to go down to Bangladesh and talk about the Nazism they faced (that led to formation of their country).

But of course you would not, for the exact same reason....you understand nothing about what it is, much less having the basic principle in consistent use.

Its laughable how they tend to label anything nacism,don't even know what is hindutva or so

 

[Nilgiri]

Dude, two clicks away, plenty of scholary articls of rss nazi ideology and if you extend search with crimes you get physical proofs of implementation. Do not lecture me.

You are welcome to bring to our attention any scholarly article regarding RSS ideology w.r.t Nazism here.

You will find a number of RSS critics here like @Jackdaws , myself and others....(but you will find we criticize w.r.t the largest principle regarding this and not selectively based on religion or other identity).

We will discuss it in plain terms w.r.t the last post on issue in TR politics side: https://defencehub.live/threads/turkish-politics.194/page-100#post-104139

i.e especially with reference of greater principle at large in that you would have to rationally accept first (all given the manifested evidence, well past the ideology itself):

1) Xinjiang concentration camp "Nazism"

2) "Nazism" involved in formation of Bangladesh from East Pakistan

3) Other forms of "Nazism" in Islamist ideologies and groups.

If you do not acknowledge 1, 2 and 3 (and scholarly articles regarding those)...the audience can then summarise whether you have good or bad faith approach readily.

===========================

EDIT: Addendum from post there:

But to get anywhere (regarding fascist ideology of which you will find number of Indians criticizing incl me) you will need basic good-faith approach on the principle.

So far yours has been the equivalent of:

1) Excuse/ignore clear far larger blatant instances (given the evidence) of it in actual operation at state scale (eg. Xinjiang) currently and in history (esp if islamist origin)

2) Hit like on (now deleted) post with "Gog and Magog" and "Dhul-Qarnain" collective attack on my entire nation (regular people and all)

3) Simply say "scholarly articles say nazism" without taking ownership of your own (specific) views, approach and argument basis (different to an author, whom you also do not present).

Authors of such articles are responsible and accountable for their words which is larger discussion.

It would depend on the author's credibility (like would they do 1 and 2 like you have) to begin with.


Because after all (given this is TR politics thread).... Turkish nationalists here have never seen this trope of "scholarly articles" insinuating or openly attacking their nation or whatever political parties within them on something to level of "Nazism" "Genocide" before.

They have never seen such tactics especially in use by FETO and other islamist scum right now correct?

By simple basis of saying "just look at the scholarly articles that are easily searchable and that say Nazi or whatever other trope"

Your same approach (but shoe on another foot, but same islamism be all end all) would seek to undermine how a Turk Nationalist can respond to such things as Kurdish issue accusations (by various "scholars").

All the while you have not even cleared past issue (1)....concentration camps in Xinjiang.

All the while you do not factor in to the slightest bit level of Kurdish representation and participation in Turkish political scene, media and discourse.

All things that very much prevent situation of Xinjiang concentration camps (which needs CCP totalitarian monolith) from having a chance of developing.

Or is it your contention that muslims in India do not have this situation that Kurds do in Turkey?

Or that a lot of Turkish nationalists criticise (and even despise) the ruling party in power?...and this is so different to Indias case?

That this internal criticism (producing scholarly articles of its own) is even allowed in first place? (Quite unlike country of issue 1)

If so bring up the facts, articles in the IN thread and lets get to the meat of the matter there.

But here you are going....don't even trade (or talk in any larger realm between people) and "I don't want to spoil the party but....Nazis!"

What are we to think of a person that quotes "Scholarly articles" about anti-semitism in Poland, Hungary, Romania, France, Italy or whichever European country between 1933 and 1945....but ignore and deflect away from numero uno because of some convenience/issue/filter known only to him?

 

[mulj]

You are welcome to bring to our attention any scholarly article regarding RSS ideology w.r.t Nazism here.

You will find a number of RSS critics here like @Jackdaws , myself and others....(but you will find we criticize w.r.t the largest principle regarding this and not selectively based on religion or other identity).

We will discuss it in plain terms w.r.t the last post on issue in TR politics side: https://defencehub.live/threads/turkish-politics.194/page-102#post-105052

i.e especially with reference of greater principle at large in that you would have to rationally accept first (all given the manifested evidence, well past the ideology itself):

1) Xinjiang concentration camp "Nazism"

2) "Nazism" involved in formation of Bangladesh from East Pakistan

3) Other forms of "Nazism" in Islamist ideologies and groups.

If you do not acknowledge 1, 2 and 3 (and scholarly articles regarding those)...the audience can then summarise whether you have good or bad faith approach readily.

Dude, with all due respect you are champion of whataboutism and when i say champion i do not mean as virtue achievment. I am very well aware of human short comings inany human societies but it seems you are not aware of basic principle of using broom in your own courtyard. Event that i understand that as cope mechanism for decent and educated person, i could assume that you something like that as you divert towards other problematic social conditions instead what should be you primary concern and that is strange mix of atavism and nazi ideology flowed trough hindu political tought.

Regarding poinys you raised, i will indulge.

1) yes.

2) not such.

3) impossible,

Aĺl mentioned beside point 1 is your cheap diversion..

 

[mulj]

If you want to discuss "RSS ideology" vis a vis "scholarly articles" in this context you can continue here:

Indian Politics and General News Archive

sooner or later he will face the same fate of Ajmal Kasab... I never understand the mentality to kill people waiting for trains and going back to home from office . Its no rocket science , even all global terrorism some how get a common connection

defencehub.live

But to get anywhere (regarding fascist ideology of which you will find number of Indians criticizing incl me) you will need basic good-faith approach on the principle.

So far yours has been the equivalent of:

1) Excuse/ignore clear far larger blatant instances (given the evidence) of it in actual operation at state scale (eg. Xinjiang) currently and in history (esp if islamist origin)

2) Hit like on (now deleted) post with "Gog and Magog" and "Dhul-Qarnain" collective attack on my entire nation (regular people and all)

3) Simply say "scholarly articles say nazism" without taking ownership of your own (specific) views, approach and argument basis (different to an author, whom you also do not present).

Authors of such articles are responsible and accountable for their words which is larger discussion.

It would depend on the author's credibility (like would they do 1 and 2 like you have) to begin with.


Because after all (given this is TR politics thread).... Turkish nationalists here have never seen this trope of "scholarly articles" insinuating or openly attacking their nation or whatever political parties within them on something to level of "Nazism" "Genocide" before.

They have never seen such tactics especially in use by FETO and other islamist scum right now correct?

By simple basis of saying "just look at the scholarly articles that are easily searchable and that say Nazi or whatever other trope"

Your same approach (but shoe on another foot, but same islamism be all end all) would seek to undermine how a Turk Nationalist can respond to such things as Kurdish issue accusations (by various "scholars").

All the while you have not even cleared past issue (1)....concentration camps in Xinjiang.

All the while you do not factor in to the slightest bit level of Kurdish representation and participation in Turkish political scene, media and discourse.

All things that very much prevent situation of Xinjiang concentration camps (which needs CCP totalitarian monolith) from having a chance of developing.

Or is it your contention that muslims in India do not have this situation that Kurds do in Turkey?

Or that a lot of Turkish nationalists criticise (and even despise) the ruling party in power?...and this is so different to Indias case?

That this internal criticism (producing scholarly articles of its own) is even allowed in first place? (Quite unlike country of issue 1)

If so bring up the facts, articles in the IN thread and lets get to the meat of the matter there.

But here you are going....don't even trade (or talk in any larger realm between people) and "I don't want to spoil the party but....Nazis!"

What are we to think of a person that quotes "Scholarly articles" about anti-semitism in Poland, Hungary, Romania, France, Italy or whichever European country between 1933 and 1945....but ignore and deflect away from numero uno because of some convenience/issue/filter known only to him?

I do not want to discuss it as it is plain simple how it is uncivilesed and destructive ideology for any unbiased observer, you as indian should discuss with your fellow compatriots how that backward and destructive ideology took important position within indian society.

 

[Nilgiri]

Dude, with all due respect you are champion of whataboutism and when i say champion i do not mean as virtue achievment. I am very well aware of human short comings inany human societies but it seems you are not aware of basic principle of using broom in your own courtyard. Event that i understand that as cope mechanism for decent and educated person, i could assume that you something like that as you divert towards other problematic social conditions instead what should be you primary concern and that is strange mix of atavism and nazi ideology flowed trough hindu political tought.

Regarding poinys you raised, i will indulge.

1) yes.

2) not such.

3) impossible,

Aĺl mentioned beside point 1 is your cheap diversion..

From the poor English, I see you accepted at least point one.

But I have yet to see you intervene in same way when China - Turkey trade or relationship comes up for discussion. Rather you have always favoured it being balanced approach. Yet you don't follow this selectively when it comes to India. Interesting is it not?

2) and 3) are expected, no surprise. As you don't have the higher principle....i.e call out fascism wherever its found. So frankly we are done here....you dont have a good faith principle, you apply it selectively.

This is exactly why you come into conflict with true nationalists.

You brought up "Nazi" in thread that had nothing to do with it....you got the blowback (as you usually do from Turkish nationalists more generally here) and now its complaining time of "cheap diversion".

Ok Mr. Cheapshot, whatever you say.

 

[mulj]

From the poor English, I see you accepted at least point one.

But I have yet to see you intervene in same way when China - Turkey trade or relationship comes up for discussion. Rather you have always favoured it being balanced approach. Yet you don't follow this selectively when it comes to India. Interesting is it not?

2) and 3) are expected, no surprise. As you don't have the higher principle....i.e call out fascism wherever its found. So frankly we are done here....you dont have a good faith principle, you apply it selectively.

This is exactly why you come into conflict with true nationalists.

You brought up "Nazi" in thread that had nothing to do with it....you got the blowback (as you usually do from Turkish nationalists more generally here) and now its complaining time of "cheap diversion".

Ok Mr. Cheapshot, whatever you say.

Your tries to make some kind of indirect insults does not bother me, meanwhile in real time and world, my points are gettimg proven especially if you check replies.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426181436621524994

 

[Jackdaws]

Meanwhile,

Modiji continues to troll Pakistan in the most glorious way

PM Modi says August 14 will be observed as Partition Horrors Remembrance Day​

Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that August 14 will be remembered as 'Vibhajan Vibhishika Smriti Diwas' or Partition Horrors Remembrance Day in memory of those who lost their lives during Partition.​

PM Modi says August 14 will be observed as Partition Horrors Remembrance Day

Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that August 14 will be remembered as 'Vibhajan Vibhishika Smriti Diwas' or Partition Horrors Remembrance Day in memory of those who lost their lives during Partition.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[kumata]

Your tries to make some kind of indirect insults does not bother me, meanwhile in real time and world, my points are gettimg proven especially if you check replies.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426181436621524994

You are quoting a journalist whose bias is pretty open and world knows her parleys pretty well.

Give us break.

And talking of minorities, we don't need lessons from anyone on this world. Data speaks for itself & these champions like rana ayyub consume gum the moment narrative shifts in their favor.

 

[mulj]

You are quoting a journalist whose bias is pretty open and world knows her parleys pretty well.

Give us break.

And talking of minorities, we don't need lessons from anyone on this world. Data speaks for itself & these champions like rana ayyub consume gum the moment narrative shifts in their favor.

She speaks facts, answer me this, guy who called for genocide on muslims released from jail 24 hours with bail and some muslim comeidan was 3 and half months in jail for joke that he even did not say.
So, for anyone who can count and sum, situation is obvious were state of India goes.

 

[kumata]

She speaks facts, answer me this, guy who called for genocide on muslims released from jail 24 hours with bail and some muslim comeidan was 3 and half months in jail for joke that he even did not say.
So, for anyone who can count and sum, situation is obvious were state of India goes.

Those are sporadic incidents and bail release depends on the gravity of crime committed. What modi or govt have to do with this. It's the local courts who decide of bail et all.

Was she crying when Muslim women's sat in middle of Road for full 6 month + causing inconvenience to lakhs of people. That was Freedom of speech for her but the moment, police starts questioning.. Govt is Fascist!!!

Do you even know how much money govt is spending on welfare of Muslims in India and have increased the budgets et all for them multifold since taking over while we tax payers Hindus gets zero benefits of such schemes. We are still paying Jaziya tax per se & u r crying fascism... Is it a joke...

More Muslims got govt scholarships under Modi govt than during Congress-led UPA-2

There were 2.37 crore Muslim beneficiaries of govt scholarships during Modi's first term, while the figure under Manmohan's second was 2.33 crore.

www.google.com

Last year, he spend 22000 crores just on Muslim appeasement.

Fact is She have build her career over her modi / BJP hatred. That's how she earns her bread and people like your consume & spread that propoganda without applying a single grey cell. Few months, she was hauled up by courts for spreading fake news to spread communal violence & had FIR registered against her before she apologised and back tracked.

She had no problem reporting on burning Hindu pyree,s but will retort like a coward the moment she sees a Muslim grave and here u r gloating over her propoganda video... I suspect her own people take her seriously. She is just a mascot Of anti govt cabal who will suck up to same govt if they extend a single benefit to her. That's how their morals are....

And yes, indian Muslims get better rights in India than Hindus & other minorities. They have grown since 1947 from being 3 % of population to almost 20% today's and are increasing each day. Problem is that people cannot see as it doesn, t suit their agenda / propoganda.

If u really want to see minorities, u need to look at our neighbours where how minority Hindus are being treated each day!!!!!

 

[kumata]

I typically do not watch Bollywood shit that they dish out but this is close to my heart. well made movie with zero un-necessary stuff. I still remember the emotions on ground when they bought him in trilcolor to native!!!!!!!!!

we decisively won kargil but scars run too deep!!!!

God bless him where ever he is at the moment.

 

[kumata]

I hate when they put love story in such movies

see the standard of such movie is set by saving private Ryan

Agree but here it gels with the story and is integral part of his life...she is still working as school teacher in CHD and un-married ...

 

[Jackdaws]

OTOH, tried watching Bhuj. Shut it in 3 minutes. Jingoistic nonsense from the 90s.