TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[TheInsider]

If possible we should get some second-hand F-16s and upgrade them locally. 30 fighters will be enough.

 

[Yasar_TR]

SSB head İsmail Demir stated that 3 options are on the table as an alternative to the F-35.

F35 was going to replace ageing F4-2000 jets. As well as being a deep strike aircraft, F35-A is also a stealthy flying computer. But if it were to replace F4-2000 jets, then we were thinking of using these in “beast mode”. Their technological advantage was a bonus, that came with the plane.
So what we really need, are 30 or 40 planes, capable of carrying heavy weapons load to bridge the gap, before TFX becomes fully operational.
Russian systems will not be suitable for us. Totally different concept.
Chinese planes may be technically good but they don’t have an indigenous engine yet. What they are willing to sell, all come with Russian engines.
Forget the French.
That leaves US and UK.
option 1 : F16V upgrades on existing planes with 40 new f16V planes. (If ordered today, new planes won’t be delivered until after 2026.)
Option 2 : F2000 Tranche 4 Eurofighter. New orders won’t be in our hands until after 2026. German orders are a good example. Or buy second hand tranche 1-2 but have them upgraded to tranche 3 at least.
Eurofighter, has the smallest RCS among all the modern 4++ jets today. (At least that is what they claim) . It is twin engined and can hold it’s own even against F22. Tranche 3 is a better plane than most western jets. Most importantly, we have more chance of buying it from the British than any other plane around.
Personally I would rather hold on to what we have and modernise all our F16 fleet to “Ozgur” standard with new Aesa radar at any cost. Produce enough CAS Hurjets with Aesa radars to make up the difference for bombing sorties F4 jets are supposed to be doing. Invest in more AWACS/HIK Peace Eagle planes. Release the load on our F16 fleet with more Aksungur and Akinci UAV ‘s in operation in Eastern Turkey and South Eastern borders.

 

[Zafer]

We will have MIUS and what not within 5 years.

TFX as a plane that will have engine running by early 2023 can be flying in small batches by 2025 if rushed a little.

 

[Siper>MMU]

From proximity Teber video. What is that pod ? Looks like Talisman or Elta 8222. But I guess its 8222. I didnt know our F16s are capable of using them.

 

[Siper>MMU]

ELM/8225 pod. I wonder how they managed to integrate it, since our relations with İsrael is quite bad.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415278795930673152

 

[LegionnairE]

HÜRKUŞ- New Generation Basic Trainer Aircraft


New Generation Basic Trainer (HÜRKUŞ) Development Program contract was signed between the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries and Turkish Aerospace in March 2006. HÜRKUŞ with day and night mission capability; will be able to realize instrument flight, navigation and formation training phases.

Within the framework of the program; two aircraft configurations are being developed.

• HÜRKUŞ-A: Basic version which is to be certified with EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) according to CS-23 requirements.
• HÜRKUŞ-B: Advanced version with integrated avionics (including HUD, MFDs, and Mission Computer). Following the completion of taxi tests, the first aircraft of HÜRKUŞ-A Configuration successfully performed its first flight on August 29, 2013 at Turkish Aerospace's facilities. Consequent to the flight permission of SHGM (Turkish Civil Aviation General Directorate) and EASA the first flight, which lasted 33 minutes, was performed with open landing gear position at a height of 9500 ft. During the flight, the first checks were performed on control surfaces and a successful landing was realized.

The second aircraft has performed its first flight on September 10, 2014.

HÜRKUŞ, tandem two-seat, low-wing, single-engine, turboprop aircraft, is designed to ensure superior performance as a new generation advanced trainer aircraft and light attack & armed reconnaissance combat aircraft, in order to fulfil the complete training gap between elementary training and fighter aircraft conversion, as well as satisfying close air support roles in most demanding operational theatres.

HÜRKUŞ - TUSAS

HÜRKUŞ

www.tusas.com

I got banned from a certain Turkish defence forum for saying that Hürkuş C needs a targeting system for dumb bombs. In an environment where Syrians are doing barrel bombing, with mi17s dive bombing with a fast aircraft isn't so weird. Dive bombing can be very accurate depending on the skill of the pilot and you don't waste any smart munitions on a few terrorists...

In the video you posted, we can see Hürkuş-C flying very low to the ground, where you might as well do that.

But TFX won't be fully operational for another 8-10 years and fleet is aging, setting up new infrastructure is costly and time consuming but also need for new planes is certain. It won't be surprising to acquire more F16s. TurAF possibly already requesting it but relations..

I agree... it's absolutely unacceptable to wait until 2030 without any new acqusitions. We need something.

Typhoon, Gripen or Su57

Buying any more planes from America is off the table.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Su 57 is a monster of a plane. It looks most capable for air superiority, especially with the izdeliye 30 integrated. But it is Russian. So much change is needed within our system. Deliveries will be post 2027 if Russian orders are met first. It should be the last resort.
Gripen is full of foreign supplied parts and engine. Fit an f414GE400 with 22000lbf thrust engine to Hurjet with a good GaN based Aesa radar, then you have a plane better than a Gripen, as it would have so much unknowns to it’s adversaries.
Typhoon tranche 3 and 4 are the only ones to go for. Expensive! But tranche 4 is the most capable 4++ plane in the west with the lowest RCS that can hold it’s own against f22 ( or so it is claimed). Again new ones won’t be available until 2026 onwards and it will need new set up for maintenance and training etc.
Most logical solution is F16V70. US is already supplying us engines for t-129, Hurjet, TFX. If we gave an order of 40 new planes with Tusas, manufacturing the plane and TEI, the engine; They will not reject this as it will still be under Foreign Sales and LM will be making a sale in excess of 3+ billion dollars. Those of you that would say it is off the table : nothing ventured nothing gained. If the say no. Then we know exactly where we stand.
I however still stand by my view that f16 Ozgur modernisation with Aesa radar should be implemented to all our f16 planes until Hurjet and TFX is ready. Akinci and Aksungur can take the load off our fleet when it comes to terrorist bombing.

 

[Titanium100]

Su 57 is a monster of a plane. It looks most capable for air superiority, especially with the izdeliye 30 integrated. But it is Russian. So much change is needed within our system. Deliveries will be post 2027 if Russian orders are met first. It should be the last resort.
Gripen is full of foreign supplied parts and engine. Fit an f414GE400 with 22000lbf thrust engine to Hurjet with a good GaN based Aesa radar, then you have a plane better than a Gripen, as it would have so much unknowns to it’s adversaries.
Typhoon tranche 3 and 4 are the only ones to go for. Expensive! But tranche 4 is the most capable 4++ plane in the west with the lowest RCS that can hold it’s own against f22 ( or so it is claimed). Again new ones won’t be available until 2026 onwards and it will need new set up for maintenance and training etc.
Most logical solution is F16V70. US is already supplying us engines for t-129, Hurjet, TFX. If we gave an order of 40 new planes with Tusas, manufacturing the plane and TEI, the engine; They will not reject this as it will still be under Foreign Sales and LM will be making a sale in excess of 3+ billion dollars. Those of you that would say it is off the table : nothing ventured nothing gained. If the say no. Then we know exactly where we stand.

Truth be told. Stay away from Russian technology. All the other previous russian fighter jets turned out to be hype and what will make this one different. Turkish engineering is atleast honest when it comes to quality designing. I think Russia has not produced anything mindblowing since the soviet era for whatever reason and Russia has lived off that hype but it's defense industry is really not that innovative looking at it pragmatically

 

[LegionnairE]

Su 57 is a monster of a plane. It looks most capable for air superiority, especially with the izdeliye 30 integrated. But it is Russian. So much change is needed within our system. Deliveries will be post 2027 if Russian orders are met first. It should be the last resort.
Gripen is full of foreign supplied parts and engine. Fit an f414GE400 with 22000lbf thrust engine to Hurjet with a good GaN based Aesa radar, then you have a plane better than a Gripen, as it would have so much unknowns to it’s adversaries.
Typhoon tranche 3 and 4 are the only ones to go for. Expensive! But tranche 4 is the most capable 4++ plane in the west with the lowest RCS that can hold it’s own against f22 ( or so it is claimed). Again new ones won’t be available until 2026 onwards and it will need new set up for maintenance and training etc.
Most logical solution is F16V70. US is already supplying us engines for t-129, Hurjet, TFX. If we gave an order of 40 new planes with Tusas, manufacturing the plane and TEI, the engine; They will not reject this as it will still be under Foreign Sales and LM will be making a sale in excess of 3+ billion dollars. Those of you that would say it is off the table : nothing ventured nothing gained. If the say no. Then we know exactly where we stand.
I however still stand by my view that f16 Ozgur modernisation with Aesa radar should be implemented to all our f16 planes until Hurjet and TFX is ready. Akinci and Aksungur can take the load off our fleet when it comes to terrorist bombing.

It's not CAS that's the issue. You have to win the air war first. And we're biting off more than we can chew in the eastern mediterranean. We need more planes simple as.

Gripen is more than the sum of it's parts. It's a great airframe. It's agile like F16. Hürjet couldn't touch it.

I agree Typhoon is probably the best choice.

I'll gladly admit that I want Su57 mostly to piss off the Americans. The plane needs a lot of modifications to fit our needs, we need to be able to fit our own avionics, weapons, etc. It's not clear that Russians would allow that.

F16 is off the table after the F35 debacle. No more American planes.
Let Armenia buy their planes lol.

 

[Lool]

I agree... it's absolutely unacceptable to wait until 2030 without any new acqusitions. We need something.

Typhoon, Gripen or Su57

Buying any more planes from America is off the table.

Honestly any plane from the west is off the table IMO
Dont forget that it is those lovely western ppl who are supporting greece's claim
Moreover, any orders will probably arrive post 2025 which is useless tbh by then
I would like for TAI to develop 5th generation single engine fighter based on hurjet.... like make it a single seat, add an internal weapons bay and improve its airframe design; turkey is already close to completing the design review of the tfx and the prototype of the hurjet will roll out this year; thus, making such a plane with an AESEA radar will be 100% better than these expensive fighters

One of the reasons iam supporting erdo is that he is pushing his country's defense industry to the limits and recently milestones are being achieved! Thus, if he bought planes from abroad..... then why did u pick a fight with them in the first place tbh. Just let them take everything

IMO, if turkey is forced to buy a plane, then i would prefer su-35 rather than su-57. It is cheaper, better than rafale and will piss those hypocritical Americans soo much (it woupd feel good)
Although, i do belive that turkey will buy an f-15 if it ends up buying from abroad as a move to appease the americans for some time or a russian one
Typhoons are way too old by now.... it is a good plane but way too expensive as a stop gap tbh

 

[LegionnairE]

Honestly any plane from the west is off the table IMO
Dont forget that it is those lovely western ppl who are supporting greece's claim
Moreover, any orders will probably arrive post 2025 which is useless tbh by then
I would like for TAI to develop 5th generation single engine fighter based on hurjet.... like make it a single seat, add an internal weapons bay and improve its airframe design; turkey is already close to completing the design review of the tfx and the prototype of the hurjet will roll out this year; thus, making such a plane with an AESEA radar will be 100% better than these expensive fighters

One of the reasons iam supporting erdo is that he is pushing his country's defense industry to the limits and recently milestones are being achieved! Thus, if he bought planes from abroad..... then why did u pick a fight with them in the first place tbh. Just let them take everything

IMO, if turkey is forced to buy a plane, then i would prefer su-35 rather than su-57. It is cheaper, better than rafale and will piss those hypocritical Americans soo much (it woupd feel good)
Although, i do belive that turkey will buy an f-15 if it ends up buying from abroad as a move to appease the americans for some time or a russian one
Typhoons are way too old by now.... it is a good plane but way too expensive as a stop gap tbh

I'm not as pessimistic. Something could be worked out like Greece did with France. Some used planes to be transferred immediately, some to be delivered in 2 years time.

Let's not forget that Greece is also negotiating with the US for F35s and an order could be placed in a year or so. Which means the power imbalance is only going to grow.

We need something.

Also, Erdogan is the reason why we're in such a shitty situation. Say what you will about F35, the deal we had was amazing. We were supposed to make more money from producing F35 parts than the money we spent to buy the planes. It was a great deal and he ruined it and for what? We're not even using the S400... It's an absolute disaster that we paid money to buy.

Do we produce any S400 parts? no. Did we get any tech transfer? huge NO. Can we integrate it to our existing radar network? NO. It was a giant waste of money and the fact that we have no system inter-operability with S400 tells me that we probably can't integrate our own avionics and weapons to Su35 or Su57...

Expensive or not, Typhoon seems like the best alternative, Gripen is a close second.

 

[Lool]

I'm not as pessimistic. Something could be worked out like Greece did with France. Some used planes to be transferred immediately, some to be delivered in 2 years time.

Let's not forget that Greece is also negotiating with the US for F35s and an order could be placed in a year or so. Which means the power imbalance is only going to grow.

We need something.

Agree on this perspective tbh^^

Also, Erdog. is the reason why we're in such a shitty situation. Say what you will about F35, the deal we had was amazing. We were supposed to make more money from producing F35 parts than the money we spent to buy the planes. It was a great deal and he ruined it and for what? We're not even using the S400... It's an absolute disaster that we paid money to buy.

Not really.... its not like when erdo wanted air defence systems he immediately chose russia as his first choice
Erdo was begging usa for patriots from 2011 (like 10 years ago) and they refused because lovely littke israel didnt want to..... erdo then went to europe and france kept toying with turkey as if it is a plaything and when erdo wanted to buy from china then usa kept crying and nagging about it.... then pkk started excessive bombardment in turkish soil, greece got extremely aggressive after Trump took office and started realising their lovely plan and turkey still has nothing to use as a decent air defence system in the 20th century! All what was left were the russians and iam all for it tbh.... at least erdo had the guts to piss off those freaks and make it a sign to europe and usa that u cant just treat turks as playthings and turkish engineers and techinicians may finally understand "how" an air defence system should be and function (they may not be able to dismantle it but some insight gained is a given as turks arent idiots).... Not to mention that the s400 has a really long range. In fact, i once read in an article that if properly positioned, s400 radars can track most of greek airspace which is a must capability until turkey's hisar u and other long range systems are ready

It might seem a pain in the ass at first but it eventually bears fruit in the long term. Honestly, sometimes i think that most of turkish achievements today is due to embargoes which is kinda ironic as embargoes in most countries weaken you except in turkey and china..... lool

 

[Yasar_TR]

It's not CAS that's the issue. You have to win the air war first. And we're biting off more than we can chew in the eastern mediterranean. We need more planes simple as.

Gripen is more than the sum of it's parts. It's a great airframe. It's agile like F16. Hürjet couldn't touch it.

I agree Typhoon is probably the best choice.

I'll gladly admit that I want Su57 mostly to piss off the Americans. The plane needs a lot of modifications to fit our needs, we need to be able to fit our own avionics, weapons, etc. It's not clear that Russians would allow that.

F16 is off the table after the F35 debacle. No more American planes.
Let Armenia buy their planes lol.

I understand where you are coming from. I agree that we need more planes. CAS is not the main issue. Yes! But do we need more good dog-fighters? Or do we need good BVR fighters?
In my opinion, we need planes that can get to it’s stand off position quickly (super cruise at altitude) , planes that have the latest electronics and avionics with Aesa radars. We actually need more “Peace Eagle” planes to guide these jets. We need better and longer range air to air missiles. We need “Gökhan“ and Gokdogan block 2. So we need planes that can handle these missiles.
Like you have mentioned, Su57 is a great plane if they gave it to us with carcass and engine only. Or with access to codes. But they won’t do that. They would want to sell their own ammo and missiles. (Or would the Russians, with a view to piss off US, sell us these without avionics etc?)
After F35, US owes us money. New F16‘s or V70 upgrade could be on the table. Apart from Taiwan, no one is buying new planes in large quantities (apart from those countries’ officials that have been bribed to buy F35 planes). 8 planes here 14 planes there. No large orders. French and Russians have received more prospective orders. If we came up with a 40 piece order ???

 

[LegionnairE]

Agree on this perspective tbh^^

Not really.... its not like when erdo wanted air defence systems he immediately chose russia as his first choice
Erdo was begging usa for patriots from 2011 (like 10 years ago) and they refused because lovely littke israel didnt want to...

It's a false perspective. PATRIOT systems competed against S400 in high altitude air defence systems tender. Turkey chose S400. First the chinese system was chosen because it was the cheapest. etc. But long story short Turkey didn't want to buy PATRIOTs.

That begging you mentioned was about NATO article 4. We wanted NATO to send PATRIOT missile batteries to defend against ballistic missile threats along the Syrian border. That was a whole different thing.

I understand where you are coming from. I agree that we need more planes. CAS is not the main issue. Yes! But do we need more good dog-fighters? Or do we need good BVR fighters?

There's really no real difference. We need planes that can do both. You can't just expect to throw missiles from long distance and go back to base, there's always the possibility of a merge

US could pay our money back as F110 engines. We need a lot of them. And various other engines...
Yeah I guess some F16 Block 70ies wouldn't hurt.

 

[Blank1]

Many members are too stressed with that there are no new Jets and our F16's are old etc.
If Indian Mig's and Pakistani Mirages are still flying our F16's surely can deal with any immediate threats and they will be upgraded with national assets.

US couldn't stop Pakistan from modifying their F16's to carry nukes, modifying P3 or tweaking harpoon missiles. When Pakistan was done with all that US said they gave them permission. We can also modify what ever we want.

If Turkey wants to piss off US, just collaborate on BRI (Belt and Road Initiative), It will sweat allot of people in High Halls.

We don't need any expensive and fancy trojan horse, we need our own jet. We are done with the frenemies.

If all else fails JF 17 Block 3 isn't going any where it costs some where between 35 to 40 million. The jet is new with AESA redar, access to massive arsenal of China, Can be equipped with all local missiles and bombs, Full access to codes and if the need ends can be returned or sold to third part.

 

[Ryder]

It's a false perspective. PATRIOT systems competed against S400 in high altitude air defence systems tender. Turkey chose S400. First the chinese system was chosen because it was the cheapest. etc. But long story short Turkey didn't want to buy PATRIOTs.

That begging you mentioned was about NATO article 4. We wanted NATO to send PATRIOT missile batteries to defend against ballistic missile threats along the Syrian border. That was a whole different thing.


There's really no real difference. We need planes that can do both. You can't just expect to throw missiles from long distance and go back to base, there's always the possibility of a merge

US could pay our money back as F110 engines. We need a lot of them. And various other engines...
Yeah I guess some F16 Block 70ies wouldn't hurt.

Man im not a F35 fanboy but I still want my F35s.

I have a love and hate relationship with it. I hate it while at the same time I want it.

 

[LegionnairE]

Many members are too stressed with that there are no new Jets and our F16's are old etc.
If Indian Mig's and Pakistani Mirages are still flying our F16's surely can deal with any immediate threats and they will be upgraded with national assets.

US couldn't stop Pakistan from modifying their F16's to carry nukes, modifying P3 or tweaking harpoon missiles. When Pakistan was done with all that US said they gave them permission. We can also modify what ever we want.

If Turkey wants to piss off US, just collaborate on BRI (Belt and Road Initiative), It will sweat allot of people in High Halls.

We don't need any expensive and fancy trojan horse, we need our own jet. We are done with the frenemies.

If all else fails JF 17 Block 3 isn't going any where it costs some where between 35 to 40 million. The jet is new with AESA redar, access to massive arsenal of China, Can be equipped with all local missiles and bombs, Full access to codes and if the need ends can be returned or sold to third part.

You realize that Pakistan lost most engagements with India right?

Man im not a F35 fanboy but I still want my F35s.

I have a love and hate relationship with it. I hate it while at the same time I want it.

Yeah I'm not either but as I said, the deal was sweet

I mean the plane was good but being part of the program was... gooder

 

[Test7]

Dear members;

Please stay on the topic.

 

[kenny]

What i said was that,the r73 Pakistan showed was fake because of serial numbers being fake,learn to read bud.



What?
View attachment 26236

Regarding your independent story,most of the articles have "quoted" your POV,that doesn't mean it's true.
Ex-Pakistan "says" it shot down two indian fighters~BBC

India - Pakistan Relations

MOD NOTE: India Pakistan relations thread from Indian side. ==================================================================================== The NIA Tuesday filed a charge sheet naming Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) chief Masood Azhar, his brother Abdul Rauf Asghar and 17 others for “carrying...

defencehub.live

Come to this thread to make further discussion.

 

[Pilatino]

You know what if he can really do most of that projects in 2023, I'll vote for him for the first time in my life as a 31 y.o. man.