TR Defence Exports & Updates

[TR_123456]

They still need money for the shipyards, as seen by Sedef courting Belgians to build Damen designed Belgian ships in Turkey. This barely ever happens.

I'd think they evaluated shipyards screaming for money and navy's need for frigates asap and decided on a course of action that works for everyone.

Who says Sedef is courting them and not the other way around?

 

[dBSPL]

No,those ships were to be made in Romania by Damen Romania.
The costs were low already.
Something must be wrong at the Damen shipyards in Romania.




How does this answer the below question?


''We need shipyard capacity for ourselves, why would we "rent" it out to another country so said shipyard builds their ships which aren't even Turkish products.''

The Romania branch of Damen only builds 'Empty Hull'. Yes, Damen Galati in Romania is contracted to build the raw steel hulls of the ASW frigates. And Romania's labor costs are indeed lower comparing to Netherlands. However, an empty steel hull is only about 20-25% of a modern frigate's total cost (labor + materials).

The real bottleneck is in Netherlands. Once the hulls are finished in Romania, they are towed to Damen Naval’s main shipyard in Vlissingen, Netherlands. This is where the real complex work happens: outfitting, installing the AWWS by Thales, and integrating the battle management software and dozens of other systems. So the 7-year delay is not because Romanian workers can't weld steel fast enough. The delay is happening because Damen Naval and its European software subcontractors are facing massive integration crises. And they cannot finalize the blueprint designs because the combat management software and next-gen radar integration are taking years longer than expected.

Because of these software and engineering delays in the Netherlands, engineering hour costs have skyrocketed due to inflation. Damen’s similar F126 frigate program for Germany is facing the exact same structural, software-driven delays(at least four years) right now. Furthermore, the total cost of the project is expected to increase by over 50%.

I am definitely not claiming that these ships will be equipped with Turkish weapons or Turkish radars. Belgium will of course keep its own choice of Western systems (Thales, Raytheon, etc.).

My point about shipyard and engineering capability and fully integrated service. The current 7-year crisis in the Netherlands is not because the Thales radar is not work; it is because the Dutch shipyard infrastructure faces a massive shortage of engineering hours and labor to physically install, wire, and integrate those complex systems into the hull on schedule. When the Belgian Minister looks at Türkiye, he sees shipyards that have proven they can take any system the customer requests (whether it's Western, local, or mixed, as seen in recent Ukrainian and Pakistani corvette/frigate programs), install them onto the ship, test them, and deliver a combat-ready platform within 36 months. So, to be very clear: The hull can be welded anywhere, the systems will remain Western, but the integrating shipyard might need to change if Europe wants these ships before 2034. I believe that, that is why Türkiye is on the table.

 

[Zafer]

You know, trying to spin every decision as if it is the right one is getting old.
If one wants people to respect one one cant be blindly accepting following agreeing(with) everything our leaders do regarding our Armed Forces.
We need to be able to criticize everything that is wrong.
Selling those Istif class frigates was wrong and they knew it so they came up with a solution.

You claimed it was the right decision then and now you come up with this statement:''Türkiye is becoming more assertive in our claims of sea regions and need to backup with more navy.''


So,what is it now?
If they sell them its for money for our shipyards but if it we keep them its good for our power projection.
Do you see a contradiction in these statements?

I am supporting decisions of the leadership and I am asking for more.

There is a slippery ground in the geopolitical power games and we have to juggle our assets wisely. Our capabilities and responsibilities are changing quickly. As the MoD disclosed last week there are 4-5 other countries that are asking from us to get the same treatment as Somalia is getting. So we need to allocate our resources to a wider geography stretching thin little by little. These are unforeseen quick developments you can't closely keep up with. So we need to re-arrange our priorities. Add to that that we need to determine our next steps in our coastal seas for particularly hydrocarbon explorations and other interests and respond to developing circumstances affected by all the players playing in this circus. There will be more shuffling of assets in our disposal as developments unfold.

You need to consider that we have a bigger footprint now than just a few years ago and we will probably have an even bigger footprint in the coming years. We are an industrialized country and we have ample room for growth still. We can respond to demands from friendly nations and expand our industrial base. We can do this. Consider the Korea's offer to the US to make 20 frigates per year for them alone; yet where are we, like 4-5 a year. This capability has to grow.

However we don't need the larger navy to respond to the next door neighbor Greece, our artillery can take care of that. So Greece buying this and that is not a big concern for us, in my thinking. But at times my thinking does not prevail when you need to address the perception rather than the reality, so you want to look big to deter the old school way.

 

[TR_123456]

I am supporting decisions of the leadership and I am asking for more.

There is a slippery ground in the geopolitical power games and we have to juggle our assets wisely. Our capabilities and responsibilities are changing quickly. As the MoD disclosed last week there are 4-5 other countries that are asking from us to get the same treatment as Somalia is getting. So we need to allocate our resources to a wider geography stretching thin little by little. These are unforeseen quick developments you can't closely keep up with. So we need to re-arrange our priorities. Add to that that we need to determine our next steps in our coastal seas for particularly hydrocarbon explorations and other interests and respond to developing circumstances affected by all the players playing in this circus. There will be more shuffling of assets in our disposal as developments unfold.

You need to consider that we have a bigger footprint now than just a few years ago and we will probably have an even bigger footprint in the coming years. We are an industrialized country and we have ample room for growth still. We can respond to demands from friendly nations and expand our industrial base. We can do this. Consider the Korea's offer to the US to make 20 frigates per year for them alone; yet where are we, like 4-5 a year. This capability has to grow.

However we don't need the larger navy to respond to the next door neighbor Greece, our artillery can take care of that. So Greece buying this and that is not a big concern for us, in my thinking. But at times my thinking does not prevail when you need to address the perception rather than the reality, so you want to look big to deter the old school way.

Lets say i acknowledge your answer.

 

[Saithan]

Until TN receives her Frigates I am not counting my eggs yet.

 

[Nutuk]

Currently all shipyards are full with orders. @Anmdt touched on this multiple times, we sure as hell don't need to built ships from Damen for the Belgium for our shipyards to survive.

Like I said they want to benefit from our industry they can order Turkish ships with their own subsystems anything else they can fuck off.

I concur with you when it is about SEDEF shipyard that is already busy with building ships for our navy.

But!

We have about 70 shipyards, there are many shipyards available to take the job. Why say no against business. Let them come and bring in their money and orders, shipyards like: Dearsan, RMK marine etc. etc. Never chase away a customer (let Norway do that!)

 

[Sanchez]

Who says Sedef is courting them and not the other way around?

Because it would be contrary to how any business works. Business seeks business to make money.

I concur with you when it is about SEDEF shipyard that is already busy with building ships for our navy.

It really isn't. AFAIK Sedef currently only have 2 Istifs it's building. İzmit already launched and is set to be delivered by mid 2027, while Karadeniz is set to be delivered by 2029 at the latest, this is Karadeniz from November, 6 months ago.

Until first Tepe gets going, TAIS won't be ordered the follow up ships. Even then, it's not clear if it will be in the same 1 each format like we saw in Istif. Tepe is a much larger, and much more expensive ship. I don't really expect work to start on the first private shipyard Tepe to start before 2030-31, maybe even later. So Sedef must chase exports and civilian vessel contracts in the meanwhile. Sedef built the Anadolu, it can easily build 3 design ready frigates in 3-4 years.

 

[Nutuk]

Well I do of course not know the capacity use of TAIS and SEDEF, if they have room they should take the order but if not there are still plenty of Turkish shipyards to step in.

My main argument is we should not chase away customers. We try all types of limbo dancing to get market share and should not turn away potential customers while we have shipyard capacity overload (70 shipyards!)

 

[Yasar_TR]

while we have shipyard capacity overload (70 shipyards

Bro, of those 70 shipyards, how many can build 6 to 7 ton frigates? More importantly how many have got the expertise and approval to build ships to NATO standards?

Please see my below post #1644

Navy|News & Discussions

The question was not related to the ongoing discussion in the thread. I'm curious if we're building extra capacity or this mantra of "39 ships at the same time" is the highest we're ever gonna get The point is there is no 39 simultaneous construction - rationale dictates that if it existed, we...

defencehub.live

 

[Nutuk]

Don't know but Kuasar marine has a design of 5500 ton frigate
Dearsan F142 design is 5500 ton design

I suppose we have several shipyards that can or have the ambition

 

[Saithan]

I would like to point out that shipyards like so many workplaces employ more people according to the workload, but once that workload is lessened it's either laying off people or finding more work.

My previous posts should be seen in this regard. Why employ and go up to 100% capacity if you can't fill up the workbook for at least 15-20 years at 100%. Working at 80% capacity for 3-6 more years would be more beneficial.

Hence why I pointed out the need to fill up productionline on TN shipyard to ensure production and keep people employed.

 

[Sanchez]

Huh, MMT-76 in Georgian service.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2059241643853717968

 

[OPTIMUS]

Don't know but Kuasar marine has a design of 5500 ton frigate
Dearsan F142 design is 5500 ton design

I suppose we have several shipyards that can or have the ambition

Quasar is a design office. Nothing else.

But their design promises a lot. Especially the armament is of destroyer class. Above all, when it comes to air defense, a class of its own, unmatched. Because at this tonnage, the other ships with ASW capability are in the front plan.

 

[Nutuk]

If it is up to me SSB should work to it to get the Belgian order (I do not know if this is possible since the design of the ships belong to Damen) and use this large ship building project to get a few more shipyards to the level of being able to construct large warships. We need more shipyards that can build big ships. Make it a win win situation.

 

[Sanchez]

After Georgia, Syria is the second neighbor to operate BMC Amazon.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2012826215476846889

After Amazon and Cobra II, Syria also started operating Nurol NMS, and with 7.62 Sarp. Syria is now operating armored vehicles from all three major Turkish 4x4 builders. Makes sense as these firms are one of the best in delivering in time. We'll probably see a FNSS venture into the country in the future as well with their amphibious capabilities. Very Turkish coded bayram/eid video as well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2059515608060793120

 

[Pokemonte13]

I know its bought with Saudi/Qatari/Gulf money but still sad that they get these new vehicles and our army still uses old M113 and ACV15 and neither buys new nor upgrades the old stuff. Its not a money problem as navy buys more or less anything it wants basically no vision.

 

[Sanchez]

I know its bought with Saudi/Qatari/Gulf money but still sad that they get these new vehicles and our army still uses old M113 and ACV15 and neither buys new nor upgrades the old stuff. Its not a money problem as navy buys more or less anything it wants basically no vision.

Doesn't really track tbh. Syria is upgrading from Toyotas and as you said regional neighbours are helping with financing because we need a stable Syria, they are dealing with ISIS cells everyday. M113s and ACVs are ancient, but they are still active vehicles in active use. And the 8x8s and tracked AFVs that are set to replace them are very, very expensive compared to these 4x4s.

 

[Anmdt]

Currently all shipyards are full with orders. @Anmdt touched on this multiple times, we sure as hell don't need to built ships from Damen for the Belgium for our shipyards to survive.

Like I said they want to benefit from our industry they can order Turkish ships with their own subsystems anything else they can fuck off.

Except Sedef Shipyard, i guess. Remaining of the major shipyards had 5 years booked ahead.
Though, i couldn't verify if they have officially talked about intentions of building Belgian ships in Sedef. Damen has shipyards around the world, and also in Romania. Altogether Belgium might be interested in some another design as well.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Except Sedef Shipyard, i guess. Remaining of the major shipyards had 5 years booked ahead.
Though, i couldn't verify if they have officially talked about intentions of building Belgian ships in Sedef. Damen has shipyards around the world, and also in Romania. Altogether Belgium might be interested in some another design as well.

As you have rightly put your finger on, the real reason the frigates are delayed have got a lot to do with design issues. These were to be large 6400ton ASW frigates. But the start of new delivery timeline has now been set as 2034. Plus the original 600million Euro price per ship has increased to 1billion Euros with a prospective 250million Euro additional increase in line.

The design was supposed to include additional future growth possibilities added to the ships. This is causing major delays as the ships are far from meeting original requirements.

Design delays impact frigate deliveries for the Netherlands, Belgium

Design delays mean deliveries of new Anti-Submarine Warfare Frigates (ASWFs) for the navies of The Netherlands and Belgium will start three years later than previously...

www.janes.com

This isn’t the first time Damien has failed. The German F126 programme they were in charge of was delayed too, due to IT interface problems etc. so much so that the Dutch government had interfered as well.

Netherlands Provides Support to Damen Naval as German Frigates are Delayed

Reports in the Dutch media and by Bloomberg indicate that the Netherlands government has decided to provide support to help Damen Naval as it works t...

maritime-executive.com

This is a good opportunity for us. It could be great experience gain to work to produce a large frigate like these for our private shipyards.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Isn’t f126 dead I thought they were buying meko 200 instead? (F126 overall a crappy ship for that price tag)