India Coffee House

[Nilgiri]

I am simply asking you point blank, if genocidewatch is good for the goose, is it good for the gander?

You seem to think the Turks here were born yesterday regarding "just read X Y Z (selectively), anyone can do so"....when it comes to accounts given by "insert independent organisation here"....just like genocidewatch (which you now got caught in a trap about regd what they say about Turkey).

Like they are incapable of using shoe on the other foot recollection of how this has been done w.r.t Greek, Armenian, Kurdish and whomever elses accounts (and all the organisations that have picked up and promoted it in one sided fashion)... glove in hand like you are using in tone-deaf and one-sided fashion.

i.e hypocritically and with zero credibility since you have not introspected on your own to any relevant depth to assert on others after (without discussing with them) and that too first thing arriving in this forum.

You really think or assume members here haven't faced and discussed these topics extensively to not be able to see through your hypocrite bad-faith approach.

What would be the turkish member response be here if genocidewatch or whatever XYZ institution is used by a recent member from Greece for example, as the first basis for assertion on their "anyone can read it just look it up!" approach?

Is it better than forming an actual consistent basis?

If you can criticize yourself completely first, then you have ground to stand on to actually form the deep consistency needed to analyse good and bad, truth and untruth (which needs debate....not a sermon first thing).

Otherwise its best you stay away from doing so. The rules of this forum are clear in avoiding that that kind of (bad faith one-sided sermon) thing developing.

...and certainly will not tolerate continued "believe me" tokenism of "we dont have these issues, but you totally do"....just because you said so and can pick and choose things selectively to orient it.

 

[Afif]

I am simply asking you point blank, if genocidewatch is good for the goose, is it good for the gander?

You seem to think the Turks here were born yesterday regarding "just read X Y Z (selectively), anyone can do so"....when it comes to accounts given by "insert independent organisation here"....just like genocidewatch (which you now got caught in a trap about regd what they say about Turkey).

Like they are incapable of using shoe on the other foot recollection of how this has been done w.r.t Greek, Armenian, Kurdish and whomever elses accounts (and all the organisations that have picked up and promoted it in one sided fashion)... glove in hand like you are using in tone-deaf and one-sided fashion.

i.e hypocritically and with zero credibility since you have not introspected on your own to any relevant depth to assert on others after (without discussing with them) and that too first thing arriving in this forum.

You really think or assume members here haven't faced and discussed these topics extensively to not be able to see through your hypocrite bad-faith approach.

What would be the turkish member response be here if genocidewatch or whatever XYZ institution is used by a recent member from Greece for example, as the first basis for assertion on their "anyone can read it just look it up!" approach?

Is it better than forming an actual consistent basis?

If you can criticize yourself completely first, then you have ground to stand on to actually form the deep consistency needed to analyse good and bad, truth and untruth (which needs debate....not a sermon first thing)

and certainly not "believe me" tokenism of "we dont have these issues, but you totally do"....just because you said so and can pick and choose things selectively to orient it.

It seems the only thing that you can stick with, is my suggestion to read a the 'genocide watch' report on india! no! I don't think the Turks in this forum were born yesterday. And i didn't assumed they are dumb! I am just citing some information sources for others to just have a look at it. I am not suggesting it as a gospel but as one of many perspective!

And I didn't said 'we don't have issues, but you totally do' what I did said is 'we do have issues, but they are simply not comparable to india's problems!' Because problems like honor killing ( which is heavily driven by tribalism ) and the indian infamous classification of four classes and caste system ( which is deeply rooted in hidue religion itself ) is not just something very selective that I am picking and choosing to orient it ( as you wanna accused me of ) these are very serious fundamental problems for any socio-cultural environment! And this is not a very hard calculation to make! if one society have these problems and other one don't have it, the state of human rights and women rights will differ notably between these two society!

And Thankfully, it is not that we have very lower percentage of honor killings compared to india and pakistan! It simply doesn't exist here! ( Less than 0.01 percent) half of the people propably never heard the phrase in their entire lifetime! In addition to that, the lack of dominance of hindue culture helped to demolish any radical 'CASTE' divisions in bangladeshi society! Of course, no one has to take my word for it! The reader can research for himself.

but most importantly, the one thing that you don't seems to understand that, MY POST IS NOT A RESEARCH PAPER TO PROVE OR ANALYSE WITH THE SCEINTIFIC METHOD WHAT IS FACTUALLY HAPPENING OR HAPPENED IN INDIA. AND I AM NOT USING THAT REPORT/VIDEO TO FORM MY BASIS NOR I AM CHOOSING THE REFERENCES THEMSELVES 'SELECTIVELY' AS PROOFS. I AM JUST SIMPLY STATING THEM AS EXAMPLES FOR MY PERSONAL DESCRITPTION OF INDIA FOLLOWED BY MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION. and Surely, this is not the place where I am gonna debate with you whether my descritption is false, selective, one sided, inconsistent with the reality or not! ( pretty sure if i was talking about pakistan's fundamental socio-cultural porblems like honor killing and tribalism they are gonna accuse me of the same thing that you are doing here ) this is entirely up to the readers to make up their own minds with their own extensive research.

by the way, Those metaphors about my hypocrisy and inconsistency that you used ( to personally insult me ) are sounds cool! However, in the end of day everyone's opinion about the TRUTH and FACT, GOOD or BAD is still remain SUBJECTIVE.

 

[Jackdaws]

@Jackdaws @T-123456 et al.

You might find this interview of one Pakistani historian (I. Ahmed) response to another one's publication (A. Jalal) interesting.

It gives a (strict evidence based) counter perspective to some arguably more fanciful projections that have been developed w.r.t Jinnah...like Ayesha Jalal and others have espoused.

Turkey + Ataturk brought up around 28 minute mark as one example of this, but whole interview is worth watching for full context.

His (Ishtiaq Ahmed) books are worth reading for anyone interested in the topic (Partition) more broadly.

I've read some of his stuff. He used to write a partition column for a Pak newspapers in the naughties.

Anyway, Jinnah was a SoBo boy thru and thru. He married a Parsi. Even after Partition, he requested Nehru to let his bungalow in Malabar Hill remain so that he could retire there.

When Partition talks were going on he was also talking to JRD Tata to buy some shares in Air India.

So he was happy for those affected by the riots of Partition on either side to be forced to move but he wanted to retire in India. It's downright laughable.

 

[Nilgiri]

I've read some of his stuff. He used to write a partition column for a Pak newspapers in the naughties.

Anyway, Jinnah was a SoBo boy thru and thru. He married a Parsi. Even after Partition, he requested Nehru to let his bungalow in Malabar Hill remain so that he could retire there.

When Partition talks were going on he was also talking to JRD Tata to buy some shares in Air India.

So he was happy for those affected by the riots of Partition on either side to be forced to move but he wanted to retire in India. It's downright laughable.

The largest inconsistencies for me w.r.t Jinnah was the original maximalist approach for a Pakistan with undivided Bengal and undivided Punjab just given to Pakistan....and also trying to spur further cleaving of India on other identity basis (past religion).

The third is the ad-hoc process used in NWFP where INC had the 1946 election mandate (under bacha khan and his brother leadership there).

These were all things that applied only to X but not to Y (larger argument/logic).

This was part of the reason Jinnah made sure (with Churchill's support on it) the 1945 simla conference totally broke down from onset.

Consider point one especially mentioned by joe here:

Book Excerpt; Governance of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan

Ok... Below is an Excerpt from a book i am writing titled The Codification of Laws The Azad government knew that they needed to implement a system not just to bring order to the territory but also to strengthen their hold on the territory they now governed. To do this the Azad Kashmir...

defencehub.live

It was during this time period he figured use of tokenism to first achieve as much under this maximalist approach (figuring churchill would continue in power after ww2 ended)....i.e the largest bargaining pressure with mind fully set on islamic-majoritarian nationhood.

This was done given Churchills avowed distaste towards Indians in general, especially Hindus....thus Churchill's reductive proclivity towards having as large Pakistan as possible that was pro-Britain (useful to west in general) to take forward in post war world etc.

It was only after final red line spine shown by INC and with Atlee coming to power and changing the UK dispensation's approach to exiting India as quickly as possible....that there was a reality check which severely eroded what Jinnah was trying for.

He (Jinnah) had several elitist insular tendencies, he just didn't understand the reality on the ground by pushing this in few short years out of whatever personal animosity and vindictiveness developed towards INC.

This is exactly why/how things were baked in for way Pakistan has turned out over time, unable to properly sleep in the bed it made for itself. There is severe root discord, and it is ever running reel of denial and gaslighting on it....without understanding it and correcting it.

Now I understand the need to have unblemished founding father as possible in the national ethos and psyche going forward (it happens worldwide, maybe degrees vary).....so I can empathise somewhat with folks in Pakistan that go for that first thing (and fit things piecemeal as need be)..... but that (top down basis) phenomenon is a separate and different larger subject to get into.

It is different matter to looking at the historical record as objectively and detailed as possible.

 

[Nilgiri]

It seems the only thing that you can stick with, is my suggestion to read a the 'genocide watch' report on india! No! I don't think the Turks in this forum were born yesterday. And i didn't assumed they are dumb! I am just citing some information sources for others to just have a look at it. And I didn't said 'we don't have issues, but you totally do' what I did said is 'we do have issues, but they are simply not comparable to india's problems!' Most importantly, the one thing that you don't seems to understand that, MY POST IS NOT A RESEARCH PAPER TO FACTUALLY PROVE OR ANALYSE WITH SCEINTIFIC METHOD WHAT IS HAPPENING OR HAPPENED IN INDIA. I AM NOT USING THE SOURCES AND THE INCIDENCES AS PROOFS BUT AS EXAMPLES FOR MY DESCRITPTION. ( my post is not a bad-faith one-sided sermon, this is just my personal description followed by personal conclusion ) and Surely, this is not the place where I am gonna debate with you whether my descritption is selective, inconsistent with the reality or not! this is entirely up to the readers to make up their own minds with their own reaserch. ( i don't think my descritption of india violates any forum's rule, as there is no hate speech or name calling ) by the way, Those metaphors about my hypocrisy and inconsistency that you used ( to personally insult me ) are sounds cool! However, in the end everyone's opinion about the TRUTH and FACT, GOOD OR BAD is still remain SUBJECTIVE.

Just take it easy man how you approach this stuff.

You are not from India....but you are welcome to come to our section (say coffee thread etc) and bring up each political or structural flaw you perceive to debate.

It is not like everything you say is wrong. Indians here have debated these issues in some depth already, just like Turks do w.r.t their country and criticize several things they see with politics and social issues currently.

Instead you simply assert (that too addressing a third party - Turks) that very little is wrong with yours (BD) and India is simply on some other scale by whatever you can fit selectively to show so.....simply by using it being inherently larger, far more diverse, with far more media capacity, far more political institutional capacity and far more world interest/focus on it compared to yours.

How is this a consistent approach?

If someone not from Bangladesh sees Bangladesh being brought up in some positive light on some issue.....there is to be immediate re-addressal of this (by a non-Bangladeshi of all people in their animus towards BD) by simply googling things like and posting piecemeal things from:

- Chittagong hill tracts genocidewatch (since you are such a big fan of them)
- Noakhali riots/genocide
- Direct Action day and suhrawardy compliance in it
- Bangladesh liberation war w.r.t what Hindus faced from many rajakar bengali forces, and how they have been subsumed in BD today by JeI, BNP and others?
- Holy artisan bakery and all such episodes
- Continued severe discrimination of minorities, including riots.

Then present and assert/imply this to entirety (while saying whatever feel good for their own being "not as bad").

Would it be fair and consistent? Certainly not to the majority of good people in BD surely?

Like I said already, this has been done numerous times to Turks already with issues close to them by others.

i.e What foreigners assert on them with no context and debate.

Foreigners trying to be a one-sided bridge in understanding whatever country towards someone else is toxic.

(I am not going to reply anymore on this here....it just going to go further off topic.

I suggest that you change your approach and bring up topics in the suitable threads for it if you want actual conversation on it.)

(Note: Convo now moved to coffee thread for any further convo)

 

[Nilgiri]

A nice change of pace @T-123456 et al:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1562719466311786498

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am simply asking you point blank, if genocidewatch is good for the goose, is it good for the gander?

You seem to think the Turks here were born yesterday regarding "just read X Y Z (selectively), anyone can do so"....when it comes to accounts given by "insert independent organisation here"....just like genocidewatch (which you now got caught in a trap about regd what they say about Turkey).

Like they are incapable of using shoe on the other foot recollection of how this has been done w.r.t Greek, Armenian, Kurdish and whomever elses accounts (and all the organisations that have picked up and promoted it in one sided fashion)... glove in hand like you are using in tone-deaf and one-sided fashion.

i.e hypocritically and with zero credibility since you have not introspected on your own to any relevant depth to assert on others after (without discussing with them) and that too first thing arriving in this forum.

You really think or assume members here haven't faced and discussed these topics extensively to not be able to see through your hypocrite bad-faith approach.

What would be the turkish member response be here if genocidewatch or whatever XYZ institution is used by a recent member from Greece for example, as the first basis for assertion on their "anyone can read it just look it up!" approach?

Is it better than forming an actual consistent basis?

If you can criticize yourself completely first, then you have ground to stand on to actually form the deep consistency needed to analyse good and bad, truth and untruth (which needs debate....not a sermon first thing).

Otherwise its best you stay away from doing so. The rules of this forum are clear in avoiding that that kind of (bad faith one-sided sermon) thing developing.

...and certainly will not tolerate continued "believe me" tokenism of "we dont have these issues, but you totally do"....just because you said so and can pick and choose things selectively to orient it.

A bit shattering, but well deserved.

 

[iceream]

@Nilgiri when do you get online bcs it's 1 am in India ?

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri when do you get online bcs it's 1 am in India ?

I'm in Canada so generally afternoons-evenings Eastern Time.....so probably late night onwards in India time.

 

[TR_123456]

 

[Nilgiri]

That is a generic multipartisan phenomenon in the West as they woke/wake up (slowly) to the fact that Zemin+Jintao CCP factions would not persevere as they expected in earlier perceived trajectory.....much less prevail vis-a-vis "new" factions harnessed and now entrenched by Xi Jinping.

Coincidentally 1 week later after I wrote that, this video unpacks lot of this underlying phenomenon and details related to it that is often skipped over outside China @Gessler @AlphaMike @Milspec @Paro et. al

His larger channel is also well worth checking (w.r.t China analysis especially) out if you haven't already.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

I've read a couple of tweets and postings on the internet discussing the Indian military's expertise and professionalism in comparison to Russia's subpar performance in Ukraine.

Some argue that India's state of affairs is even more depressing than Russia's obviously incompetent and inconsistent military complex.

Though, others point out that unlike Russia, India is in a constant state of preparedness due to ongoing conflict with Pakistan which is, as you already know, a nuclear armed nation with a disciplined and serious military force.

I would like to hear the Indian users own and unbiased opinions.

I do think that a lingering nuclear war threat should be reason enough to get your stuff together if you know what I mean...

But recent Indian mishaps like the failed missile test near the Pakistani border or the miserable performance of the Indian Airforce during its last intrusion into Pakistani airspace are a source of concern, though, all in all I'm still undecided.

 

[Afif]

I've read a couple of tweets and postings on the internet discussing the Indian military's expertise and professionalism in comparison to Russia's subpar performance in Ukraine.

Some argue that India's state of affairs is even more depressing than Russia's obviously incompetent and inconsistent military complex.

Though, others point out that unlike Russia, India is in a constant state of preparedness due to ongoing conflict with Pakistan which is, as you already know, a nuclear armed nation with a disciplined and serious military force.

I would like to hear the Indian users own and unbiased opinions.

I do think that a lingering nuclear war threat should be reason enough to get your stuff together if you know what I mean...

But recent Indian mishaps like the failed missile test near the Pakistani border or the miserable performance of the Indian Airforce during its last intrusion into Pakistani airspace are a source of concern, though, all in all I'm still undecided.

Damm man! You just restricted the freedom of opinion to only indians in an international forum.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Damm man! You just restricted the freedom of opinion to only indians in an international forum.

Everyone can take part in this discussion but naturally I'm more keen to read an Indian stance on this issue from an inner perspective.

 

[Afif]

I think who probably has a good insight an indian, but doesn't live in india. @Nilgiri! What is your opinion on the topic ?

 

[Zapper]

I've read a couple of tweets and postings on the internet discussing the Indian military's expertise and professionalism in comparison to Russia's subpar performance in Ukraine.

Some argue that India's state of affairs is even more depressing than Russia's obviously incompetent and inconsistent military complex.

Though, others point out that unlike Russia, India is in a constant state of preparedness due to ongoing conflict with Pakistan which is, as you already know, a nuclear armed nation with a disciplined and serious military force.

I would like to hear the Indian users own and unbiased opinions.

I do think that a lingering nuclear war threat should be reason enough to get your stuff together if you know what I mean...

But recent Indian mishaps like the failed missile test near the Pakistani border or the miserable performance of the Indian Airforce during its last intrusion into Pakistani airspace are a source of concern, though, all in all I'm still undecided.

While I will let Nilgiri answer, I'll touch the two incidents you mentioned in your post. Competency is subjective and in this day and age, there's nothing as absolute victory. If nukes were taken outta the equation, even Turkey can be a formidable foe to Russia. As for the failed missile test near pak border, it wasn't a missile test in the first place since we conduct all our missile tests on the east coast into the Bay of Bengal. While it's obvious that GoI wouldn't officially accept launching a nuclear capable supersonic CM into enemy territory, this seemed like a deliberate launch since it's not as simple as pushing a "big red button". The missile wasn't armed but the kinetic energy was enough to obliterate buildings.

Few buildings flattened at Mian Channu from the impact

As for Feb-26 fiasco, it was clearly poor planning from our side. Our doctrine has always been reactive wherein it should be proactive. After our Mirages bombed Balakot, it was obvious that there'd be retaliation from PAF and this should warrant activating all ADs, ensuring SOPs are implemented with active CAPs. When PAF sent is a strike package of 24 fighter jets comprised of F-16s, Mirages and JF-17s, IAF countered them only with 8 fighters out of which 4 were the vintage Mig-21s. PAF was also effective in using their AWACS and EW warfare which blinded our Mig. When it comes to competancy, IN>IA>IAF. Things are changing but there's still a long way to go...standoff with PLA helped us realize the importance of indigenization and we've been progressing in that regard while also being more proactive on that front

 

[Nilgiri]

I've read a couple of tweets and postings on the internet discussing the Indian military's expertise and professionalism in comparison to Russia's subpar performance in Ukraine.

Some argue that India's state of affairs is even more depressing than Russia's obviously incompetent and inconsistent military complex.

Though, others point out that unlike Russia, India is in a constant state of preparedness due to ongoing conflict with Pakistan which is, as you already know, a nuclear armed nation with a disciplined and serious military force.

I would like to hear the Indian users own and unbiased opinions.

I do think that a lingering nuclear war threat should be reason enough to get your stuff together if you know what I mean...

But recent Indian mishaps like the failed missile test near the Pakistani border or the miserable performance of the Indian Airforce during its last intrusion into Pakistani airspace are a source of concern, though, all in all I'm still undecided.

I think who probably has a good insight an indian, but doesn't live in india. @Nilgiri! What is your opinion on the topic ?

These things in the end can only be (truly) realised if there is an actual war and then analyse things in hindsight after it.

Something none of us should wish for.

In interim India like any country does what it can to prepare for wars that hopefully never have to happen.

India must focus on continuing to grow economically faster (several times over) than its main security threat to the west...and do what it can to keep them in their economic rut (by their own hand) largely so they have to continue to face the music in more important matters regarding their people. Things they are extremely incompetent on.

Simply having a gross domestic savings of ~ 1 trillion USD compared to ~20 billion (for them) i.e ~50 times more (though our population is "just" 6 times more) ....is not good enough.

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

That needs to become 100 times more and continue to grow past that....as this is what finances investment and more realised production...and replicate as far as possible a south korea vs north korea situation at a much larger scale.

That is ultimately the only way to grow and spend on competence quantitatively and qualitatively in military + security realm so results can be more favourable/guaranteed versus real, likely and potential adversaries.

 

[Ryder]

Indian Politics is fcking hilarious

I laughed so bad at this lmaoooo

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Happy Diwali.

 

[Nilgiri]

Happy Diwali.

Thank you buddy and likewise.

Diwali greetings to all members.