Pakistan Air-Force Decoded: Pakistan's JF-17 Thunder

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Argentina is looking to follow Myanmar and Nigeria, and add Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder to its air force. Has Pakistan finally cracked the fighter jet code that has long eluded other developing countries? Here is the JF-17 Thunder decoded.
 

Reviewbrah

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Imagine if Turkey, Pakistan etc. had a joint program to design and build a medium multi-role combat aircraft costing half of TF-X and economical to operate it. It could be perfect for countries who want a step up from JF-17 but also do not want to buy expensive western aircraft or buy Russian aircraft.
 

Nilgiri

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Decoded: Leverage off Chinese MIC entirely, throw half funds, FC-1 rebadged.
 

Philip the Arab

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Why does TRT make these random videos? :ROFLMAO:


Seriously though, JF-17 B3 would be good for the Egyptian air force with offsets, in this case China must help Egypt with radar, and missile tech. China has already let Egypt license produce YLC-6M, I'm sure China can help with this matter.
 
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Decoded: Leverage off Chinese MIC entirely, throw half funds, FC-1 rebadged.
At least pakistan can produce a jet that can met their requirements Unlike india whos jet tejas didn't even liked by their own air force and haven't made any good numbers in the Indian air force?
 

Nilgiri

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At least pakistan can produce a jet that can met their requirements Unlike india whos jet tejas didn't even liked by their own air force and haven't made any good numbers in the Indian air force?

Its like saying the IAF can produce the SU-30 to meet their requirements...just because most of it is "produced" in India.

No one reasonable would think to call it Indian aircraft.

Certain expectations of countries are there I suppose....when (per year) one gets about a dozen patents granted internationally and the other gets several thousands.....betraying the population ratio by magnitudes.

As for Tejas, you can read the Tejas thread in Indian section for yourself, you are way out of date.
 

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Argentina is looking to follow Myanmar and Nigeria, and add Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder to its air force. Has Pakistan finally cracked the fighter jet code that has long eluded other developing countries? Here is the JF-17 Thunder decoded.

The JF17 worked in Pakistan's favour.

When it comes to warfare even the cheapest weapon can become the equaliser.
 
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Manomed

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Its like saying the IAF can produce the SU-30 to meet their requirements...just because most of it is "produced" in India.

No one reasonable would think to call it Indian aircraft.

Certain expectations of countries are there I suppose....when (per year) one gets about a dozen patents granted internationally and the other gets several thousands.....betraying the population ratio by magnitudes.

As for Tejas, you can read the Tejas thread in Indian section for yourself, you are way out of date.
About those Su-30s weren't you guys produced them so poorly they all crashing over the place ? JF-17 is produced cooperatively by china and pakistan using both Pakistani and chinese avionics Lets look at the tejas using mish mash of stuff bought from all over the globe but still there is just a 1 fleet of tejas fighters lol
 

Nilgiri

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The JF17 worked in Pakistan's favour.

When it comes to warfare even the cheapest weapon can become the equaliser.

I agree with this overall. Pakistan has done reasonably with the situation it got and leveraged it (the close alliance with PRC) to get a decent airframe to fill out its squadrons it can take forward too.
 

Nilgiri

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About those Su-30s weren't you guys produced them so poorly they all crashing over the place ?
Like I'll bite your "bait" I guess? Have you done an actual number crunch vis a vis %'s relative to flight hours of the platform in IAF use? Something you know how to do or even what that is?

JF-17 is produced cooperatively by china and pakistan using both Pakistani and chinese avionics
Sure whatever you say.

JF-17_Fighter_Hinged_Cockpit_1.jpg


I'm sure you will have lot better luck (compared to the dozens of Pakistanis I have chatted with that draw a blank when push comes to shove) showing and explaining the dearth of Pakistan underlying research relevant to the platform (including "avionics").

Then you can show me the facilities they have developed regarding that.

In the process, you hopefully don't end up exposing things like why Pakistan sits on large array of acquired (they call it "indigenous") ballistic missile technology yet is unable to develop even a small part of it into a basic sounding rocket program (quite unlike Iran and North Korea who have moved on to pretty big things past that).

Lets look at the tejas using mish mash of stuff bought from all over the globe but still there is just a 1 fleet of tejas fighters lol

OK if you say so.

You are after all the one that said quite openly you hate India because its degenerate (or something like that).

Would you out of interest think a conversation on anything related to Turkey would be productive with someone that said the same thing about Turkey?

Or you are a special exceptional case on this?

Please don't quote me any more and try your best to ignore every post I make.

It is a waste of your time, and infinitely worse....my time.
 

Bilal Khan(Quwa) 

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Like I'll bite your "bait" I guess? Have you done an actual number crunch vis a vis %'s relative to flight hours of the platform in IAF use? Something you know how to do or even what that is?


Sure whatever you say.

JF-17_Fighter_Hinged_Cockpit_1.jpg


I'm sure you will have lot better luck (compared to the dozens of Pakistanis I have chatted with that draw a blank when push comes to shove) showing and explaining the dearth of Pakistan underlying research relevant to the platform (including "avionics").

Then you can show me the facilities they have developed regarding that.

In the process, you hopefully don't end up exposing things like why Pakistan sits on large array of acquired (they call it "indigenous") ballistic missile technology yet is unable to develop even a small part of it into a basic sounding rocket program (quite unlike Iran and North Korea who have moved on to pretty big things past that).



OK if you say so.

You are after all the one that said quite openly you hate India because its degenerate (or something like that).

Would you out of interest think a conversation on anything related to Turkey would be productive with someone that said the same thing about Turkey?

Or you are a special exceptional case on this?

Please don't quote me any more and try your best to ignore every post I make.

It is a waste of your time, and infinitely worse....my time.
Having spoken to folks who did R&D work in Pakistan...indigenous proposals were laughed out of the room.

The way these guys make it sound, it's as if the same stupid jokes on forums (e.g. about LCA) materialized in real life when Pakistani scientists proposed indigenous gas turbine programs, rocket motor programs, and other initiatives to the top brass. There's zero incentive on Pakistan's part to develop things from the ground-up, even though there are individuals with the drive and capacity to manage it.

The only reason why the nuclear program was more indigenous was that the R&D base was pre-existing thanks to the Atoms for Peace program. Basically, it had a couple of decades to grow without the interference of generals. As early as 1948, the private sector in Pakistan was taking the initiative to assemble jet fighters (and move to local manufacturing), but the RPAF/PAF never backed it. The latter literally rage-purchased Supermarine Attackers instead of patiently working with the UK to bring in-house production of a newer jet (like India had done). We couldn't even be bothered to work with South Africa on a Cheetah-type upgrade of the Mirages, even though we ended up flying them for 50-60+ years. Like...What. The. Hell.

Sadly, our military production units and R&D bureaus are headed up by generals who weren't good enough to command frontline units. They needed work, and the GHQ sent them to head up entities they're not equipped or qualified to manage. In turn, senior engineers and scientists who do want something in this life worked their way out of the country into Boeing, Textron, LM, etc.

It's so comical the only logical solution may involve commissioning civilian R&D people as military officers so that they can do their work and climb up the ladder to 'command' posts within their own organizations (ala Galactic Empire from Star Wars). Pakistani mentality is extremely shallow. If we say, "generals aren't fit for this work," the refrain is, "well, do you want corrupt politicians to do it?" And I'm here wondering, "bhai...we have tier-A professionals in Deloitte, PWC, Textron, LM and countless other places ready to serve their country if given the opportunity." We have individuals who can become Satya Nadellas and Sundar Pichais, yet, ironically, they're getting more opportunity to grow from those guys than any Pakistani gov't or military entity (for reference: my cousin got a dev job at Facebook thanks to the mentorship he got from an Indian engineer during his internship).

TLDR: the LCA is a fine program that suffered due to the IAF moving goalposts and the unavailability of critical COTS inputs in the 1990s. As a result, India had to develop a lot of key subsystems (e.g., flight control) indigenously, which resulted in delays. The LCA might struggle out of the gate (temporarily, it'll hit its stride by Mk2), but the ORCA, TEDBF and AMCA should sail smoothly provided babu-tape/management doesn't get in the way. OTOH, Pakistan dropped the ball on aircraft development by scuttling homegrown R&D efforts through mismanagement, lack of funding or poor support. The go-to solution in Pakistan is China.

We Pakistanis need to become scathing in our criticism of our establishment. We can do so, so much more. In fact, I genuinely believe that with the right leadership and societal self-discipline + vision, we can become like Japan or South Korea within a generation. Unfortunately, we're driving the best talent out of the country, and letting our leaders (including generals) off the hook at every turn.
 
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We Pakistanis need to become scathing in our criticism of our establishment. We can do so, so much more. In fact, I genuinely believe that with the right leadership and societal self-discipline + vision, we can become like Japan or South Korea within a generation. Unfortunately, we're driving the best talent out of the country, and letting our leaders (including generals) off the hook at every turn.

Please keep in mind that we have this system by active and conscious design.
 

Kaptaan

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We Pakistanis need to become scathing in our criticism of our establishment.
Arguably there is far more criticism of the Pakistani establishent then you will find in India. This applies in the political arena, media and their think tank community. You would struggle to find such establishment haters as Ayesha Siddiqa , Hussain Haqqani etc who actually have made of profession and living on baiting the Pakistani establishent. In fact there is a cottage industry that literally lives of propaganda dollars dished out for all things Pak bashing.

Then you have the media. Papers like Dawn literally are anti-military and not a day goes by with their contributors tearing away at the military or who they percieve as soft on the military like Imran Khan.

I live in UK and I can say with certitude that you would struggle to find another country with such a self hating ecosystem. The media in UK is far more converged with the establishment then in Pakistan leave alone USA where it at times looks like the offical mouthpiece of the militay-industrial complex or their corporate backers/financiers.

Ps. Some of the shenanigans pulled off by the hate cottage industry in Pakistan would land them in jail if same was done in Turkey. Dare the various Turkish media try it. Or dare a Turkish variant of Ayesha Siddiqa mouth off against the Turkish military or establishment and see what would happen.
 

Kaptaan

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Having spoken to folks who did R&D work in Pakistan...indigenous proposals were laughed out of the room.
Having spoken to more then a 'few folks' at R&D they were positively thirsting for indigenous developent like a alcoholic cries for a sup after spending six months in Saudi desert.

Just saying ......
 

Kaptaan

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Pakistan sits on large array of acquired (they call it "indigenous") ballistic missile technology
And India reinvented the wheel did it. All of Indian defence products are product of 'acquired' technology mostly from Russia, Israel and increasing US that is 'sexed' up and tagged Indian.
 

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One of the unintended consequences of the JF-17 project is and this can be seen on this thread - the saltiness in India about this plane. Jesus, Mary, Joseph ...... !
 

Nilgiri

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And India reinvented the wheel did it. All of Indian defence products are product of 'acquired' technology mostly from Russia, Israel and increasing US that is 'sexed' up and tagged Indian.

Who said anything about re-inventing the wheel. Once you buy a wheel that you lost track of how to do....obviously you take it further.

It is telling that both Iran and North Korea under far more extreme sanctions and self-imposed insularity....are able to convert BM tech to sounding rockets and then much more.

Pakistan is literally the only country that sits on it stuck-fast....with few to deeply query it.

Saqrkh has produced quite a good reply to read that you might want to re-read.

He seems to have an engineering background and understands the importance of good delegation and keeping production lines and process flow well set up, active and warm.

This is the essence in the end for any nation-state's progress and capability.

A good coordination between the powerful and intelligent (since these rarely intersect) that it has in fairly relative scarce numbers to start out in its first 50 - 100 years or so.

A good coordination between those that philosophize and those that are practical also follow this (since those also rarely intersect).

Instead what has Pakistan done by its very formation process and objectives resolution?...and much more after it to hold it all up?

The results bear out.

Sometimes it comes quite directly like when the Ahmadi general making significant inroads in chamb was peculiarly and curiously replaced by that paragon of competence and virtue that was Yahya Khan....because something about ahmadis just doesnt sit right with the nationstate's vaunted first principles.

Other times its a longer process with the final resting legacy of those like Abdus Salam or how every other large scientific/technical mind (of any dissonance which is important in the larger process) gets harried and squelched in some fashion.

This extends to sectors requiring competence in general. The ability to not just acquire but take things further.

Anyone can learn the basic rules of chess you see. But how do you get better at it?

Persia and India have (just like the BM---> space rocket stuff)....whats the hold up with the countries in between them that have the same raw earlier legacy surely? Afghanistan has a pretty large excuse, but surely not the other one too?

The DHA much prefers creating, indulging and playing love-hate nurture-abandon patty cake cycles with such as:

- the talented MQM singer and his many variants spread in other areas
- the circus parade of hyper-religious beardos who all hate some large portion of other people (local and foreign)...all with some abc name like TTP, TLP, LEJ, PMQ etc etc etc...
- the running patrician ensemble of bhutto, sharif and now khan when khaki default gets too much accumulated flak


You see in the end DHA has a complex not all that different conceptually to yours (just directed differently).

While you have issues with (geographic-cultural) gangu-origin pakistanis like AQ Khan, Musharraf and even your founding father Jinnah.

....their issue lies with another delineation on religion (since thats what the system has set up) and all that inevitably involves.

It is really only the Bengalis that had enough counter weight and distance to pull away from its suffocation...especially after the final outburst.

The rest have to suffer it and make do with it....and a number form further conspiracies and theories to account for it.

This gets in the way of pretty much everything that needs cleaner mental acumen setting.

Don't believe me, see where everything stands another 10 years from now....and then 10 years after that. Simple.
 

Bilal Khan(Quwa) 

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Arguably there is far more criticism of the Pakistani establishent then you will find in India. This applies in the political arena, media and their think tank community. You would struggle to find such establishment haters as Ayesha Siddiqa , Hussain Haqqani etc who actually have made of profession and living on baiting the Pakistani establishent. In fact there is a cottage industry that literally lives of propaganda dollars dished out for all things Pak bashing.

Then you have the media. Papers like Dawn literally are anti-military and not a day goes by with their contributors tearing away at the military or who they percieve as soft on the military like Imran Khan.

I live in UK and I can say with certitude that you would struggle to find another country with such a self hating ecosystem. The media in UK is far more converged with the establishment then in Pakistan leave alone USA where it at times looks like the offical mouthpiece of the militay-industrial complex or their corporate backers/financiers.

Ps. Some of the shenanigans pulled off by the hate cottage industry in Pakistan would land them in jail if same was done in Turkey. Dare the various Turkish media try it. Or dare a Turkish variant of Ayesha Siddiqa mouth off against the Turkish military or establishment and see what would happen.

Not accurate.

The Pakistani media aren't 'anti-military' because they're critiquing the establishment, but because they play the tunes of an equally bad counter-force (i.e., the political class). Basically, the whole media angle is literally just noise; it doesn't mean anything. The only ones getting offended are literally the ones taking sides between these two forces, but for those who truly bleed green, the charade is totally irrelevant.

They (politicians, generals) are opponents, yes, but at the end of the day, they're in the same housing establishments, their kids are in the same foreign universities, and the very actors themselves get their heart conditions treated in the West.

If we want true accountability, then we'd throw the book at our generals on one end, and ban every single political party in Pakistan on the other. The entire system at the top is corrupt and regressive. The longer this stupidity continues, the more average Pakistanis will disconnect. We're on the road to self-balkanization.

As for Turkey and India, their respective establishments cleaned house, that's the difference.
 

Nilgiri

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Not accurate.

The Pakistani media aren't 'anti-military' because they're critiquing the establishment, but because they play the tunes of an equally bad counter-force (i.e., the political class). Basically, the whole media angle is literally just noise; it doesn't mean anything. The only ones getting offended are literally the ones taking sides between these two forces, but for those who truly bleed green, the charade is totally irrelevant.

They (politicians, generals) are opponents, yes, but at the end of the day, they're in the same housing establishments, their kids are in the same foreign universities, and the very actors themselves get their heart conditions treated in the West.

If we want true accountability, then we'd throw the book at our generals on one end, and ban every single political party in Pakistan on the other. The entire system at the top is corrupt and regressive. The longer this stupidity continues, the more average Pakistanis will disconnect. We're on the road to self-balkanization.

As for Turkey and India, their respective establishments cleaned house, that's the difference.

It is imperative to study and understand what a nationstate is and what a nation is....

i.e What the (key) differences and (assumed) similarities are between the two concepts....

This occupies at least one reasonable decade of time for a reasonable mind IMO and from my experience.

Once you see it from that perspective, almost any country's present situation (success, failure and all in between) makes a great deal of rooted sense.

India in many if not most regards is in process of nationstate formation (and I would actually argue it is in the early phase still) and there are massive pressures and counter-pressures involved with this as time goes by and some certain large failures accumulate.

This is important as for the large part Indian people have not grappled with this sufficiently to exert suitable pressure on the bureaucracy (which is the spine of the whole nationstate in the end).

What we have is very loose fitting clothing cut and hemmed for altogether more nourished and balanced theory+application of the nationstate in other climes and contexts.

This fit has been worse still in Pakistan's case....as it has imbued more unnecessary additions to its nationstate concept (which must be minimalist and efficient as possible to rational defined existence)....and this has dragged it at consequence into zones it can ill-afford to be especially for its size, placement and context.

There lies the difference....and that is the singular and only distaste I have in the end for Pakistan....its upper echelons failure of both imagination and realisation.

Depending how this thread goes, I might give interesting story of a Pakistani colleague of mine here in Canada. One of the most brilliant types (intellectually) in general I have come across....and what saddens him a great deal about Pakistan....that he has told me across quite a length of time.

It is minds like his that Pakistan could sorely have used and continue to use.... if it knew how to (delegate and prioritise and do things professionally and merit-based)....but it doesn't know how to (at least not yet)....and he stays firmly rooted here....in a place where brilliant minds are not so scarce.

This is the problem in a nutshell. It haunts every developing nationstate especially early on....but the degrees do differ.
 

VCheng

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It is imperative to study and understand what a nationstate is and what a nation is....

And then there is the "security state", which is particularly stunted form by design, kind of like a daula shah ka chooha of a country.
 

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