TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Yasar_TR]

Is there any country that upgrades T1 and T2s? There seems to be none, so can we call the T1s and T2s bad planes?

Or not worth the hassle. Is it just the cost, then why are these countries buying new planes?

As I said in my post, Spain has done it. And will carry on further for T3 equipment integration to allow E-Scan Aesa radar and Meteor missile capability. They intend to keep these planes till 2045 like the British who would like to further modernise some 23 T1 planes so that they can be used till 2045.
UK also intends to upgrade all T2 to latest spec.

A Long Life for the Spanish EUROFIGHTER - European Security & Defence

The retrofit of Tranche 1, the integration of the E-Scan radar and a possible replacement of the Spanish fleet of 85 F-18 aircraft are the most important pillars for the future of the jet-fighter in Spain. In July 2020, the Spanish Air Force will receive its last EUROFIGHTER jet, reaching the 72...

euro-sd.com

 

[TheInsider]

You didn't get it.

To increase TR1 to TR2 or TR3, you have to expand everything (really all 40 mission computers) and install new mission computers, but this must include all 40 upgraded mission computers as an app so that DASS also does its job. And that's extremely expensive.

Blame it, MOTOROLA 68020 processors. Well-known computer systems in which Motorola 68020 processors were used are the Apple Macintosh II, the Sun workstations of the 3 series, the Amiga 1200 and the Amiga CD³² as well as the control compensation computers of the EF2000 Eurofighter, without which it could not be kept stable in the air.

Turkiye can literally strip the EF-2000 naked and change its avionics, rebuild everything inside the cockpit if the producer of the aircraft cooperates and give permissions and IP rights/source codes for modding. This is what we successfully did to F-16 Block 30.

 

[TheInsider]

Is there any country that upgrades T1 and T2s? There seems to be none, so can we call the T1s and T2s bad planes?

Or not worth the hassle. Is it just the cost, then why are these countries buying new planes?

Cost calculations are very complex. Half of the flight hours of the TR1s are gone. Do you invest 50 million per plane for upgrades or do you buy brand new TR4 for 150 million? What if an upgrade can be done at 25 million with the contribution of the Turkish defense industry and widespread use of Turkish subsystems when we have the chance?

 

[Altay2071]

Cost calculations are very complex. Half of the flight hours of the TR1s are gone. Do you invest 50 million per plane for upgrades or do you buy brand new TR4 for 150 million? What if an upgrade can be done at 25 million with the contribution of the Turkish defense industry and widespread use of Turkish subsystems when we have the chance?

Once the engine and the jet body is there, why it should cost 25 mio to upgrade the electronics? Are the flight computer, the radar, and sensors that expensive? Which of these do we need to buy externally? I thought the radar and sensors would come from Aselsan. Will Aselsan charge us so much for the development costs because only material costs cannot be that high? Why can’t Aselsan offer a reasonable price for its country? Also once we have code for F16 to adapt it, it would be very similar for another plane. If someone is able to write code in C++ for F16, writing code for EF will be similar and quicker. So Havelsan software engineers can do that. 100 engineers would cost at most 5 mio $ in one year and then the software for all the jets is ready, For God‘s sake let us not exaggerate these costs (unless we need to buy many things externally) and get going. The clock is ticking!

 

[Ripley]

It may also be possible to transfer 1 squadron of EF-T1s for a symbolic amount in exchange for joint and comprehensive modernization of these jets.

Because:

• UK MoD has a number of other projects for which it is considering provide a partnership. A strategic rapprochement between the two countries is possible.
• The UK MoD failed to sell these aircrafts. On the other hand, although the airframe life of these aircraft is relatively good, they are in need of serious (costly) modernization. The presence of UK companies in this modernization plan and the profit from the logistics of the aircraft that will remain active for another 20 years will reach the initial acquisition cost of the aircraft.
• The Turkish side, which is working on numerous aviation projects and high-speed naval platforms(derivative engines), could possibly become the largest market for the UK aviation engine industry after the US; If the UK engine/aerospace industry can enter this market strongly.
• In any case, there is significant cooperation in the MMU program and it is expected to last for decades. On the other hand, Turkish industrial participation is an attractive option to maximize the competitiveness of the Team Tempest project in world markets.
• The EF T1 acquisition will inevitably pave the way for a very large T4 order. The Turkish air force is one of the most advanced in the region, and even the minimum purchase of fighter jets could easily exceeds the total inventory of many air forces.
• For political reasons, the very large role of the US aerospace industry in the Turkish air force is becoming a big question mark. If the US starts to lose this huge market, there is a potential of tens of billions of dollars for other aerospace countries.

TL;DR: you must lose a fly to catch a trout.

Alright guys I observed this forum for a while to realize that some members have some close friends, ties or even maybe involved with Turkish defense industry.
Could you please tell us or even maybe speculate about any prospect on a partnership with Tempest project and RR partnership for an engine.
Thank you

 

[Ripley]

Once the engine and the jet body is there, why it should cost 25 mio to upgrade the electronics? Are the flight computer, the radar, and sensors that expensive? Which of these do we need to buy externally? I thought the radar and sensors would come from Aselsan. Will Aselsan charge us so much for the development costs because only material costs cannot be that high? Why can’t Aselsan offer a reasonable price for its country? Also once we have code for F16 to adapt it, it would be very similar for another plane. If someone is able to write code in C++ for F16, writing code for EF will be similar and quicker. So Havelsan software engineers can do that. 100 engineers would cost at most 5 mio $ in one year and then the software for all the jets is ready, For God‘s sake let us not exaggerate these costs (unless we need to buy many things externally) and get going. The clock is ticking!

Altay I don’t believe these numbers to be exact and final but more likely around the ballpark figures and at any rate to prove that a domestic solution is viable and less costly.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Please let us stay on topic. This is a TFX and trainer aircraft projects thread.

 

[Afif]

It may also be possible to transfer 1 squadron of EF-T1s for a symbolic amount in exchange for joint and comprehensive modernization of these jets.

Because:

• UK MoD has a number of other projects for which it is considering provide a partnership. A strategic rapprochement between the two countries is possible.
• The UK MoD failed to sell these aircrafts. On the other hand, although the airframe life of these aircraft is relatively good, they are in need of serious (costly) modernization. The presence of UK companies in this modernization plan and the profit from the logistics of the aircraft that will remain active for another 20 years will reach the initial acquisition cost of the aircraft.
• The Turkish side, which is working on numerous aviation projects and high-speed naval platforms(derivative engines), could possibly become the largest market for the UK aviation engine industry after the US; If the UK engine/aerospace industry can enter this market strongly.
• In any case, there is significant cooperation in the MMU program and it is expected to last for decades. On the other hand, Turkish industrial participation is an attractive option to maximize the competitiveness of the Team Tempest project in world markets.
• The EF T1 acquisition will inevitably pave the way for a very large T4 order. The Turkish air force is one of the most advanced in the region, and even the minimum purchase of fighter jets could easily exceeds the total inventory of many air forces.
• For political reasons, the very large role of the US aerospace industry in the Turkish air force is becoming a big question mark. If the US starts to lose this huge market, there is a potential of tens of billions of dollars for other aerospace countries.

TL;DR: you must lose a fly to catch a trout.

Tempset is supposed to enter service by 2035/40. At that time, tfx will be ( inshallah ) in full production with advanced blocks. However, the milion dollar question to me is, will uk, italy and sweeden transfer the IP rights of tempset and all of its associated technologies to turkey? If it is the case than it would be a very strategic gain.

But I think, it is very likely to end up more or less similar to another f35 program. ( I don't mean the expulsion, rather the actual share in core technologies )

My point is, of course all the cooperation and businesses on various levels between uk and turkey ( as you described it ) is very good.
but turkey should not enter any strategic ( in the most fundemental sense ) program with the europeans, in which it doesn't have the full control and the leading role.

Note, this is just my personal opinion. Don't take it too seriously.

 

[Zafer]

Tempset is supposed to enter service by 2035/40. At that time, tfx will be ( inshallah ) in full production with advanced blocks. However, the milion dollar question to me is, will uk, italy and sweeden transfer the IP rights of tempset and all of its associated technologies to turkey? If it is the case than it would be a very strategic gain.

But I think, it is very likely to end up more or less similar to another f35 program. ( I don't mean the expulsion, rather the actual share in core technologies )

My point is, of course all the cooperation and businesses on various levels between uk and turkey ( as you described it ) is very good.
but turkey should not enter any strategic ( in the most fundemental sense ) program with the europeans, in which it doesn't have the full control and the leading role.

Note, this is just my personal opinion. Don't take it too seriously.

By that time who knows who will make a better plane.

 

[Baryshx]

England was a country that imposed an embargo on us until yesterday. We shouldn't be so optimistic about the Tempest, TFX, Tranche 3-4 and EJ200.

 

[Ripley]

It may also be possible to transfer 1 squadron of EF-T1s for a symbolic amount in exchange for joint and comprehensive modernization of these jets.

Because:

• UK MoD has a number of other projects for which it is considering provide a partnership. A strategic rapprochement between the two countries is possible.
• The UK MoD failed to sell these aircrafts. On the other hand, although the airframe life of these aircraft is relatively good, they are in need of serious (costly) modernization. The presence of UK companies in this modernization plan and the profit from the logistics of the aircraft that will remain active for another 20 years will reach the initial acquisition cost of the aircraft.
• The Turkish side, which is working on numerous aviation projects and high-speed naval platforms(derivative engines), could possibly become the largest market for the UK aviation engine industry after the US; If the UK engine/aerospace industry can enter this market strongly.
• In any case, there is significant cooperation in the MMU program and it is expected to last for decades. On the other hand, Turkish industrial participation is an attractive option to maximize the competitiveness of the Team Tempest project in world markets.
• The EF T1 acquisition will inevitably pave the way for a very large T4 order. The Turkish air force is one of the most advanced in the region, and even the minimum purchase of fighter jets could easily exceeds the total inventory of many air forces.
• For political reasons, the very large role of the US aerospace industry in the Turkish air force is becoming a big question mark. If the US starts to lose this huge market, there is a potential of tens of billions of dollars for other aerospace countries.

TL;DR: you must lose a fly to catch a trout.

Also whatever we can learn from the tempest project will be useful. Even in the short f35 involvement we learned quite a bit.

About this Tempest Team; the way I see is that Britain is willing to cooperate with us in many ways, be it selling Typhoons or an engine development.
What I wonder is why we are dragging our feet here. I know the engine deal was off as Turkey wanted IP rights but what’s holding them to join Team Tempest and go for joint development of the engine (other than IP issue)?

 

[MADDOG]

Slightly unrelated... What exactly is Boeing trying to showcase here?

 

[Radonsider]

Slightly unrelated... What exactly is Boeing trying to showcase here?

View attachment 49743

Doesn't look like a nose, idk what this is, no clue

 

[Ecderha]

Slightly unrelated... What exactly is Boeing trying to showcase here?

View attachment 49743

usa military reveal few days ago that they will present 6th gen fighter in December this year

 

[Radonsider]

usa military reveal few days ago that they will present 6th gen fighter in December this year

Not fighter but "aircraft"

Was shared with B-21 post

 

[Anmdt]

About this Tempest Team; the way I see is that Britain is willing to cooperate with us in many ways, be it selling Typhoons or an engine development.
What I wonder is why we are dragging our feet here. I know the engine deal was off as Turkey wanted IP rights but what’s holding them to join Team Tempest and go for joint development of the engine (other than IP issue)?

They are intending to use TAI as subcontractor rather than getting TR in the project. Since BAE liked to work with engineers from TR (also the lower labor of cost) also as a reliable partner. Imo, this is win-win if Tempest is not fitting to our needs both with design and IP rights etc.

 

[MADDOG]

Just in:

I might get to visit TAI (and possibly MMU), any questions you want me to ask?
Possibly in 2 weeks

I'll be there before u (evil laugh)

 

[Radonsider]

I'll be there before u (evil laugh)

Wen???

 

[MADDOG]

Wen???

This Saturday

EDIT: Could change. Btw so happy you finally got the chance to visit TAI.

 

[Boz]

Just in:

I might get to visit TAI (and possibly MMU), any questions you want me to ask?
Possibly in 2 weeks

I'll be there before u (evil laugh)