TR Defence Exports & Updates

[Afif]

could you summarise?

It is basically talking about that, Anka Beat the american MQ9B and Chinese wing loong ii in the Malaysian tender.

 

[Afif]

Malaysian Defense Minister Turkey passenger for MİLGEM Corvette​

News CenterMarch 8, 2023
1 minute reading time

Malaysian Defense Minister Mohamad Hasan will pay a visit to Turkey on the procurement of MİLGEM Corvettes for the Malaysian Navy.
Under the Malaysian Navy's Coastal Mission Ship (LMS) Batch II Procurement Program; Malaysian Defense Minister Mohamad Hasan will visit Turkey. According to the information obtained; Defense Minister Hasan, in line with the instructions of Malaysian Prime Minister Enver İbrahim, will visit Turkey to hold meetings with Turkish authorities and representatives of the defense industry sector.

The main subject of the visit is the Coastal Mission Ship (LMS) Batch II Program, initiated by the Malaysian Navy to procure a Corvette type warship. Within the scope of the program, Malaysia aims to procure 3 corvettes in the first phase and 8 corvettes in the final phase. The budget allocated for 3 corvettes to be procured within the scope of the first phase of the program is approximately 530 million dollars.

MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette
According to the information obtained; Malaysia will make the procurement in the 'Government to Government Agreement (G2G)' format under the LMS Batch II Programme. Finally, the G2G agreement in this area was signed between the Presidency of Defense Industries and the Ukrainian authorities. Within the scope of this G2G agreement , STM company from Turkey exported more than 1 MİLGEM Corvette to Ukraine.Shipbuilding activities are currently ongoing. On the other hand, Pakistan became the first export customer of MİLGEM Corvettes as a result of the G2G agreement signed between the Ministry of National Defense and the Pakistan Ministry of Defense.

LMS Batch II Features​

Corvettes to be procured under the LMS Batch II Program; It is planned to have a length of 80 to 99 meters, surface-to-surface missile systems, 76mm main battery gun, 30mm secondary guns and air defense missiles.
Currently, there are 4 MİLGEM ADA Class Corvettes in the inventory of the Turkish Navy. Construction activities of 4 corvettes for Pakistan and more than one for Ukraine continue. In addition, the MİLGEM İSTİF Class Frigate, which was developed based on the MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette design, is planned to be delivered to the Turkish Navy this year. Construction activities for 3 additional STIF Class Frigates will start this year.

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Source: This news is the special news of SavunmaSanayiST.com. It can also be used by other news organizations, provided that it is taken exactly and the source is cited .

 

[Huelague]

Do we made any deals with Brunei?

 

[Afif]

I think if this procurement is realized, a bigger deal for next 5 ships could follow up. ( with ToT to build them locally ) But hey ,there is a strong competition from Demen. They are offering their sigma design. It would interesting to watch which one Malaysia chooses. What @Anmdt Thinks?

 

[Ripley]

Do we made any deals with Brunei?

Thanks to you, I was curious myself.

I couldn’t find any particular arms deal between Brunei and Turkey but turns out that they maintain a small sized armed forces and main mission of all branches is to maintain peace and provide national security and policing.

They have a few light cargo planes and the rest is rotary wing platforms. No jet planes. SAR is the main duty.

Naval arm consists a few patrol boats. They ordered 3 corvettes 20 years ago from BAE and after a technical dispute they rejected the ships, the deal went to arbitration. The court decide in favor of the BAE *ouch!* and at that point, they must have had enough of it and as a result they talked to Lürssen of Germany to find a customer and good old Indonesia bought the ships at 1/2 price and I’m really happy for Indonesia.

Land forces is made of one brigade which consists three combat and one support battalion. There is a British military base manned by famous Gurkhas so it wouldn’t be false to assume that they rely on the British for their protection.

In summary, Turkish defense industry really doesn’t have much chance here, except maybe some small arms (side arms, special operation weapons, etc) and limited amount of tactical vehicles, considering the British already got a strong foothold and have an organic political and military tie.
If our shipyards itch them enough and arise their appetite maybe they can draw their interest to OPV vessels and even Ada class with lucrative offers.

 

[Ripley]

I think if this procurement is realized, a bigger deal for next 5 ships could follow up. ( with ToT to build them locally ) But hey ,there is a strong competition from Demen. They are offering their sigma design. It would interesting to watch which one Malaysia chooses. What @Anmdt Thinks?

Before @Anmdt answers your question, I wanna share some research if I may.

Their previous major ship project named LCS had a highly turbulent run.
It came to a stand still, literally stopped for 29 months!
After only three consecutive governments the construction resumed but although they are not really concerned for the schedule they are highly determined to keep the construction costs per ship below the “ceiling price”. So much so, they declared they wouldn’t pay any over costs but only the set ceiling price!
In fact, according to Shah Alam, a Malaysian defense writer, there is some doubt among defense circles whether they “can afford to build them (LMS Batch II) while at the same time salvaging the White Elephant aka LCS project.”

Et Tu LMS Batch II Part II - Malaysian Defence

SHAH ALAM: In the last post on the LMS Batch II I wrote about whether or not we can afford to build them while at the same time salvaging the White Elephant aka LCS project. Well I have been told that the original budget for the LMS II was something [...]

www.malaysiandefence.com

Considering, the two major friendly countries of the region, Malaysia and Indonesia, usually choose varying their weapon and electronic warfare systems on their vessels, i.e. go for different suppliers from different countries, it’s really difficult not to expect cost overruns.

Other than Damen, the major competition in the region, the financial model would also be a challenge.

 

[Heartbang]

Thanks to you, I was curious myself.

I couldn’t find any particular arms deal between Brunei and Turkey but turns out that they maintain a small sized armed forces and main mission of all branches is to maintain peace and provide national security and policing.

They have a few light cargo planes and the rest is rotary wing platforms. No jet planes. SAR is the main duty.

Naval arm consists a few patrol boats. They ordered 3 corvettes 20 years ago from BAE and after a technical dispute they rejected the ships, the deal went to arbitration. The court decide in favor of the BAE *ouch!* and at that point, they must have had enough of it and as a result they talked to Lürssen of Germany to find a customer and good old Indonesia bought the ships at 1/2 price and I’m really happy for Indonesia.

Land forces is made of one brigade which consists three combat and one support battalion. There is a British military base manned by famous Gurkhas so it wouldn’t be false to assume that they rely on the British for their protection.

In summary, Turkish defense industry really doesn’t have much chance here, except maybe some small arms (side arms, special operation weapons, etc) and limited amount of tactical vehicles, considering the British already got a strong foothold and have an organic political and military tie.
If our shipyards itch them enough and arise their appetite maybe they can draw their interest to OPV vessels and even Ada class with lucrative offers.

They might be considering to expand those armed forces.
CCP's "Nine Dash Line" claims in the South China Sea is making everybody anxious, Brunei included.

 

[Ripley]

They might be considering to expand those armed forces.
CCP's "Nine Dash Line" claims in the South China Sea is making everybody anxious, Brunei included.

Apparently the US mainly focuses her efforts against China through Taiwan and the rest of the region seems to be relegated to a minor theater of operations.
This alone is enough to make other countries of the region, like you said, anxious.
In the Brunei case, their population reaching annual military service age is around 15 to 30K. So, human resource is limited. They are a small and extremely rich country but even with an annual defense budget of around 5% of the national budget, they are roughly around $500M annual defense budget. It’s really hard to expand with such limitations.
However, they are keen on keeping their armed forces equipment pretty modern.
In my humble opinion, their best option in a worst case scenario, would be relying on other regional actors and Britain and fulfill supporting tasks for other actors.

 

[Heartbang]

In my humble opinion, their best option in a worst case scenario, would be relying on other regional actors and Britain and fulfill supporting tasks for other actors.

It will most likely go down as you said.
But we do have a knack of making state-of-the-art war machines that allow one to conduct a competent war with minimum humanitarian and economic cost upfront. Perhaps they are after such a solution in order to reliably bear their side of the allied work in a unified anti-CCP front.

 

[boredaf]

So, human resource is limited.

I think for countries like Brunei, focusing on unmanned platforms make a lot of sense. Especially if autonomous capabilities are improved soon, or some form of swarm capability that'd allow platforms to follow 1 leader and act accordingly or something like that. Especially for a rich country like Brunei replacing equipment is much easier than replacing people.

 

[Heartbang]

I think for countries like Brunei, focusing on unmanned platforms make a lot of sense. Especially if autonomous capabilities are improved soon, or some form of swarm capability that'd allow platforms to follow 1 leader and act accordingly or something like that. Especially for a rich country like Brunei replacing equipment is much easier than replacing people.

@Ripley My point exactly. Also mercenaries are a possibility with petrostates like Brunei, just like Saudi Arabia and UAE

 

[Ripley]

I think for countries like Brunei, focusing on unmanned platforms make a lot of sense. Especially if autonomous capabilities are improved soon, or some form of swarm capability that'd allow platforms to follow 1 leader and act accordingly or something like that. Especially for a rich country like Brunei replacing equipment is much easier than replacing people.

@Ripley My point exactly. Also mercenaries are a possibility with petrostates like Brunei, just like Saudi Arabia and UAE

Of course. This exactly is a perfect solution and I also agree 100% that TR defense industry is more than capable of providing custom tailored solutions for particular users.
To my knowledge, their UAV fleet designed only for security surveillance and is made up of 4 or 5 RQ-21 Blackjacks.
this clearly shows what a tremendous effort it would take to re-doctrinate and redesign their entire defense structure. But I agree with you both. If we could convince them to such a huge overhaul which would be no less than a quantum leap for such a small armed force.

 

[SavunmaSanayiST.com]

Malaysian Defense Minister Turkey passenger for MİLGEM Corvette​

News CenterMarch 8, 2023
1 minute reading time

Malaysian Defense Minister Mohamad Hasan will pay a visit to Turkey on the procurement of MİLGEM Corvettes for the Malaysian Navy.
Under the Malaysian Navy's Coastal Mission Ship (LMS) Batch II Procurement Program; Malaysian Defense Minister Mohamad Hasan will visit Turkey. According to the information obtained; Defense Minister Hasan, in line with the instructions of Malaysian Prime Minister Enver İbrahim, will visit Turkey to hold meetings with Turkish authorities and representatives of the defense industry sector.

The main subject of the visit is the Coastal Mission Ship (LMS) Batch II Program, initiated by the Malaysian Navy to procure a Corvette type warship. Within the scope of the program, Malaysia aims to procure 3 corvettes in the first phase and 8 corvettes in the final phase. The budget allocated for 3 corvettes to be procured within the scope of the first phase of the program is approximately 530 million dollars.

MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette
According to the information obtained; Malaysia will make the procurement in the 'Government to Government Agreement (G2G)' format under the LMS Batch II Programme. Finally, the G2G agreement in this area was signed between the Presidency of Defense Industries and the Ukrainian authorities. Within the scope of this G2G agreement , STM company from Turkey exported more than 1 MİLGEM Corvette to Ukraine.Shipbuilding activities are currently ongoing. On the other hand, Pakistan became the first export customer of MİLGEM Corvettes as a result of the G2G agreement signed between the Ministry of National Defense and the Pakistan Ministry of Defense.

LMS Batch II Features​

Corvettes to be procured under the LMS Batch II Program; It is planned to have a length of 80 to 99 meters, surface-to-surface missile systems, 76mm main battery gun, 30mm secondary guns and air defense missiles.
Currently, there are 4 MİLGEM ADA Class Corvettes in the inventory of the Turkish Navy. Construction activities of 4 corvettes for Pakistan and more than one for Ukraine continue. In addition, the MİLGEM İSTİF Class Frigate, which was developed based on the MİLGEM ADA Class Corvette design, is planned to be delivered to the Turkish Navy this year. Construction activities for 3 additional STIF Class Frigates will start this year.

---

Source: This news is the special news of SavunmaSanayiST.com. It can also be used by other news organizations, provided that it is taken exactly and the source is cited .

Turkish: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/malezya-savunma-bakani-milgem-korveti-icin-turkiye-yolcusu/

 

[Lordimperator]

Turkish: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/malezya-savunma-bakani-milgem-korveti-icin-turkiye-yolcusu/

Are they offering Dearsan c92 too?

 

[Ripley]

Are they offering Dearsan c92 too?

I believe there is not an offer yet.
What I understand is that, they’re more like shopping for a corvette. They’re looking for a corvette that will have a “length of 80 to 99 meters, surface-to-surface missile systems, 76mm main battery gun, 30mm secondary guns and air defense missiles.”
It’s a rather generic requirement if you ask me. So, yeah according to these, Dearsan C92 fits the bill, as well.

 

[Anmdt]

I think if this procurement is realized, a bigger deal for next 5 ships could follow up. ( with ToT to build them locally ) But hey ,there is a strong competition from Demen. They are offering their sigma design. It would interesting to watch which one Malaysia chooses. What @Anmdt Thinks?

Malaysia does not only seek the purchase the ships but also extensive ToT and know-how transfer altogether. Something similar to done within PN Milgem program.
The budget (as rumored) is $530 and it is impossible to purchase 3 corvettes for that price, yet alone the ToT and know-how they deman. They could go with Damen and Korea for something about that price but they will never be getting the high quality ToT or know-how. These two competitors offer variety of designs with flexible payloads (especially on machinery side) that reduces their base price remarkably by lowering the worthiness of the platform (not like the ship is in operable but the equipments or machinery is rather mid-grade, not top).

And they are not coming to purchase Ada-Class, they may also get C92 by Dearsan + certain amount of ToT and know-how transfer to design their own corvettes or follow-up frigates. Dearsan may start construction right away in Malaysia, same applies for Ada class only if STM is getting the deal.

As far as i know MSB (thus ASFAT) is resuming the talks with Malaysia, so STM is less likely.

If they put a little more money, they could get the OPV which is based on Ada-Class. Cheaper than Ada, but would give them a smooth transition to I-Class frigate if they intend to continue as follow up.

 

[Sanchez]

I wonder if that 530mil figure contains the full program cost with 3rd party components, like the radars, missiles and everything else between. If it does, No way we are winning this. It'd be a net loss fiscally.

 

[Anmdt]

I wonder if that 530mil figure contains the full program cost with 3rd party components, like the radars, missiles and everything else between. If it does, No way we are winning this. It'd be a net loss fiscally.

3rd party? If you are referring to weapon system and sensor suites, yes it is included. (Excluding dispensables like missiles, ammos, spares and training for crew-personnel, mainteance etc)

With AKDG or C92 and with the right configuration of sensor and weapon suites we stand a chance. With Ada class, we do not.

 

[what]

New SIPRI report is out:

https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/2303_at_fact_sheet_2022_v2.pdf

 

[Ripley]

New SIPRI report is out:

https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/2303_at_fact_sheet_2022_v2.pdf

Turkey now ranks at 19th among Global arms importers and her global arms import share dropped from 2.4% to 1.3% . This is a 49% decrease from the previous period.

I don’t how you guys read this, but I see a less dependent armed forces.