Pakistan defence.pk being closed off

[VickyIndian]

I have been engaged in a private exercise to understand what stands in front of India, and gathering data about India's military situation and the military and social threats faced by her, and this will be my focus henceforth.

When are you starting a thread on these?

And it is good to see you here @Joe Shearer.

 

[Glass🚬]

Fun fact, I have never been to PDF. So I have no idea what all this beef is actually about.

They turned to many blind eyes for trolling in the Turkish section in 2019/2020 and after a while also started banning Turkish members for going against it, in the Turkish section. Many of those actions left a bade taste in the mouth of the regulars who then decided to create defencehub lol

 

[Marlii]

The main problem I see in the PDF is this: Thinking that freedom of expression is absolute. However, it is not absolute. If a non-Muslim person dies and someone writes about him saying "May God have mercy on him" and a fascist bigot comes out and says "No such thing can be said about non-Muslims", that is, if he dares to write this nonsense, there is a very serious moderation problem.

IMO, Pakistan's main problem is the problem of defining the "Pakistan Nation Identity". They wanted to define Pakistani identity through religion (A.K.A Islam). But once this path is taken, it leads to fascism. It has always been like this throughout history. Because logic and conscience disappear from circulation in such a sociological environment.

PDF is an ordinary victim of this sociological environment, like all other Pakistanis.

The whole "Freedom of expression" thing was just their mods being sloppy. When people create 5 or 6 threads on why an indian police man on start of his training cant jump a wall or how pak men have bigger penises you damn well know that forum has gone to dogs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

When are you starting a thread on these?

And it is good to see you here @Joe Shearer.

Soon. I owe my primary responsibility to this forum. It is just that I want to mill down the rough edges of my analysis a little.

And thank you for your good wishes. Were you VKDIndian or something similar on PDF?

 

[VickyIndian]

VKDIndian

Yeah.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yeah.

Then I owe you an apology for not coming to your defence earlier.
Normally, I don't get involved with PDF any more, but this series of vile comments by two of them was so bad that I was forced to get in there. I should have gauged their very poor quality earlier and interposed myself.
Apologies.

 

[Maximilian Veers]

The main problem I see in the PDF is this: Thinking that freedom of expression is absolute. However, it is not absolute. If a non-Muslim person dies and someone writes about him saying "May God have mercy on him" and a fascist bigot comes out and says "No such thing can be said about non-Muslims", that is, if he dares to write this nonsense, there is a very serious moderation problem.

IMO, Pakistan's main problem is the problem of defining the "Pakistan Nation Identity". They wanted to define Pakistani identity through religion (A.K.A Islam). But once this path is taken, it leads to fascism. It has always been like this throughout history. Because logic and conscience disappear from circulation in such a sociological environment.

PDF is an ordinary victim of this sociological environment, like all other Pakistanis.

I have always assumed PDF was a reflection of the Pakistani society, A few people came together in a forum and started having some reasonably intelligent discussions on various topics with members that spanned all across the globe with various expertise. The forum starts gaining recognition and soon there is a large community of people having views that are not in line with the Pakistani religious and cultural world view. After a short period of time, some trigger event becomes an excuse for the members and its moderators to clamp down on views that are no favorable to the smaller extremist group. Once most of the diverse manpower and world views have been chased away from the forum, the intolerance starts to seep within their own society and they start blaming each other, until the point another trigger event leads to the untouchable Army/ISI being targeted.


I am not stereotyping, there are a number of decent Pakistanis, but I feel they have too little influence to make any reasonable change.

 

[Afif]

For the last few weeks, I have been engaged in a private exercise to understand what stands in front of India, and gathering data about India's military situation and the military and social threats faced by her, and this will be my focus henceforth.

That would be very interesting. I have been down that road for last few months w.r.t BD Armed forces. Obviously, perception of India and its force posturing is pretty much central to BD's strategic thinking, national security arrangements, and defence posture. (Although these days no party says theses things out loud, but nevertheless as normal institutional functions Armed forces has to engage in it)

I would love to see an in-depth analysis from an Indian perspective on it own strategic thinking and Force posturing.

 

[Nilgiri]

Even this, as we can see in progress, is vulnerable. Stating what is not up for debate is a statement, and nothing prevents those who have a majority of public opinion backing them, even if the backing is for other reasons, from debating those taboo things. Nothing can stop a determined and successful demagogue.

Indeed, its why I mentioned proper fighting chance rather than any guarantee. Things have to be put in practice.

From the onset if you start with demagoguery though (and exploiting the broader sociological means that sustain such things like Merzifonlu has mentioned), it can get baked in a very long time.

Large parts of my family have become anti-INC to the degree they have some visceral reactions when I defend Nehru. They are more drawn to the autocrat nature his daughter took on and thats what appeals to them in the political currents today. But we are Tamil and I (and those like me among my kin) always have the brahmastra that is the Kamaraj tenure. From that I am always able to backwork things on principles and context back to the larger INC (and independence movement) of that era....that we must criticize what needs criticizing, but we have much to be thankful and grateful for if proper measured judgement is formed. A process that has been fruitful for me as I hone it to get people to think on things again and return later. Large parts of this process would have been in far worse shape today if the "proper fighting chance" was not set up in first place.

It happened while I was absent from the forum for a period, engaged in personal matters. I was shocked when I returned and found that he was gone.

Austerlitz was a sad story. That one was a really clumsy hatchet job (like really bad).

A group of Pakistani posters who had it out for him in a "how can an Indian have a TT title on "our" forum?"...basically made a couple burner accounts to harangue him intensely so a selective confession reel could be given to webby (who they then spent another few weeks pressuring till he caved in).

Disgusting. Would have never happened as it did if it was the other way around...the literal evidence of clear nature of the hatchet job was open to all to see too on austerlitz profile page (anyone mind telling me who the hell these new burner accounts even are?)

Then Pakistani friends of mine, who never had any part in this, some even leave the whole forum over the selective reel given on what happened and their own foibles/inconsistencies. Though they did at deeper level sense something grossly inconsistent about the system in place to let this stuff surface after all the hue and cry about "no discussion about religion" (and its hollowness in practice acting as streisand effect - thats all a bunch of posters could ever talk about in awful ways in full view of the mods).

This is the exact way seemingly populist mobs can get their way in society more broadly to silence any minority they dont like....because there is own void in self-esteem for whatever reason and axe to grind.

It doesn't matter in end how much you contribute as a doctor in Karachi, how many people you helped.....if you are Hazara and theres a hit against you from some mob of degenerates who just hate you because you are Hazara. The police just shrug their shoulders or are secretly pleased.

Its matters like this I am able to sort out principled Pakistanis to make friends with.... from ones I keep as casual acquaintance (at best). Extends to Indians and others as well.

When are you starting a thread on these?

And it is good to see you here @Joe Shearer.

In interim, you can always check up Joe's recent activity on profile page etc, or search up his replies.

Hope you also bring any marooned/exiled/adrift quality Indian members here over time as you can. We don't want to lose a gathering spot for those interested in international forum atmosphere but one with sound consistency of rules.

I like your response but I sincerely believe you are wrong. We can discuss this, on a suitable thread, not this one.

May I suggest this one (we can rename it to paritition analysis or something else if warranted and if @Saiyan0321 thinks it is proper):

Books and Research Materials

I am making this thread a Sticky so that we can share Reading material of any kind amongst ourselves and provide Reviews and Suggestions for Books. This Thread will also include Research materials which can help our understanding and expand our horizons. Again it is not limited to Non-Fiction...

defencehub.live

It has earlier replies/exchanges between a bunch of us that may be interesting for members to look over and then continue. I think partition stuff starts around page 2.

The topic of partition has come up in fits and starts in many more disparate threads, but this one seems to have a good chunk from the search I just did. I can bring and consolidate more streams as I find them elsewhere to the larger thread if needed too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have always assumed PDF was a reflection of the Pakistani society, A few people came together in a forum and started having some reasonably intelligent discussions on various topics with members that spanned all across the globe with various expertise. The forum starts gaining recognition and soon there is a large community of people having views that are not in line with the Pakistani religious and cultural world view. After a short period of time, some trigger event becomes an excuse for the members and its moderators to clamp down on views that are no favorable to the smaller extremist group. Once most of the diverse manpower and world views have been chased away from the forum, the intolerance starts to seep within their own society and they start blaming each other, until the point another trigger event leads to the untouchable Army/ISI being targeted.


I am not stereotyping, there are a number of decent Pakistanis, but I feel they have too little influence to make any reasonable change.

Both @Merzifonlu and you make a lot of sense.

I think it is too close to current developments to come to any satisfactory conclusions, but these views provoke thought and make us aware of what we need to do, ourselves, here. Obviously, this will reward further exploration, but we should allow ourselves the benefit of deliberate and well-thought through discussions - let's not be in a hurry.

You sound like you have been a PDF member.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That would be very interesting. I have been down that road for last few months w.r.t BD Armed forces. Obviously, perception of India and its force posturing is pretty much central to BD's strategic thinking, national security arrangements, and defence posture. (Although these days no party says theses things out loud, but nevertheless as normal institutional functions Armed forces has to engage in it)

I would love to see an in-depth analysis from an Indian perspective on it own strategic thinking and Force posturing.

Would be delighted to discuss these, separately, and in interaction with each other, with you and any others who might be interested. Not just this minute, but, yes, soon.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indeed, its why I mentioned proper fighting chance rather than any guarantee. Things have to be put in practice.

From the onset if you start with demagoguery though (and exploiting the broader sociological means that sustain such things like Merzifonlu has mentioned), it can get baked in a very long time.

Large parts of my family have become anti-INC to the degree they have some visceral reactions when I defend Nehru. They are more drawn to the autocrat nature his daughter took on and thats what appeals to them in the political currents today. But we are Tamil and I (and those like me among my kin) always have the brahmastra that is the Kamaraj tenure. From that I am always able to backwork things on principles and context back to the larger INC (and independence movement) of that era....that we must criticize what needs criticizing, but we have much to be thankful and grateful for if proper measured judgement is formed. A process that has been fruitful for me as I hone it to get people to think on things again and return later. Large parts of this process would have been in far worse shape today if the "proper fighting chance" was not set up in first place.

I find myself unable to resist the observation that you were growing by inches earlier, you are growing by feet now!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Austerlitz was a sad story. That one was a really clumsy hatchet job (like really bad).

A group of Pakistani posters who had it out for him in a "how can an Indian have a TT title on "our" forum?"...basically made a couple burner accounts to harangue him intensely so a selective confession reel could be given to webby (who they then spent another few weeks pressuring till he caved in).

Disgusting. Would have never happened as it did if it was the other way around...the literal evidence of clear nature of the hatchet job was open to all to see too on austerlitz profile page (anyone mind telling me who the hell these new burner accounts even are?)

Then Pakistani friends of mine, who never had any part in this, some even leave the whole forum over the selective reel given on what happened and their own foibles/inconsistencies. Though they did at deeper level sense something grossly inconsistent about the system in place to let this stuff surface after all the hue and cry about "no discussion about religion" (and its hollowness in practice acting as streisand effect - thats all a bunch of posters could ever talk about in awful ways in full view of the mods).

This is the exact way seemingly populist mobs can get their way in society more broadly to silence any minority they dont like....because there is own void in self-esteem for whatever reason and axe to grind.

It doesn't matter in end how much you contribute as a doctor in Karachi, how many people you helped.....if you are Hazara and theres a hit against you from some mob of degenerates who just hate you because you are Hazara. The police just shrug their shoulders or are secretly pleased.

Its matters like this I am able to sort out principled Pakistanis to make friends with.... from ones I keep as casual acquaintance (at best). Extends to Indians and others as well.

I am still bewildered at how, and why, this happened.

Which idiot would knowingly drive away the asset he was?

Unbelievable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In interim, you can always check up Joe's recent activity on profile page etc, or search up his replies.

Hope you also bring any marooned/exiled/adrift quality Indian members here over time as you can. We don't want to lose a gathering spot for those interested in international forum atmosphere but one with sound consistency of rules.

Emphasis on the sound consistency of rules.

I had a difficult debate with Dalit on PDF a few hours ago, explaining that there was no point his/their complaining about Indian Hindutva trolls, not even to an audience like me, with my well-known pre-disposition, when they treated all Indians like that. He didn't get it. Almost immediately after apparently 'getting' it, he launched one of those classical assaults against some poor fellow who said something that Dalit felt should be rejected out of hand.

 

[Maximilian Veers]

You sound like you have been a PDF member.

I was, got banned around 2018. One day I lost it and decided to run head first into self-termination by insulting certain deeply held convictions of people across the Western border.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was, got banned around 2018. One day I lost it and decided to run head first into self-termination by insulting certain deeply held convictions of people across the Western border.

I managed to hold on for quite some time, part because my philosophy was that I should discuss only the Indian condition or the interactive India-Pakistan relationship as a composite relationship, part because bhakts assaulted me and it is difficult to attack someone from two directions, part because of the strong support from the moderators.

 

[Maximilian Veers]

part because bhakts assaulted me and it is difficult to attack someone from two directions, part because of the strong support from the moderators.

lul......I think you'd probably hate my previous incarnation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

lul......I think you'd probably hate my previous incarnation.

Possibly.

I hated most members, Pakistani or Indian, who spread hate.

 

[Maximilian Veers]

who spread hate.

You mean people who uses religious terminology which your opponents consider important in a slanderous way in order to discredit them ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

You mean people who uses religious terminology which your opponents consider important in a slanderous way in order to discredit them ?

Could that be in English, please?