Pakistan defence.pk being closed off

Bengal71

Member
Messages
23
Reactions
57
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
Sure, not polite behavior, to say the least) spl on a forum focused on their military but it all still comes across being a bit thin skinned.

Politics is a nasty business pretty much everywhere on earth.. like they say "get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.." or something

it'll almost always backfire and explode in their faces.. look at this place for example, refugees pouring in, its almost an insurgency of sorts in the making lol

but I do get your point, that people should be measured and tempered in how they approach and act/type out, spl during these tense political times over in Pk.

I am totally for free speech. Those in politics should be criticized and even insulted, citizens have the right to do that.
 

-=virus=-

Active member
Messages
115
Reactions
92
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
I am totally for free speech. Those in politics should be criticized and even insulted, citizens have the right to do that.
agree in principle, but then one also needs to be cognizant (situational awareness, if you will) of where you do that.
 

Bengal71

Member
Messages
23
Reactions
57
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
agree in principle, but then one also needs to be cognizant (situational awareness, if you will) of where you do that.

Yeah that's correct but one can hardly control a forum as busy as defence.pk.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,303
Reactions
96 18,874
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
The issue will always be how you speak. What words you use. In my family there is a saying. If you give somebody kheer, (Sweetened Rice Pudding) and tell him "Daap le" meaning "shut up and drink" and he will throw that sweet at your face but if you give him poison and tell him "Piyar se pe lo" "Drink with love", he will drink it. It will always come back to how you speak. If you speak in a civil manner, no matter what criticism you make, it wont incur the mess that PDF has brought upon itself.
There was a time when some of the best minds would get together in a thread and give their views in a civil manner and some of those positions would be completely divergent but always informative, telling both sides of the story but in the last few years, PDF started a descent towards absolute intolerance and anarchy. Campaigns were initiated against individuals and then against nationalities, removing some of the best posters out there. I remember that they declared an objective that PDF was to become some beacon of Pakistan imagery and narrative and i knew then that it wont end well because when you start becoming a narrative, you cannot allow any opinion on the contrary to exist eventually what happened was what i feared and warned. When they beat down every single nationality, they turned on each other to suit narrative. Thats the problem with creating a narrative. It has to be defined and every voice on the contrary must be beaten down and voices in support of the narrative must be supported. Posters started abusing each other, took pride in creation of derogatory terminology and then attacking each other's religious beliefs as well. When Imran came to power any criticism against him was put down and members were abused away and it slowly became a cancer that spread everywhere. Posters who had nothing to do with Ukraine or Russia were fighting as if they are fighting on the frontlines. Tolerance completely fell away and in the end, all that was left was a husk.


When you are civil and criticize in a civil manner, a person making a complaint against you will struggle to gather incriminating material against you and even the person prosecuting you will think twice but when you are an abuse fest where individuals are abused and officials of state and their family information is posted with tags that they should be harassed and attacked and individuals are egged on to do the same then obviously incriminating you is going to be easy and defending you will not be possible. When you are civil and when you criticize in a civil manner then you are creating a shield that your opponent will find it impossible to penetrate. Perhaps nothing is more testament to the fact of how the members of PDF have fallen that right now other defense forums are literally creating a spear wall against any PDF influx and are declaring a no tolerance to trolling policy. Nobody is treating it as a boon and that is where introspection is truly needed.

It is a sad day. That place used to be amazing and had some highly educated posters. 2017 was the time when it all started to fall apart. I did try to increase the activity and wrote articles and posted informative posts but in the end it was all crashing down.

So moral of the story is simple. Be civil. I have personally seen it in life. If you speak in a civil manner, you can get away with alot. Abuse, and nobody listens to you.

Some say quantity has a quality of its own.

I am of reverse opinion, that quality has a quantity of its own.

If you keep quality high, there is much more quantity that actually permeates into heads that matter in meaningful way. Quality assurance also helps cultivate more quality quantity wise too.

If there is non-quality vices one prefers, it can be done in other places where quality folks need not be rubbing shoulders with it on their time....eroding their own capacity to contribute and stay away from the vice temptations festering around....to pay things back in kind etc etc.

Populist tyrannical "absolute-democratic" mobs means any mods become biased gatekeepers....ultimately the whole thing folds upon itself from its own echoes and standing waves....and precedence set for the powers that be (friend today, but foe tomorrow) to intervene on same concept....just with even more might makes right.

The constitutional republic recognises the dangers of this, that there are core principles, rights and laws outside of democratic vote and never to be voted upon (a collective can never take these away from an individual)....because they are that important and any large enough mob (which will inevitably form if these are left to the raw vote) can subvert them to the doom of all if left to a vote and/or given sufficient room for erosive praxis outside the law.

The better any country or collection of people does the constitutional republic framework (what is not up for debate and vote....and what is then left for debate and vote) and sticks to it, the better off and successful they will be long term. You give quality a proper fighting chance to build upon itself.

The basic truths underlying such principles came at great cost (ultimately the whole point of reading history), there is no need to reinvent and re-explore those processes and costs again just to soak up human time and much else (sweat, blood, tears) in those layers again.

Quality understands its already accomplished and is bedrock and is now interested in strata above these layers. Thats the whole point of having floorboards of truth and principle to stand upon and honour those that built them for you.

A group of people in charge either realizes this or they do not. I pity those that do not...they squander their responsibility and then have privilege to also blame everyone else but themselves....while the others are stuck with the costs.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,396
Reactions
5 17,953
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Honestly I actually engage in these flame wars and wars against numerous trolls in PDF. This kind of stuff makes you lose any purpose of posting.

Worst one was WWEundertakerfan.

Clickbait and pissing everybody off along with clogging the forums.
 

-=virus=-

Active member
Messages
115
Reactions
92
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Honestly I actually engage in these flame wars and wars against numerous trolls in PDF. This kind of stuff makes you lose any purpose of posting.

Worst one was WWEundertakerfan.

Clickbait and pissing everybody off along with clogging the forums.
superboy ! Chinese, Canadian, and absolute Legend !
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,138
Solutions
2
Reactions
95 22,890
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,757
Reactions
11,676
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Lol, i remember the day when they somehow read/deleted our direct messages and stopped us from communicating, not allowed this forum's twitter account's posts in the threads yet alone the mentioning of the forum's name / or the telegram group.
And here you promote their new house :p
We help those in need bro,as always.
No competition for us.

Btw,i think you quoted the wrong post. 😁 😁 😁
 

Saiyan0321

Contributor
Moderator
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,209
Reactions
100 1,891
Nation of residence
Pakistan
Nation of origin
Pakistan
That forum is being closed off, it's probably because of the Pakistan army. All members from there join here please, we can discuss here in a free forum.
I am going to come back to this post. It is highly doubtful that its because of the army and the way the moderation is talking over there, it seems that the issue is something else although equally serious. Whenever something is something then it is done under the purview of the prosecuting department. I told them that if the issue is PTA (Pakistan Telecommunication Agency) related then i can file an application for purview of documents and get an injunction on absolute closure since we have the youtube judgment where if a website is educational, then its educational pages should not be closed to the public and only those pages which are contrary to the law should be removed from the cyber space. It seems the issue isnt related to PTA...

There is something i want to highlight. I held PDF at a high plate however it is important to note that PDF was never the leading narrative creator nor ever had the clout within the Pakistani community nor within the agency to be given such a role. They might have been looked into and watched just as thousands of other forums were looked into and watched but PDF was never ever part of ISPR national social media plans. Its just not big enough and it just does not have that reach. Let me expand on this a bit.
PDF always presented itself as a narrative creator but it never had the capacity nor capability to become one. ISPR saw massive reforms under General Asim Bajwa, different from the COAS qamar jawad bajwa, and he completely changed the ISPR and their focus was largely creation of media cells and social media groups to forward a narrative. This was back in 2013ish but his policy focus was largely to control the private media that had mushroomed in 2004 period. He controlled the massive twitter account which he refused to hand over to General Asif Ghafoor when he became the DGISPR in 2016. Asim bajwa focused funding on TV serials, patriotic movies, debates on media and controlling the media itself and succeeded quite alot and it was under his guidance that the invincible image of General Raheel Sharif was presented, the COAS under whom Operation Zarb e Azb was launched which greatly diminished the capability of terror groups to mount attacks in Pakistan. PDF played no role in the eulogizing of Raheel and it was entirely media and raheel was often pitied against Nawaz and Asim also played a great role in creation of Imran's image and as we know that in 2014 dharna how Nawaz outplayed Raheel which earned him the ire of the military institution. By 2016, Asim gave General Ghafoor, a well built and oiled media machine which he built on and we saw funding of songs and movies and ofcourse new news channels were launched and General Ghafoor saw the influencer rage and proceeded to include influencer support into the Pakistani imagery and General Babar Iftikhar and the current general ahmed sharif have continued these policies. The point is that nowhere was PDF ever important enough to be included within any strategic policy. They werent even any such tool in any policy. The reason is very simple. PDF has no clout nor actual representation of Pakistan. Think about most pakistanis on PDF are the diaspora and then the next group that maybe reaches into double figures of 10-12 are from Karachi with the next representation being from Mirpur azad kashmir. Just imagine can ten individuals hold any sway over a city as diverse as Karachi whose politics is extremely complicated. Take lahore for instance that is diverse but not as diverse as Karachi and that city is so politically complicated that the difference of politics between somebody from model town or defence or garden town and somebody from islampura, mughalpura, santanagar, krishanagar is insane. Their views, their reasons are just too different and thus the clout and influence needed is required to be just as influential and diverse. PDF didnt have that which is why it could never be used as a propaganda machine. It could never ever become a narrative maker despite how much they tried. Its just not big enough to be on the establishment map as a weapon.
So no i disagree quite vehemently with this statement that PDF was the narrative front force for the army. It wasnt even in the reserves.
Are they considering migrating to defhub or start a new one?

Somebody has created a new forum however the management is looking into whether they should support it or not. I advised them that if they dont have stake in the website then they shouldnt back it because its a life lesson. If you dont have a stake and give your days and nights, a few years down the line, there is a chance you can get hit. Plus i doubt they will come here. The members that now inhabit the place, want a place where they can have a more relaxed atmosphere in terms of moderation and that wont work neither here nor on sinodefense because sinodefense is also quite strict and is vary of PDF members and the same here. Basically they desire a place where the moderation if more pakistani so that they can influence that moderation through emotional blackmail and mob pressure.

@TR_123456 my friend you pointed out that the new forum is following country moderator policy like we have it here but that is like prescribing Benadryl cough syrup for Stomach pains. The prescription is wrong because the standard of the forum didnt fall because the small 1% areas were not moderated properly or werent moderated by their own country men. The issue was and is the large population of abusive pakistani members who look to create pressure on moderation through mob actions and guilt trips. The issue was the policy that pakistani forum needs to be a creator and defender of a narrative which to this day has not been properly explained. If these issues are not looked into then its rinse and repeat.
Wow. Horrible! How did they go so much low, down into dirt? It’s insane.

Well lets see this is what i wrote there which should help

""""""""""""
It is indeed a very sad event and one that was avoidable. You have raised your issues and each is valid but it must be added that the forum was slowly descending into absolute chaos. In everything, i have found that there is a difference of method in speaking. There is a difference in saying "Please Eat" and "Stuff it into you #$%%^ mouth". The thing is that this forum slowly descended into chaos as initially it started to descend into mob rule with posters opening threads and calling for lynching of members and nationalities and those threads received massive popular support and when the same was not entertained, the mod and admins were criticized and even right now, you can see individuals calling out mods and admins as being on payroll and stuff. The descent into madness only rolled further and i remember stating quite openly that when we will have nobody else to hunt down, we will hunt each other and that is what happened. When everybody else was beaten black and blue, the internal hunts began. Political differences that were discussed with some level of civility morphed into abuses and taunts. If a member had posted something on one thread against an opinion carried by others, they would cyber bully him on other threads. If i remember correctly, it was called their patriotic duty and i also remember that this forum was presented by many to lead the patriotic imagery of the country. There were grand plans discussed and like patriotism itself, it became the cloak of the scoundrel. What was never understood was that slowly it killed the difference of opinion and eventually became a singular mouthpiece. There was only one voice that became exponentially worse when the removal of Imran Khan happened. When that happens, it stops being neutral but even that is fine. The Issue will always be, what it was before and that is the lack of civility among members. The abuse and the way they discussed any topic whatsoever. That will be the issue and that is the trigger. Yes there was an investigation and yes there is an investigation but it is not easy to create a case against a place that speaks in a civil and knowledgeable manner. When you abuse and depart from any civil nature then targeting you becomes all the more easier.

We used to criticize the army. I criticized the army here but everything was done in a civil manner. When you take pride in creation of derogatory terms then you know there is nothing left. People who are claiming this places greatness speak of a past that is long gone. When posters would post amazing threads on religious issues, political issues, legal issues and military issues. It was amazing and there was genuine effort but now, you cannot claim to look at the pyramids now and state that Egypt is great. It was great when it built the pyramids but that egypt is gone and the pyramids are history. Similarly as is this place."""""""""""

furthermore as nilgiri pointed out that they allowed too much power to individual posters and often the posters decided which way the forum should go. They were given way too much power and eventually it became witch hunts that went from individuals from other nationalities and then went to full blown campaigns against nationalities and then they started hunting down each other. The forum decided that it must become a front runner on a narrative and when you become a mouthpiece in such a manner, tolerance for difference of opinion simply ceases to exist and that is where it went downhill because everything on the contrary didnt just have to be refuted. It had to be attacked and removed no matter what. When the turks migrated away, the place became quite an echo chamber with intellectual indians already migrating away before and with the turks gone, the only ones left were the pakistanis and then the swords turned to each other. Narrative will always require the concept of the "Other" and so Anybody not absolutely supporting Imran was no longer welcome, Anybody supporting the military was no longer welcome and anybody saying to not abuse the judges, military or the state itself was no longer welcome. Infact it was also during this time that some posters of PDF became ultra islamic passing certificates on whether somebody was a kaffir or not. I remember that recently some members had started raising issues that using RIP or praying in the event of the death of a non-muslim is haram and they were quite abrasive about it and actively discouraged members from doing so. Then there were the sectarian issues with individuals who didnt agree to absolutely what the posters said were immediately being branded either heretics or from different sects or misguided. M.Sarmad over there faced it a few times and the only thing saving him is his extremely anti-establishment stance although i am guessing, in a couple of years, he would have been hounded out of there as well.

Four things really got me down about that place.
One was the hunt for Nilgiri. Now you may not know this but Nilgiri was quite the character on PDF and at one time was one of the most beloved members amongst pakistanis. You see what was the Achilles heel for pakistanis on that forum was Bangladesh. Previously known as East Pakistan, the region separated from Pakistan in 1971 after a civil war that claimed many lives. The region was economically, politically and militarily alienated by West Pakistan, modern day pakistan and martial laws didnt help. Eventually the situation erupted and the Mukti Bahini along with the Indian army fought with the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan and West Pakistan which resulted in an absolute victory for India and Mukti Bahini as the garrison in East Pakistan surrendered when the capital of East Pakistan, Dhaka fell. Bangladesh eventually went on to stabilize its economy. Now Nilgiri used to argue with bangladeshi posters and those arguments were amazing about their economy, their political situation and eventually even the civil war itself regarding the numbers claimed by bangladesh. When he started discussing with Pakistanis as well, things took a bit of a turn and it was around that time the turkish issue happened. Eventually everybody hated him and wanted him out but i dont recollect nor have on record any statement that could be contributed to nilgiri as maddening. It was simply mob mentality and demand that stemmed from his nationality then his views.

The second was the hunt for Kaptaan. Previously known as Indus-Pakistan, he was perhaps the most loved person on that forum. I kid you not, and the reason was that he was a proponent of the theory that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. It can use the Indus River, A mighty river system of South Asia that flows between Pakistan and was basically the historic frontier between the iranic and afghan lands and what they called the lands on the other side of indus as hind. Punjab, Sindh and Kashmir and half of Gilgit Baltistan of Pakistan are on the east side of the river with KPK and Baluchistan are on the west side of the river with half of gilgit baltistan on the north side of the river. The river was home to ancient civilization like the Indus civilization. You find those ancient cities across india and pakistan and he was a proponent not a progenitor that Pakistan needs to grab that indus history and proclaim itself as the inheritors of that history rather than allow India to take that history. This was loved by the pakistani posters and trolls but what kaptaan didnt understand that they were not interested in the theory itself and were definitely not interested in the concept that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. They were just interested in trolling indians and whilst not one of his finest moments, which he will disagree, he created a derogatory term that really heightened his fame but the thing is that he was a very extensive supporter of the theory and wanted pakistan throw away anything religious. He also wanted Pakistan to learn from Turkey, focus on its modernism and try to emulate Attaturk and dont focus on ertugral but pakistani posters on PDF were on a different high. The image in their head was that Turkey was this bastion of Islam, an actual fortress that should look to take the caliphal lead and when they learned what the attaturk did, they naturally saw him as an enemy which did not go down well with turks and with him and eventually a divergence happened which immediately became a chasm and this was not helped when he repeatedly proposed modernism for pakistan, more secular constitutional framework and most importantly that Karachi should not be allowed to decide the fate of pakistan and most definitely the Muhajir community ( When partition of British India happened, Muslims from India migrated to pakistan. The migrants that came to Punjab became part of Punjab and the common identity with tribe surname differences like pathans or rajputs. The ones that migrated to Karachi came from interior india and in a sindhi environment, formed a separate urdu language based identity called Muhajir. They are mostly concentrated in Karachi with some areas of Hyderabad), should not hold such a major city under their control and should allow migrations into the metropolitan city. Since, as i mentioned before that PDF has second most members from Karachi, they all banded together and the most patriotic individual you could find was declared a traitor and title removed and banned repeatedly. The thing is that if narrative building was the objective then this was the guy you wanted. He was an actual patriot who wanted Pakistan to be great and evolve into a power state. He defended pakistan at every step but when mobs decide fate, hardly anything could be done.

The third incident was the national hunt of Indians. After the incident of Austerlitz (Austerlitz was very intellectual member that would post extremely informative posts on military history. From armour to tactics, he had it all and it was before youtube channels like Kings and Generals were around so the depth he produced was what you would find in a library after putting together ten books). It was at that time, Pakistani posters had lost patience with Indian trolls and the new Pakistani posters incoming 2017ish were trolls themselves. They would say stuff against hindu religion and downfall had begun by now and eventually he lost it and said a few things that did not go well. Some senior indian posters tried to stop him but it was too late. So a thread was opened where it was declared that Austerlitz must be hunted down otherwise all Pakistani members would leave because of imaan i am guessing. This thread was like a Jirga, a council of elders, and his fate was to be decided. @Joe Shearer was disturbed and perhaps if he was present, he might have controlled Austerlitz before it happened but thats a what-if scenario.. I was quite annoyed at Austerlitz losing his cool and i lost respect for him but what culminated was a witch hunt and eventually Austerlitz was removed from TTA and banned. This got the ball rolling because now there was an active movement to remove all indians. At that time, even after the hunt for Austerlitz, there were many intellectual indians but there was a growing hatred and i remember telling joe that we all must discuss things reasonably. Witch hunt and segregations wont help and when we are alone, we will turn on each other. it will never end because the issue is not the nationality but the standards and then the hunt began. I, to his day, have no idea why ScorpionX was removed as a TTA. He was one of the finest TTA out there and it was a shoot out. They were banning and banning everyone. If an indian spoke a word, he was banned. That was the time when Strategic frontier forum came to be under hellfire, if i am not mistaken. Where was the tolerance. For folks who took pride on what used to happen during the Islamic Golden Age, they were quite happy to do the exact opposite of it.
This national hunt would eventually lead to the hunt of turks.

The Fourth Incident was the bullying of A-Team. There was not a more humble individual than A-Team. He supported the Afghan government especially under Ghani and wanted Afghan government and Pakistan to be friends. He was a very nice individual and they bullied the hell out of him because the Pakistani posters over there had fawning love for taliban and he hated the taliban and felt that they were not good for his country. He was polite and he was civil and they kept tagging him, and bullying him and whenever he tried defend his government for simply existing, they would attack him and tell him that he and his government are shills for the american.. It was horrific and he left and the Afghan forum area died down.

The Fifth Incident was when abusive terms like "Gangadeshi" "Gangoo" "Pajeet" "Faujeet" "Patwari" "Lohar High Court" (an insulting derivation for the Lahore High Court) and so many others became not only common practice but were no longer punished by the moderators. The forum actively supported these terminologies and actively supported individuals who cheered for violence and chaos not only within other nations but also within their own countries. When you actively abuse entire regions because they did not vote for your messiah or they didnt ransack the parliament when he was arrested and the same is supported by the moderation team then you know that forum has completely went downhill. Calling each other Kaffir and ahmedi became the norm and eventually there is nothing worth having. It was unacceptable and what resulted was a sense of superiority and arrogance that would make Satan blush. What madness drives you to insult the national founding father and the country itself just because it does not treat itself as a disposable state like you do? What insanity dares you to call their way of living wrong simply because they do not see their identity from the lens of religion like you do? what deranged mind is needed to tell somebody that they know more about the country he lives in because they have an "outside view"? What instability prompts an individual to tell another nation to enter into a massive military conflict where they have nothing to gain but everything to lose simply because you have grandeurs of Salahuddin?
Sometimes it just breaks the dam
Some say quantity has a quality of its own.

I am of reverse opinion, that quality has a quantity of its own.

If you keep quality high, there is much more quantity that actually permeates into heads that matter in meaningful way. Quality assurance also helps cultivate more quality quantity wise too.

If there is non-quality vices one prefers, it can be done in other places where quality folks need not be rubbing shoulders with it on their time....eroding their own capacity to contribute and stay away from the vice temptations festering around....to pay things back in kind etc etc.

Populist tyrannical "absolute-democratic" mobs means any mods become biased gatekeepers....ultimately the whole thing folds upon itself from its own echoes and standing waves....and precedence set for the powers that be (friend today, but foe tomorrow) to intervene on same concept....just with even more might makes right.

The constitutional republic recognises the dangers of this, that there are core principles, rights and laws outside of democratic vote and never to be voted upon (a collective can never take these away from an individual)....because they are that important and any large enough mob (which will inevitably form if these are left to the raw vote) can subvert them to the doom of all if left to a vote and/or given sufficient room for erosive praxis outside the law.

The better any country or collection of people does the constitutional republic framework (what is not up for debate and vote....and what is then left for debate and vote) and sticks to it, the better off and successful they will be long term. You give quality a proper fighting chance to build upon itself.

The basic truths underlying such principles came at great cost (ultimately the whole point of reading history), there is no need to reinvent and re-explore those processes and costs again just to soak up human time and much else (sweat, blood, tears) in those layers again.

Quality understands its already accomplished and is bedrock and is now interested in strata above these layers. Thats the whole point of having floorboards of truth and principle to stand upon and honour those that built them for you.

A group of people in charge either realizes this or they do not. I pity those that do not...they squander their responsibility and then have privilege to also blame everyone else but themselves....while the others are stuck with the costs.

Agreed. There was no structure. In an effort to be a narrative, a golden objective that was sought, majority opinion was given weightage and what followed is there to see. It is sad.
 
M

Maximilian Veers

Guest
I am going to come back to this post. It is highly doubtful that its because of the army and the way the moderation is talking over there, it seems that the issue is something else although equally serious. Whenever something is something then it is done under the purview of the prosecuting department. I told them that if the issue is PTA (Pakistan Telecommunication Agency) related then i can file an application for purview of documents and get an injunction on absolute closure since we have the youtube judgment where if a website is educational, then its educational pages should not be closed to the public and only those pages which are contrary to the law should be removed from the cyber space. It seems the issue isnt related to PTA...

There is something i want to highlight. I held PDF at a high plate however it is important to note that PDF was never the leading narrative creator nor ever had the clout within the Pakistani community nor within the agency to be given such a role. They might have been looked into and watched just as thousands of other forums were looked into and watched but PDF was never ever part of ISPR national social media plans. Its just not big enough and it just does not have that reach. Let me expand on this a bit.
PDF always presented itself as a narrative creator but it never had the capacity nor capability to become one. ISPR saw massive reforms under General Asim Bajwa, different from the COAS qamar jawad bajwa, and he completely changed the ISPR and their focus was largely creation of media cells and social media groups to forward a narrative. This was back in 2013ish but his policy focus was largely to control the private media that had mushroomed in 2004 period. He controlled the massive twitter account which he refused to hand over to General Asif Ghafoor when he became the DGISPR in 2016. Asim bajwa focused funding on TV serials, patriotic movies, debates on media and controlling the media itself and succeeded quite alot and it was under his guidance that the invincible image of General Raheel Sharif was presented, the COAS under whom Operation Zarb e Azb was launched which greatly diminished the capability of terror groups to mount attacks in Pakistan. PDF played no role in the eulogizing of Raheel and it was entirely media and raheel was often pitied against Nawaz and Asim also played a great role in creation of Imran's image and as we know that in 2014 dharna how Nawaz outplayed Raheel which earned him the ire of the military institution. By 2016, Asim gave General Ghafoor, a well built and oiled media machine which he built on and we saw funding of songs and movies and ofcourse new news channels were launched and General Ghafoor saw the influencer rage and proceeded to include influencer support into the Pakistani imagery and General Babar Iftikhar and the current general ahmed sharif have continued these policies. The point is that nowhere was PDF ever important enough to be included within any strategic policy. They werent even any such tool in any policy. The reason is very simple. PDF has no clout nor actual representation of Pakistan. Think about most pakistanis on PDF are the diaspora and then the next group that maybe reaches into double figures of 10-12 are from Karachi with the next representation being from Mirpur azad kashmir. Just imagine can ten individuals hold any sway over a city as diverse as Karachi whose politics is extremely complicated. Take lahore for instance that is diverse but not as diverse as Karachi and that city is so politically complicated that the difference of politics between somebody from model town or defence or garden town and somebody from islampura, mughalpura, santanagar, krishanagar is insane. Their views, their reasons are just too different and thus the clout and influence needed is required to be just as influential and diverse. PDF didnt have that which is why it could never be used as a propaganda machine. It could never ever become a narrative maker despite how much they tried. Its just not big enough to be on the establishment map as a weapon.
So no i disagree quite vehemently with this statement that PDF was the narrative front force for the army. It wasnt even in the reserves.


Somebody has created a new forum however the management is looking into whether they should support it or not. I advised them that if they dont have stake in the website then they shouldnt back it because its a life lesson. If you dont have a stake and give your days and nights, a few years down the line, there is a chance you can get hit. Plus i doubt they will come here. The members that now inhabit the place, want a place where they can have a more relaxed atmosphere in terms of moderation and that wont work neither here nor on sinodefense because sinodefense is also quite strict and is vary of PDF members and the same here. Basically they desire a place where the moderation if more pakistani so that they can influence that moderation through emotional blackmail and mob pressure.

@TR_123456 my friend you pointed out that the new forum is following country moderator policy like we have it here but that is like prescribing Benadryl cough syrup for Stomach pains. The prescription is wrong because the standard of the forum didnt fall because the small 1% areas were not moderated properly or werent moderated by their own country men. The issue was and is the large population of abusive pakistani members who look to create pressure on moderation through mob actions and guilt trips. The issue was the policy that pakistani forum needs to be a creator and defender of a narrative which to this day has not been properly explained. If these issues are not looked into then its rinse and repeat.


Well lets see this is what i wrote there which should help

""""""""""""
It is indeed a very sad event and one that was avoidable. You have raised your issues and each is valid but it must be added that the forum was slowly descending into absolute chaos. In everything, i have found that there is a difference of method in speaking. There is a difference in saying "Please Eat" and "Stuff it into you #$%%^ mouth". The thing is that this forum slowly descended into chaos as initially it started to descend into mob rule with posters opening threads and calling for lynching of members and nationalities and those threads received massive popular support and when the same was not entertained, the mod and admins were criticized and even right now, you can see individuals calling out mods and admins as being on payroll and stuff. The descent into madness only rolled further and i remember stating quite openly that when we will have nobody else to hunt down, we will hunt each other and that is what happened. When everybody else was beaten black and blue, the internal hunts began. Political differences that were discussed with some level of civility morphed into abuses and taunts. If a member had posted something on one thread against an opinion carried by others, they would cyber bully him on other threads. If i remember correctly, it was called their patriotic duty and i also remember that this forum was presented by many to lead the patriotic imagery of the country. There were grand plans discussed and like patriotism itself, it became the cloak of the scoundrel. What was never understood was that slowly it killed the difference of opinion and eventually became a singular mouthpiece. There was only one voice that became exponentially worse when the removal of Imran Khan happened. When that happens, it stops being neutral but even that is fine. The Issue will always be, what it was before and that is the lack of civility among members. The abuse and the way they discussed any topic whatsoever. That will be the issue and that is the trigger. Yes there was an investigation and yes there is an investigation but it is not easy to create a case against a place that speaks in a civil and knowledgeable manner. When you abuse and depart from any civil nature then targeting you becomes all the more easier.

We used to criticize the army. I criticized the army here but everything was done in a civil manner. When you take pride in creation of derogatory terms then you know there is nothing left. People who are claiming this places greatness speak of a past that is long gone. When posters would post amazing threads on religious issues, political issues, legal issues and military issues. It was amazing and there was genuine effort but now, you cannot claim to look at the pyramids now and state that Egypt is great. It was great when it built the pyramids but that egypt is gone and the pyramids are history. Similarly as is this place."""""""""""

furthermore as nilgiri pointed out that they allowed too much power to individual posters and often the posters decided which way the forum should go. They were given way too much power and eventually it became witch hunts that went from individuals from other nationalities and then went to full blown campaigns against nationalities and then they started hunting down each other. The forum decided that it must become a front runner on a narrative and when you become a mouthpiece in such a manner, tolerance for difference of opinion simply ceases to exist and that is where it went downhill because everything on the contrary didnt just have to be refuted. It had to be attacked and removed no matter what. When the turks migrated away, the place became quite an echo chamber with intellectual indians already migrating away before and with the turks gone, the only ones left were the pakistanis and then the swords turned to each other. Narrative will always require the concept of the "Other" and so Anybody not absolutely supporting Imran was no longer welcome, Anybody supporting the military was no longer welcome and anybody saying to not abuse the judges, military or the state itself was no longer welcome. Infact it was also during this time that some posters of PDF became ultra islamic passing certificates on whether somebody was a kaffir or not. I remember that recently some members had started raising issues that using RIP or praying in the event of the death of a non-muslim is haram and they were quite abrasive about it and actively discouraged members from doing so. Then there were the sectarian issues with individuals who didnt agree to absolutely what the posters said were immediately being branded either heretics or from different sects or misguided. M.Sarmad over there faced it a few times and the only thing saving him is his extremely anti-establishment stance although i am guessing, in a couple of years, he would have been hounded out of there as well.

Four things really got me down about that place.
One was the hunt for Nilgiri. Now you may not know this but Nilgiri was quite the character on PDF and at one time was one of the most beloved members amongst pakistanis. You see what was the Achilles heel for pakistanis on that forum was Bangladesh. Previously known as East Pakistan, the region separated from Pakistan in 1971 after a civil war that claimed many lives. The region was economically, politically and militarily alienated by West Pakistan, modern day pakistan and martial laws didnt help. Eventually the situation erupted and the Mukti Bahini along with the Indian army fought with the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan and West Pakistan which resulted in an absolute victory for India and Mukti Bahini as the garrison in East Pakistan surrendered when the capital of East Pakistan, Dhaka fell. Bangladesh eventually went on to stabilize its economy. Now Nilgiri used to argue with bangladeshi posters and those arguments were amazing about their economy, their political situation and eventually even the civil war itself regarding the numbers claimed by bangladesh. When he started discussing with Pakistanis as well, things took a bit of a turn and it was around that time the turkish issue happened. Eventually everybody hated him and wanted him out but i dont recollect nor have on record any statement that could be contributed to nilgiri as maddening. It was simply mob mentality and demand that stemmed from his nationality then his views.

The second was the hunt for Kaptaan. Previously known as Indus-Pakistan, he was perhaps the most loved person on that forum. I kid you not, and the reason was that he was a proponent of the theory that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. It can use the Indus River, A mighty river system of South Asia that flows between Pakistan and was basically the historic frontier between the iranic and afghan lands and what they called the lands on the other side of indus as hind. Punjab, Sindh and Kashmir and half of Gilgit Baltistan of Pakistan are on the east side of the river with KPK and Baluchistan are on the west side of the river with half of gilgit baltistan on the north side of the river. The river was home to ancient civilization like the Indus civilization. You find those ancient cities across india and pakistan and he was a proponent not a progenitor that Pakistan needs to grab that indus history and proclaim itself as the inheritors of that history rather than allow India to take that history. This was loved by the pakistani posters and trolls but what kaptaan didnt understand that they were not interested in the theory itself and were definitely not interested in the concept that Pakistan does not need Islam to validate its existence. They were just interested in trolling indians and whilst not one of his finest moments, which he will disagree, he created a derogatory term that really heightened his fame but the thing is that he was a very extensive supporter of the theory and wanted pakistan throw away anything religious. He also wanted Pakistan to learn from Turkey, focus on its modernism and try to emulate Attaturk and dont focus on ertugral but pakistani posters on PDF were on a different high. The image in their head was that Turkey was this bastion of Islam, an actual fortress that should look to take the caliphal lead and when they learned what the attaturk did, they naturally saw him as an enemy which did not go down well with turks and with him and eventually a divergence happened which immediately became a chasm and this was not helped when he repeatedly proposed modernism for pakistan, more secular constitutional framework and most importantly that Karachi should not be allowed to decide the fate of pakistan and most definitely the Muhajir community ( When partition of British India happened, Muslims from India migrated to pakistan. The migrants that came to Punjab became part of Punjab and the common identity with tribe surname differences like pathans or rajputs. The ones that migrated to Karachi came from interior india and in a sindhi environment, formed a separate urdu language based identity called Muhajir. They are mostly concentrated in Karachi with some areas of Hyderabad), should not hold such a major city under their control and should allow migrations into the metropolitan city. Since, as i mentioned before that PDF has second most members from Karachi, they all banded together and the most patriotic individual you could find was declared a traitor and title removed and banned repeatedly. The thing is that if narrative building was the objective then this was the guy you wanted. He was an actual patriot who wanted Pakistan to be great and evolve into a power state. He defended pakistan at every step but when mobs decide fate, hardly anything could be done.

The third incident was the national hunt of Indians. After the incident of Austerlitz (Austerlitz was very intellectual member that would post extremely informative posts on military history. From armour to tactics, he had it all and it was before youtube channels like Kings and Generals were around so the depth he produced was what you would find in a library after putting together ten books). It was at that time, Pakistani posters had lost patience with Indian trolls and the new Pakistani posters incoming 2017ish were trolls themselves. They would say stuff against hindu religion and downfall had begun by now and eventually he lost it and said a few things that did not go well. Some senior indian posters tried to stop him but it was too late. So a thread was opened where it was declared that Austerlitz must be hunted down otherwise all Pakistani members would leave because of imaan i am guessing. This thread was like a Jirga, a council of elders, and his fate was to be decided. @Joe Shearer was disturbed and perhaps if he was present, he might have controlled Austerlitz before it happened but thats a what-if scenario.. I was quite annoyed at Austerlitz losing his cool and i lost respect for him but what culminated was a witch hunt and eventually Austerlitz was removed from TTA and banned. This got the ball rolling because now there was an active movement to remove all indians. At that time, even after the hunt for Austerlitz, there were many intellectual indians but there was a growing hatred and i remember telling joe that we all must discuss things reasonably. Witch hunt and segregations wont help and when we are alone, we will turn on each other. it will never end because the issue is not the nationality but the standards and then the hunt began. I, to his day, have no idea why ScorpionX was removed as a TTA. He was one of the finest TTA out there and it was a shoot out. They were banning and banning everyone. If an indian spoke a word, he was banned. That was the time when Strategic frontier forum came to be under hellfire, if i am not mistaken. Where was the tolerance. For folks who took pride on what used to happen during the Islamic Golden Age, they were quite happy to do the exact opposite of it.
This national hunt would eventually lead to the hunt of turks.

The Fourth Incident was the bullying of A-Team. There was not a more humble individual than A-Team. He supported the Afghan government especially under Ghani and wanted Afghan government and Pakistan to be friends. He was a very nice individual and they bullied the hell out of him because the Pakistani posters over there had fawning love for taliban and he hated the taliban and felt that they were not good for his country. He was polite and he was civil and they kept tagging him, and bullying him and whenever he tried defend his government for simply existing, they would attack him and tell him that he and his government are shills for the american.. It was horrific and he left and the Afghan forum area died down.

The Fifth Incident was when abusive terms like "Gangadeshi" "Gangoo" "Pajeet" "Faujeet" "Patwari" "Lohar High Court" (an insulting derivation for the Lahore High Court) and so many others became not only common practice but were no longer punished by the moderators. The forum actively supported these terminologies and actively supported individuals who cheered for violence and chaos not only within other nations but also within their own countries. When you actively abuse entire regions because they did not vote for your messiah or they didnt ransack the parliament when he was arrested and the same is supported by the moderation team then you know that forum has completely went downhill. Calling each other Kaffir and ahmedi became the norm and eventually there is nothing worth having. It was unacceptable and what resulted was a sense of superiority and arrogance that would make Satan blush. What madness drives you to insult the national founding father and the country itself just because it does not treat itself as a disposable state like you do? What insanity dares you to call their way of living wrong simply because they do not see their identity from the lens of religion like you do? what deranged mind is needed to tell somebody that they know more about the country he lives in because they have an "outside view"? What instability prompts an individual to tell another nation to enter into a massive military conflict where they have nothing to gain but everything to lose simply because you have grandeurs of Salahuddin?
Sometimes it just breaks the dam


Agreed. There was no structure. In an effort to be a narrative, a golden objective that was sought, majority opinion was given weightage and what followed is there to see. It is sad.

You forgot Article 370, 90% of Indian members got wiped out there. (It was still worth it)
 

-=virus=-

Active member
Messages
115
Reactions
92
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
You forgot Article 370, 90% of Indian members got wiped out there. (It was still worth it)
The great purge !

my friend 😇 gau8av perished in that fallout.

as did many other luminaries

which is not to say gau8av was one, still..

158202.jpg


do you remember gau8av @Paitoo uddin ?
 

Paitoo

Member
Messages
18
Reactions
17
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
The great purge !

my friend 😇 gau8av perished in that fallout.

as did many other luminaries

which is not to say gau8av was one, still..

158202.jpg


do you remember gau8av @Paitoo uddin ?
Nope. Before my time. I joined only in Sep 2021

I will regret not being able to reconnect with SIPRA and villageidiot. They just disappeared.
 

-=virus=-

Active member
Messages
115
Reactions
92
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Nope. Before my time. I joined only in Sep 2021
ah yes, you might've mention earlier also upon being queried on..

those were the days ! Doc, Sarthak, Ranjeet, Manavan et al

I'll try get Doc on here
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,303
Reactions
96 18,874
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
One was the hunt for Nilgiri. Now you may not know this but Nilgiri was quite the character on PDF and at one time was one of the most beloved members amongst pakistanis. You see what was the Achilles heel for pakistanis on that forum was Bangladesh. Previously known as East Pakistan, the region separated from Pakistan in 1971 after a civil war that claimed many lives. The region was economically, politically and militarily alienated by West Pakistan, modern day pakistan and martial laws didnt help. Eventually the situation erupted and the Mukti Bahini along with the Indian army fought with the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan and West Pakistan which resulted in an absolute victory for India and Mukti Bahini as the garrison in East Pakistan surrendered when the capital of East Pakistan, Dhaka fell. Bangladesh eventually went on to stabilize its economy. Now Nilgiri used to argue with bangladeshi posters and those arguments were amazing about their economy, their political situation and eventually even the civil war itself regarding the numbers claimed by bangladesh. When he started discussing with Pakistanis as well, things took a bit of a turn and it was around that time the turkish issue happened. Eventually everybody hated him and wanted him out but i dont recollect nor have on record any statement that could be contributed to nilgiri as maddening. It was simply mob mentality and demand that stemmed from his nationality then his views.

Heh, it had nothing to do with my antics with the Bongs at all. I played devils advocate on number of issues to get a rise out of people (yes in stupid fashion a number of times - but that was always openly shown to be par for the course there).

Those that knew me better, could see through it. Weaker feeble minds knew less and could only see whats put on their plate directly (a plate they went out of their way to shove in my face first a number of times) and I continue to live rent free on the matter in their heads to this day apparently.

My ejection came about by one particular post and it rubbing one particular mod the wrong way. I stood up for the Turkish members and the mod (Cabatli) when the overload of Iranian trolling in Turkish section became unbearable and this issue was raised with the PDF establishment. That was all it took. THAT was the straw that broke the camels back with me, of all things.

No evidence chain left on it (that whole thread was deleted), Turks involved were all put into purgatory mode and I was given permanent pink. They didn't count on a rebound, and then new conspiracy narratives had to be made again (Hindutva mind control of this forum, like I am some big Hindutva guy to begin with).

I could go into more details (the particular mod, or maybe him being the executor scapegoat tasked to rid me), but whats the point?

Its not a good thing in subcontinent snob people nature in the end, but its deep down there in many....bad cards on this have been drawn by some more than others.

i.e The affront to a deliberately cultivated image that is exposed to be fake in end....brings about a certain vindictiveness. Then its justified in whichever way with whichever selective narrative given of the "priors". OK...everyone else is born yesterday, and the desi elitist snob complex is purer than the driven snow. Shrug! I already have to deal with it in real life too much with desis...PDF just added to the tally.

Look in the end you reap what you sow. Its reaping time for that lot running things.

Better folks have better things to sow and reap. That holds more interest for me in limited time I have for the online stuff compared to before.
 

Saiyan0321

Contributor
Moderator
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,209
Reactions
100 1,891
Nation of residence
Pakistan
Nation of origin
Pakistan
Heh, it had nothing to do with my antics with the Bongs at all. I played devils advocate on number of issues to get a rise out of people (yes in stupid fashion a number of times - but that was always openly shown to be par for the course there).

Those that knew me better, could see through it. Weaker feeble minds knew less and could only see whats put on their plate directly (a plate they went out of their way to shove in my face first a number of times) and I continue to live rent free on the matter in their heads to this day apparently.

My ejection came about by one particular post and it rubbing one particular mod the wrong way. I stood up for the Turkish members and the mod (Cabatli) when the overload of Iranian trolling in Turkish section became unbearable and this issue was raised with the PDF establishment. That was all it took. THAT was the straw that broke the camels back with me, of all things.

No evidence chain left on it (that whole thread was deleted), Turks involved were all put into purgatory mode and I was given permanent pink. They didn't count on a rebound, and then new conspiracy narratives had to be made again (Hindutva mind control of this forum, like I am some big Hindutva guy to begin with).

I could go into more details (the particular mod, or maybe him being the executor scapegoat tasked to rid me), but whats the point?

Its not a good thing in subcontinent snob people nature in the end, but its deep down there in many....bad cards on this have been drawn by some more than others.

i.e The affront to a deliberately cultivated image that is exposed to be fake in end....brings about a certain vindictiveness. Then its justified in whichever way with whichever selective narrative given of the "priors". OK...everyone else is born yesterday, and the desi elitist snob complex is purer than the driven snow. Shrug! I already have to deal with it in real life too much with desis...PDF just added to the tally.

Look in the end you reap what you sow. Its reaping time for that lot running things.

Better folks have better things to sow and reap. That holds more interest for me in limited time I have for the online stuff compared to before.

Yep got better things to do. That chapter is closed now especially when working today it hit me like a truck. Pakpositivism. What rubbish and i told Pan Islamic that this is how it would end but boy he was abrasive back then. When i remembered it all, i came to the conclusion that i have lamented enough and there is no need to expend anymore brain power in remembering all that happened when it fell.
 

Follow us on social media

Latest posts

Top Bottom