Pakistan defence.pk being closed off

Joe Shearer

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This seems to be a well moderated forum thanks to people like you. So I am sure we will have to stick within reason.

Just trying to generate a little enthusiasm among us new members.
Lage raho, kambakht bhai.
 

Joe Shearer

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"not Indian" is probably a way to sum it up but it's more than that. It's so convoluted that it's hard to describe but you feel it regardless.
Yes, I agree, that is just the start, there is more to it.
 
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Why not,they only have 30 more active members every day but cant control them,why can we?
Do you see much getting out of hand here?
Btw,they want to copy our ''moderator from every country'' rule.
Actually we used to have international mods on there.. but as Saiyan said, it all went to shit.

I'm not a jingoist, rather im apolitical.. but even the slightest criticism of anything related to pti would cause a sh.t storm of abuse.
It had indeed become another of those indian forum, except now everyone and anyone was the target.

Even men who laid down their lives for Pak were not spared.
 
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I am going to come back to this post. It is highly doubtful that its because of the army and the way the moderation is talking over there, it seems that the issue is something else although equally serious. Whenever something is something then it is done under the purview of the prosecuting department. I told them that if the issue is PTA (Pakistan Telecommunication Agency) related then i can file an application for purview of documents and get an injunction on absolute closure since we have the youtube judgment where if a website is educational, then its educational pages should not be closed to the public and only those pages which are contrary to the law should be removed from the cyber space. It seems the issue isnt related to PTA...

There is something i want to highlight. I held PDF at a high plate however it is important to note that PDF was never the leading narrative creator nor ever had the clout within the Pakistani community nor within the agency to be given such a role. They might have been looked into and watched just as thousands of other forums were looked into and watched but PDF was never ever part of ISPR national social media plans. Its just not big enough and it just does not have that reach. Let me expand on this a bit.
PDF always presented itself as a narrative creator but it never had the capacity nor capability to become one. ISPR saw massive reforms under General Asim Bajwa, different from the COAS qamar jawad bajwa, and he completely changed the ISPR and their focus was largely creation of media cells and social media groups to forward a narrative. This was back in 2013ish but his policy focus was largely to control the private media that had mushroomed in 2004 period. He controlled the massive twitter account which he refused to hand over to General Asif Ghafoor when he became the DGISPR in 2016. Asim bajwa focused funding on TV serials, patriotic movies, debates on media and controlling the media itself and succeeded quite alot and it was under his guidance that the invincible image of General Raheel Sharif was presented, the COAS under whom Operation Zarb e Azb was launched which greatly diminished the capability of terror groups to mount attacks in Pakistan. PDF played no role in the eulogizing of Raheel and it was entirely media and raheel was often pitied against Nawaz and Asim also played a great role in creation of Imran's image and as we know that in 2014 dharna how Nawaz outplayed Raheel which earned him the ire of the military institution. By 2016, Asim gave General Ghafoor, a well built and oiled media machine which he built on and we saw funding of songs and movies and ofcourse new news channels were launched and General Ghafoor saw the influencer rage and proceeded to include influencer support into the Pakistani imagery and General Babar Iftikhar and the current general ahmed sharif have continued these policies. The point is that nowhere was PDF ever important enough to be included within any strategic policy. They werent even any such tool in any policy. The reason is very simple. PDF has no clout nor actual representation of Pakistan. Think about most pakistanis on PDF are the diaspora and then the next group that maybe reaches into double figures of 10-12 are from Karachi with the next representation being from Mirpur azad kashmir. Just imagine can ten individuals hold any sway over a city as diverse as Karachi whose politics is extremely complicated. Take lahore for instance that is diverse but not as diverse as Karachi and that city is so politically complicated that the difference of politics between somebody from model town or defence or garden town and somebody from islampura, mughalpura, santanagar, krishanagar is insane. Their views, their reasons are just too different and thus the clout and influence needed is required to be just as influential and diverse. PDF didnt have that which is why it could never be used as a propaganda machine. It could never ever become a narrative maker despite how much they tried. Its just not big enough to be on the establishment map as a weapon.
So no i disagree quite vehemently with this statement that PDF was the narrative front force for the army. It wasnt even in the reserves.


Somebody has created a new forum however the management is looking into whether they should support it or not. I advised them that if they dont have stake in the website then they shouldnt back it because its a life lesson. If you dont have a stake and give your days and nights, a few years down the line, there is a chance you can get hit. Plus i doubt they will come here. The members that now inhabit the place, want a place where they can have a more relaxed atmosphere in terms of moderation and that wont work neither here nor on sinodefense because sinodefense is also quite strict and is vary of PDF members and the same here. Basically they desire a place where the moderation if more pakistani so that they can influence that moderation through emotional blackmail and mob pressure.

@TR_123456 my friend you pointed out that the new forum is following country moderator policy like we have it here but that is like prescribing Benadryl cough syrup for Stomach pains. The prescription is wrong because the standard of the forum didnt fall because the small 1% areas were not moderated properly or werent moderated by their own country men. The issue was and is the large population of abusive pakistani members who look to create pressure on moderation through mob actions and guilt trips. The issue was the policy that pakistani forum needs to be a creator and defender of a narrative which to this day has not been properly explained. If these issues are not looked into then its rinse and repeat.


Well lets see this is what i wrote there which should help

""""""""""""
It is indeed a very sad event and one that was avoidable. You have raised your issues and each is valid but it must be added that the forum was slowly descending into absolute chaos. In everything, i have found that there is a difference of method in speaking. There is a difference in saying "Please Eat" and "Stuff it into you #$%%^ mouth". The thing is that this forum slowly descended into chaos as initially it started to descend into mob rule with posters opening threads and calling for lynching of members and nationalities and those threads received massive popular support and when the same was not entertained, the mod and admins were criticized and even right now, you can see individuals calling out mods and admins as being on payroll and stuff. The descent into madness only rolled further and i remember stating quite openly that when we will have nobody else to hunt down, we will hunt each other and that is what happened. When everybody else was beaten black and blue, the internal hunts began. Political differences that were discussed with some level of civility morphed into abuses and taunts. If a member had posted something on one thread against an opinion carried by others, they would cyber bully him on other threads. If i remember correctly, it was called their patriotic duty and i also remember that this forum was presented by many to lead the patriotic imagery of the country. There were grand plans discussed and like patriotism itself, it became the cloak of the scoundrel. What was never understood was that slowly it killed the difference of opinion and eventually became a singular mouthpiece. There was only one voice that became exponentially worse when the removal of Imran Khan happened. When that happens, it stops being neutral but even that is fine. The Issue will always be, what it was before and that is the lack of civility among members. The abuse and the way they discussed any topic whatsoever. That will be the issue and that is the trigger. Yes there was an investigation and yes there is an investigation but it is not easy to create a case against a place that speaks in a civil and knowledgeable manner. When you abuse and depart from any civil nature then targeting you becomes all the more easier.

We used to criticize the army. I criticized the army here but everything was done in a civil manner. When you take pride in creation of derogatory terms then you know there is nothing left. People who are claiming this places greatness speak of a past that is long gone. When posters would post amazing threads on religious issues, political issues, legal issues and military issues. It was amazing and there was genuine effort but now, you cannot claim to look at the pyramids now and state that Egypt is great. It was great when it built the pyramids but that egypt is gone and the pyramids are history. Similarly as is this place."""""""""""

furthermore as nilgiri pointed out that they allowed too much power to individual posters and often the posters decided which way the forum should go. They were given way too much power and eventually it became witch hunts that went from individuals from other nationalities and then went to full blown campaigns against nationalities and then they started hunting down each other. The forum decided that it must become a front runner on a narrative and when you become a mouthpiece in such a manner, tolerance for difference of opinion simply ceases to exist and that is where it went downhill because everything on the contrary didnt just have to be refuted. It had to be attacked and removed no matter what. When the turks migrated away, the place became quite an echo chamber with intellectual indians already migrating away before and with the turks gone, the only ones left were the pakistanis and then the swords turned to each other. Narrative will always require the concept of the "Other" and so Anybody not absolutely supporting Imran was no longer welcome, Anybody supporting the military was no longer welcome and anybody saying to not abuse the judges, military or the state itself was no longer welcome. Infact it was also during this time that some posters of PDF became ultra islamic passing certificates on whether somebody was a kaffir or not. I remember that recently some members had started raising issues that using RIP or praying in the event of the death of a non-muslim is haram and they were quite abrasive about it and actively discouraged members from doing so. Then there were the sectarian issues with individuals who didnt agree to absolutely what the posters said were immediately being branded either heretics or from different sects or misguided. M.Sarmad over there faced it a few times and the only thing saving him is his extremely anti-establishment stance although i am guessing, in a couple of years, he would have been hounded out of there as well.

Four things really got me down about that place.
One was the hunt for Nilgiri. Now you may not know this but Nilgiri was quite the character on PDF and at one time was one of the most beloved members amongst pakistanis. You see what was the Achilles heel for pakistanis on that forum was Bangladesh. Previously known as East Pakistan, the region separated from Pakistan in 1971 after a civil war that claimed many lives. The region was economically, politically and militarily alienated by West Pakistan, modern day pakistan and martial laws didnt help. Eventually the situation erupted and the Mukti Bahini along with the Indian army fought with the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan and West Pakistan which resulted in an absolute victory for India and Mukti Bahini as the garrison in East Pakistan surrendered when the capital of East Pakistan, Dhaka fell. Bangladesh eventually went on to stabilize its economy. Now Nilgiri used to argue with bangladeshi posters and those arguments were amazing about their economy, their political situation and eventually even the civil war itself regarding the numbers claimed by bangladesh. When he started discussing with Pakistanis as well, things took a bit of a turn and it was around that time the turkish issue happened. Eventually everybody hated him and wanted him out but i dont recollect nor have on record any statement that could be contributed to nilgiri as maddening. It was simply mob mentality and demand that stemmed from his nationality then his views.

The second was the hunt for Kaptaan. Previously known as Indus-Pakistan, he was perhaps the most loved person on that forum. I kid you not, and the reason was that he was a proponent of the theory that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. It can use the Indus River, A mighty river system of South Asia that flows between Pakistan and was basically the historic frontier between the iranic and afghan lands and what they called the lands on the other side of indus as hind. Punjab, Sindh and Kashmir and half of Gilgit Baltistan of Pakistan are on the east side of the river with KPK and Baluchistan are on the west side of the river with half of gilgit baltistan on the north side of the river. The river was home to ancient civilization like the Indus civilization. You find those ancient cities across india and pakistan and he was a proponent not a progenitor that Pakistan needs to grab that indus history and proclaim itself as the inheritors of that history rather than allow India to take that history. This was loved by the pakistani posters and trolls but what kaptaan didnt understand that they were not interested in the theory itself and were definitely not interested in the concept that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. They were just interested in trolling indians and whilst not one of his finest moments, which he will disagree, he created a derogatory term that really heightened his fame but the thing is that he was a very extensive supporter of the theory and wanted pakistan throw away anything religious. He also wanted Pakistan to learn from Turkey, focus on its modernism and try to emulate Attaturk and dont focus on ertugral but pakistani posters on PDF were on a different high. The image in their head was that Turkey was this bastion of Islam, an actual fortress that should look to take the caliphal lead and when they learned what the attaturk did, they naturally saw him as an enemy which did not go down well with turks and with him and eventually a divergence happened which immediately became a chasm and this was not helped when he repeatedly proposed modernism for pakistan, more secular constitutional framework and most importantly that Karachi should not be allowed to decide the fate of pakistan and most definitely the Muhajir community ( When partition of British India happened, Muslims from India migrated to pakistan. The migrants that came to Punjab became part of Punjab and the common identity with tribe surname differences like pathans or rajputs. The ones that migrated to Karachi came from interior india and in a sindhi environment, formed a separate urdu language based identity called Muhajir. They are mostly concentrated in Karachi with some areas of Hyderabad), should not hold such a major city under their control and should allow migrations into the metropolitan city. Since, as i mentioned before that PDF has second most members from Karachi, they all banded together and the most patriotic individual you could find was declared a traitor and title removed and banned repeatedly. The thing is that if narrative building was the objective then this was the guy you wanted. He was an actual patriot who wanted Pakistan to be great and evolve into a power state. He defended pakistan at every step but when mobs decide fate, hardly anything could be done.

The third incident was the national hunt of Indians. After the incident of Austerlitz (Austerlitz was very intellectual member that would post extremely informative posts on military history. From armour to tactics, he had it all and it was before youtube channels like Kings and Generals were around so the depth he produced was what you would find in a library after putting together ten books). It was at that time, Pakistani posters had lost patience with Indian trolls and the new Pakistani posters incoming 2017ish were trolls themselves. They would say stuff against hindu religion and downfall had begun by now and eventually he lost it and said a few things that did not go well. Some senior indian posters tried to stop him but it was too late. So a thread was opened where it was declared that Austerlitz must be hunted down otherwise all Pakistani members would leave because of imaan i am guessing. This thread was like a Jirga, a council of elders, and his fate was to be decided. @Joe Shearer was disturbed and perhaps if he was present, he might have controlled Austerlitz before it happened but thats a what-if scenario.. I was quite annoyed at Austerlitz losing his cool and i lost respect for him but what culminated was a witch hunt and eventually Austerlitz was removed from TTA and banned. This got the ball rolling because now there was an active movement to remove all indians. At that time, even after the hunt for Austerlitz, there were many intellectual indians but there was a growing hatred and i remember telling joe that we all must discuss things reasonably. Witch hunt and segregations wont help and when we are alone, we will turn on each other. it will never end because the issue is not the nationality but the standards and then the hunt began. I, to his day, have no idea why ScorpionX was removed as a TTA. He was one of the finest TTA out there and it was a shoot out. They were banning and banning everyone. If an indian spoke a word, he was banned. That was the time when Strategic frontier forum came to be under hellfire, if i am not mistaken. Where was the tolerance. For folks who took pride on what used to happen during the Islamic Golden Age, they were quite happy to do the exact opposite of it.
This national hunt would eventually lead to the hunt of turks.

The Fourth Incident was the bullying of A-Team. There was not a more humble individual than A-Team. He supported the Afghan government especially under Ghani and wanted Afghan government and Pakistan to be friends. He was a very nice individual and they bullied the hell out of him because the Pakistani posters over there had fawning love for taliban and he hated the taliban and felt that they were not good for his country. He was polite and he was civil and they kept tagging him, and bullying him and whenever he tried defend his government for simply existing, they would attack him and tell him that he and his government are shills for the american.. It was horrific and he left and the Afghan forum area died down.

The Fifth Incident was when abusive terms like "Gangadeshi" "Gangoo" "Pajeet" "Faujeet" "Patwari" "Lohar High Court" (an insulting derivation for the Lahore High Court) and so many others became not only common practice but were no longer punished by the moderators. The forum actively supported these terminologies and actively supported individuals who cheered for violence and chaos not only within other nations but also within their own countries. When you actively abuse entire regions because they did not vote for your messiah or they didnt ransack the parliament when he was arrested and the same is supported by the moderation team then you know that forum has completely went downhill. Calling each other Kaffir and ahmedi became the norm and eventually there is nothing worth having. It was unacceptable and what resulted was a sense of superiority and arrogance that would make Satan blush. What madness drives you to insult the national founding father and the country itself just because it does not treat itself as a disposable state like you do? What insanity dares you to call their way of living wrong simply because they do not see their identity from the lens of religion like you do? what deranged mind is needed to tell somebody that they know more about the country he lives in because they have an "outside view"? What instability prompts an individual to tell another nation to enter into a massive military conflict where they have nothing to gain but everything to lose simply because you have grandeurs of Salahuddin?
Sometimes it just breaks the dam


Agreed. There was no structure. In an effort to be a narrative, a golden objective that was sought, majority opinion was given weightage and what followed is there to see. It is sad.
Similarly the Arabs were also hunted...

And even mods were in on all the crap you mentioned.

I was also abused, and those were doing it, were encouraged. And my friend Jango was part of the lynch mob.

I didn't want pdf to die, but seems it was going to happen in the long run anyway.

P.S: I didn't know about Indus Pak/Kaptaan and austrlitz.. both were great members.

Another person you forgot was Khafee (May his soul rest in peace).

I haven't been much active on pdf . But from what I hear.. even he was done dirty. It's a shame.
 
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Jackdaws

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It was OK. Eventually became like a watered down stormfront - peddling conspiracy theories
 

Joe Shearer

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Another person you forgot was Khafee (May his soul rest in peace).
Khafee and I didn't get along on PDF, then he astonished me by wooing me for nearly a month, pleading that I should join something he was setting up. Finally I succumbed to this, joined his forum, and was instantly attacked. Most unpleasant.
However, nil nisi mortuis bonum.
 

TR_123456

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Khafee and I didn't get along on PDF, then he astonished me by wooing me for nearly a month, pleading that I should join something he was setting up. Finally I succumbed to this, joined his forum, and was instantly attacked. Most unpleasant.
However, nil nisi mortuis bonum.
Yeah,that Arab forum,all islamists,i fucked them up and left. 😁 😁 😁
 

Nilgiri

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Actually we used to have international mods on there.. but as Saiyan said, it all went to shit.

I'm not a jingoist, rather im apolitical.. but even the slightest criticism of anything related to pti would cause a sh.t storm of abuse.
It had indeed become another of those indian forum, except now everyone and anyone was the target.

Even men who laid down their lives for Pak were not spared.

Well I'm glad you are here. Hope you put in a good word to any others you know that are interested in a more quiet, professional setting of forum.

Unfortunately I see the same bunch of problems sticking around with PDF larger group wherever they migrate to and retain same bunch of troublemakers that create bad blood and toxicity (and limited enforcement upon them to stop it).

Past all the trolling, it was unsettling (when I peeked in over time after departure) to see Pakistani posters I remembered (and had learned things from) who were interacting on good even brotherly terms...... turn against each other just like that later, over politics.

All because there was not a fair set of rules employed and implemented consistently for long time and this just cascaded into Pakistani posters as well in the end. Selective application just builds up unfairness and people that should not be divided, end up being so in end and the bad blood can persist a long time. Sad.
 

Joe Shearer

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Well I'm glad you are here. Hope you put in a good word to any others you know that are interested in a more quiet, professional setting of forum.

Unfortunately I see the same bunch of problems sticking around with PDF larger group wherever they migrate to and retain same bunch of troublemakers that create bad blood and toxicity (and limited enforcement upon them to stop it).

Past all the trolling, it was unsettling (when I peeked in over time after departure) to see Pakistani posters I remembered (and had learned things from) who were interacting on good even brotherly terms...... turn against each other just like that later, over politics.

All because there was not a fair set of rules employed and implemented consistently for long time and this just cascaded into Pakistani posters as well in the end. Selective application just builds up unfairness and people that should not be divided, end up being so in end and the bad blood can persist a long time. Sad.
I'm sad to say, it's started. At the visceral Pakistan-India level, not at the Pakistani politics level.
 
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Khafee and I didn't get along on PDF, then he astonished me by wooing me for nearly a month, pleading that I should join something he was setting up. Finally I succumbed to this, joined his forum, and was instantly attacked. Most unpleasant.
However, nil nisi mortuis bonum.
He embraced martyrdom in combat. I only came to know about it a couple of days back.
I dunno bout bad blood between you n him, but he was pro Pakistan and whatever limited interaction I had with him, I respected the man.

Still cant come to terms that he is no more.
Probably one of the best Arab posters.
 
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