USA F-35 Lightning II

[Rooxbar]

I don't know why you used Germany as an example when there is so many better examples you could have used, German military is a joke.

Conventional wisdom one-liners don't mean anything. Reality is always much more complex than even the most sophisticated of analysis, and I'm pretty sure you haven't done any field reporting or analysis of German Army. I used them as an example because the news is the most recent.

 

[Crush716]

Password loading …

Damn that looks dope

 

[Windchime]

South Korea gets passwords from US soldiers every day to air the F-35s it bought from the USA.

In Britain's F-35 training documentary, it was shown that the pilot was waiting for the password to prepare for the flight and could not move the plane when he entered the wrong password.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603667356844265472

I think I'm correcting this the third time now on this forum. That article is based on pure jibberish.

The original source of these claims is an article from a Korean military magazine called Defense Review and it's pretty well known for its unreliable reportage, since they report anything that suits their narrative + their editors and authors are very ignorant on the bureaucratic and technical matters. This particular article, the article about Korean F-35s and so-call "codes" they need to "boot" the jets, was met with a lot of criticism for the sheer amount of misinformation.

No, there were no Korean pilots or soldiers interviewed for the matter. No, the F-35 doesn't need any "codes" to start up. What the magazine article/blog post mentioned was the encryption key for Link 16 connection, which is updated every day. Publishing of Link 16 encryption keys are controlled by the respective US commands in each theater around the globe and any of these "restrictions" the article is mentioning also applies to every allied forces that uses Link 16, including Türkiye.

 

[Baryshx]

F35 is a flying computer, an unknown equation, the strings are in the hands of the USA. By the way, it's funny how countries other than the UK and Israel think they're allies of the US.

 

[Windchime]

F35 is a flying computer, an unknown equation, the strings are in the hands of the USA. By the way, it's funny how countries other than the UK and Israel think they're allies of the US.

Yeah, because they have actual bilateral defence treaties and are guaranteed nuclear umbrella...?

 

[Chocopie]

I think I'm correcting this the third time now on this forum. That article is based on pure jibberish.

The original source of these claims is an article from a Korean military magazine called Defense Review and it's pretty well known for its unreliable reportage, since they report anything that suits their narrative + their editors and authors are very ignorant on the bureaucratic and technical matters. This particular article, the article about Korean F-35s and so-call "codes" they need to "boot" the jets, was met with a lot of criticism for the sheer amount of misinformation.

No, there were no Korean pilots or soldiers interviewed for the matter. No, the F-35 doesn't need any "codes" to start up. What the magazine article/blog post mentioned was the encryption key for Link 16 connection, which is updated every day. Publishing of Link 16 encryption keys are controlled by the respective US commands in each theater around the globe and any of these "restrictions" the article is mentioning also applies to every allied forces that uses Link 16, including Türkiye.

Typical coping strategy: Holding on to any perceived shred of „proof“ that F-35 is shit and controlled by the evil empire …

A little band aid is needed for all the butthurt haters.

The five stages of grief:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

 

[Baryshx]

Yeah, because they have actual bilateral defence treaties and are guaranteed nuclear umbrella...?

If the umbrella opens 1 minute late, the problem is big. Does Korea have a secret nuclear program? I think it should...

 

[Windchime]

If the umbrella opens 1 minute late, the problem is big. Does Korea have a secret nuclear program? I think it should...

That's not how a nuclear umbrella works in the first place. Importance of time sensitivity is relatively low in th function of nuclear umbrella. What's important is the confidence that it will work, should it be needed. Anyways, if you want to talk more about the security relations between the US and its allies, we could continue in an appropriate thread in the US Forum. It's time to get back to F-35.

 

[Lool]

In Britain's F-35 training documentary, it was shown that the pilot was waiting for the password to prepare for the flight and could not move the plane when he entered the wrong password.

I do remember a video showing that exact same incident on Youtube
Whenever I talk about how lucky Turkey didnt change all of its F16s into F35s as originally planned, I get the desire of sharing such video but no matter how much I search for it, I couldnt find it

I did hear some rumors that Youtube removed it but Iam not sure if the rumors are legit

 

[Xenon54]

F35 is a flying computer, an unknown equation, the strings are in the hands of the USA. By the way, it's funny how countries other than the UK and Israel think they're allies of the US.

Its 2022, what do you expect, manual actuators and analog dsiplays on fighters?
Just buy Rusian junk if you dont like computers and see which one wins wars.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I think mods should delete post containing fake news. Doesn’t bring anything good other than pollute threads and the forum.

 

[blackjack]

Its 2022, what do you expect, manual actuators and analog dsiplays on fighters?
Just buy Rusian junk if you dont like computers and see which one wins wars.

thing is U.S. isn't that good with computers based on all the glitches and crashes with the aircraft, I wasn't even the least bit surprised that they didnt even want to pursue a drone version of the B-21. Although I am not done with my article because I have been busy lately at work. https://defenceforumindia.com/threa...ncomplete-will-edit-and-add-info-later.83650/ I am getting nothing but good vibes in Russia's aerospace news.

 

[Gary]

A very useful information from Abhirup Sengupta here.

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/APG-77 V1, or APG-81?

F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and are at least two generations ahead since the US had 20 years head-start in operational AESA radars on Fighters, with F-15C receiving APG-63v2 in early 2000.

[1]
You can see the disparity in technology in their antenna design. The Su-57’s radar has a slotted antenna, whereas APG-77 and APG-81 use notch antennas which are difficult to design but offer significantly greater bandwidth.

In other words, the APG-77 and APG-81 have much larger bandwidth and gain (directivity) which translates to the two having far superior LPI characteristics and jamming resistance (ECCMs) and of course, much better resolution. You can actually see things like lawn mower patterns and cracks on the runway in APG-81’s published SAR images. This resolution is what gives APG-77v1 and APG-81 Automatic ground Target Identification capability.

Whereas the Irbis-E on Felon’s predecessor, Su-35 has a SAR resolution comparable to F-15E’s 20 year old Mechanical radar (APG-70). In fact, even 15 year old RBE2 PESA radar on Rafale could track more targets (40 vs. 30)

[2]
despite being nearly half the size of Irbis-E. That is the state of Russia’s most advanced Fighter-radar after N036.


The APG-77v1 and APG-81’s large bandwidth also allows the F-22 and F-35 to use their radar for powerful broadband jamming. Their radar is the primary transmitter for the EW suite, providing 10 times effective radiated jamming power of dedicated EW platforms.

[3]
This is what allows F-22 and F-35 to provide escort-jamming support to legacy aircraft, whereas Su-57’s EW suite is purely for Self-Protection. The N036 radar is expected to have limited Electronic Attack capability but it’s highly unlikely that the current radar has any such capability. The Su-57 very likely needs a new antenna design to accommodate EA capability – similar to how EF Typhoon requires a brand new AESA radar (ECRS Mk 2) for EA operations. This is mainly because a jammer requires wider bandwidth in order to be viable, preferably requiring a notch antenna. Of course, a post-production upgraded radar can’t match the level of integration to one designed from the onset to be deeply integrated with the EW suite. Just like Typhoon’s ECRS Mk 2 and F-18E/F’s APG-79, future Su-57 radar’s EA capability will not be anywhere close to that of F-35 or F-22.


Likewise, the L402 is unlikely to have anywhere near the accuracy or sensitivity of either ALR-94 or ASQ-239. It will probably have 1° accuracy in azimuth but double-digits in elevation angle for airborne emitters, just like latest EW suites in modern 4.5 gen. platforms. The difference is that not only ALR-94 and ASQ-239 outrange most radars (early ALR-94 had a range exceeding 460 km) but can provide targeting solution against airborne emitters with little to no radar support – something that requires at least 3 Typhoon/Rafale working together. We already know that a single F-35 can track an emitter faster and with better precision than a flight of three F-16CJ (Wild Weasel) surrounding the emitter.

[4]


It’s also worth remembering that L402 is Russia’s first modern integrated EW suite, until Su-35 Russian Fighters largely relied on external Self-Protection jamming pods (Khibiny). Moreover, if Su-57’s EW suite was anywhere near ALR-94 or ASQ-239 (1° by 1° accuracy against airborne targets) then there would be no need for side-mounted N036B radars that expands the targeting envelope of off-boresight missiles from 180° to 240°. A powerful EW suite can provide comparable targeting capability at least in the short-range envelope of the side-mounted radars (they’re about 20% the size of front radar). Lack of further claims about L402’s performance so late into the program further points to the notion that it’s closer to the EW suites of high-end 4.5 gen. platforms than F-22 & F-35.

The Su-57 also lacks a LPI (tightly-focussed, frequency agile) datalink like MADL (F-35) or IFDL (F-22). This not only increases Su-57’s RF signature while using datalink along with being relatively more prone to jamming (smaller bandwidth) but also comes with significantly lower throughput compared to MADL with AESA apertures operating at K-band. For context, F-22’s APG-77 radar achieved transmission rates reaching 548 Mbit/sec

[5]
compared to Link 16 operating at UHF/L band having a throughout around 1 Mbit/sec. The Su-57’s omnidirectional datalink while certainly better will have throughput a lot closer to Link 16 than MADL or IFDL. It’s just the physical limitations of operating with omnidirectional low frequency bands. This means the F-22 and F-35 can not only use their datalink in a contested airspace but are also capable of sharing an order of magnitude larger volume of data, which dramatically increases Situational Awareness.


Almost every sensor on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than those on Su-57 and this is only further amplified with Sensor Fusion. There’s just so much more data in F-22 and especially F-35 – the F-35 generates almost 1 TB of sensory data per flight.

[6]
Just having more high-fidelity data to begin with puts F-22 & F-35’s Sensor Fusion far ahead and unlike others, their Fusion engine can ‘manage’ individual sensors, such as telling DAS to track a target that has moved beyond the radar’s FoV or cueing the radar to get ‘range’ data of a target being tracked by the EW suite. This is part of the reason why F-22 and F-35’s Sensor Fusion are on a league of their own. To quote a former Commander of RAF Typhoon squadron,

“I’ll give you an example. I commanded a Typhoon squadron for two years.
Very early on this job with F-35, I was lucky enough to fly the F-35 simulator. and the different way in which F35 displays information compared to Typhoon is eye-catching.
In fact, I asked for the simulator to be stopped because I was taken aback by the information being displayed to me.
There was just so much data available at my fingertips, but displayed in a really different sense than in Typhoon.
So very, very quickly, I knew a great deal about the entity being targeted – sensor fusion at work.
I think it’s a very different way of displaying information that any other fast jet has done before…”
[7]

The Su-57 is Russia’s first aircraft with Sensor Fusion, its predecessor Su-35 that became operational 6 years before doesn’t have one and it does put things into perspective. The only thing in Su-57 which has any kind of advantage worth mentioning is 101KS-O Directed Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM aka Lasers). In theory this does provide Su-57 an advantage against modern IR missiles with Imaging IR seekers.

However, a lot of that advantage is negated by lack of a competent Missile Warning System (MWS). The Su-57 continue to rely on a UV-based MWS which are practically useless against BVR missiles since they’re limited to detecting missile launches in close visual-ranges at altitudes. And of course, the RCS spike from those DIRCM turrets acting as radar-reflectors only help radar-guided missiles.

---

Throughout the Cold War USSR/Russia have been 10 to 15 years behind the West in avionics and the gap has only increased after the end of Cold War. It’s an undisputed fact that F-22 and especially, F-35’s avionics suite is a whole generation ahead of Su-57. There’s day and night difference between the Situational Awareness of F-22/F-35 and Su-57. There really is no contest.

This doesn’t necessarily make Su-57 a bad aircraft. The program did introduce a lot of breakthroughs for the Russian aerospace industry. The Su-57 is not only among the very first Russian aircraft to have an operational AESA radar but also a Sensor Fusion, even if it might be in a league closer to those on modern 4.5th gen. than F-35. Likewise, Su-57 is also the first Russian aircraft to have a true integrated EW suite (without requiring external jamming pods) and with potential to carry decoys like Brite cloud – this would be a first for Russia since none of their Fighters are currently equipped with either a towed or expendable decoy; although this is unlikely to happen for another decade at the least.

In many ways the Su-57 bridges some of the gap with modern 4.5 gen. platforms (EF Typhoon, Rafale, F-18E, F-15EX, etc.) which contrary to Russian propaganda enjoy a significant advantage over Su-35 or Mig-29K when it comes to avionics suite. With stealth (low-RCS) no matter how mediocre, Su-57 can present a serious threat to Western 4th gen. platforms, something the Su-35 could never do. This is what I believe Su-57’s design actually tried to accomplish. The problem comes when you try to put it along the lines of F-22 and F-35, something it can’t really compete with outside airshows.

If Russian Airforce transitions to Su-57 fleet then it will force the US and in particular European countries to invest more heavily into procurement of LO platforms. Sadly for Russia this seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Footnotes

[1]

Air Force improves F-15C radar
[2]

Serious Squall - Aviation Today
[3]

Vanguard Magazine - The Joint Strike Fighter: Driven By Data
[4]

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
[5]

Radar Transmitting Data - Aviation Today
[6]

[7]

Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier - Second Line of Defense

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/...

Answer (1 of 9): F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and ...

www.quora.com

 

[Gary]

A very useful information from Abhirup Sengupta here.

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/APG-77 V1, or APG-81?

F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and are at least two generations ahead since the US had 20 years head-start in operational AESA radars on Fighters, with F-15C receiving APG-63v2 in early 2000.

[1]
You can see the disparity in technology in their antenna design. The Su-57’s radar has a slotted antenna, whereas APG-77 and APG-81 use notch antennas which are difficult to design but offer significantly greater bandwidth.

In other words, the APG-77 and APG-81 have much larger bandwidth and gain (directivity) which translates to the two having far superior LPI characteristics and jamming resistance (ECCMs) and of course, much better resolution. You can actually see things like lawn mower patterns and cracks on the runway in APG-81’s published SAR images. This resolution is what gives APG-77v1 and APG-81 Automatic ground Target Identification capability.

Whereas the Irbis-E on Felon’s predecessor, Su-35 has a SAR resolution comparable to F-15E’s 20 year old Mechanical radar (APG-70). In fact, even 15 year old RBE2 PESA radar on Rafale could track more targets (40 vs. 30)

[2]
despite being nearly half the size of Irbis-E. That is the state of Russia’s most advanced Fighter-radar after N036.


The APG-77v1 and APG-81’s large bandwidth also allows the F-22 and F-35 to use their radar for powerful broadband jamming. Their radar is the primary transmitter for the EW suite, providing 10 times effective radiated jamming power of dedicated EW platforms.

[3]
This is what allows F-22 and F-35 to provide escort-jamming support to legacy aircraft, whereas Su-57’s EW suite is purely for Self-Protection. The N036 radar is expected to have limited Electronic Attack capability but it’s highly unlikely that the current radar has any such capability. The Su-57 very likely needs a new antenna design to accommodate EA capability – similar to how EF Typhoon requires a brand new AESA radar (ECRS Mk 2) for EA operations. This is mainly because a jammer requires wider bandwidth in order to be viable, preferably requiring a notch antenna. Of course, a post-production upgraded radar can’t match the level of integration to one designed from the onset to be deeply integrated with the EW suite. Just like Typhoon’s ECRS Mk 2 and F-18E/F’s APG-79, future Su-57 radar’s EA capability will not be anywhere close to that of F-35 or F-22.


Likewise, the L402 is unlikely to have anywhere near the accuracy or sensitivity of either ALR-94 or ASQ-239. It will probably have 1° accuracy in azimuth but double-digits in elevation angle for airborne emitters, just like latest EW suites in modern 4.5 gen. platforms. The difference is that not only ALR-94 and ASQ-239 outrange most radars (early ALR-94 had a range exceeding 460 km) but can provide targeting solution against airborne emitters with little to no radar support – something that requires at least 3 Typhoon/Rafale working together. We already know that a single F-35 can track an emitter faster and with better precision than a flight of three F-16CJ (Wild Weasel) surrounding the emitter.

[4]


It’s also worth remembering that L402 is Russia’s first modern integrated EW suite, until Su-35 Russian Fighters largely relied on external Self-Protection jamming pods (Khibiny). Moreover, if Su-57’s EW suite was anywhere near ALR-94 or ASQ-239 (1° by 1° accuracy against airborne targets) then there would be no need for side-mounted N036B radars that expands the targeting envelope of off-boresight missiles from 180° to 240°. A powerful EW suite can provide comparable targeting capability at least in the short-range envelope of the side-mounted radars (they’re about 20% the size of front radar). Lack of further claims about L402’s performance so late into the program further points to the notion that it’s closer to the EW suites of high-end 4.5 gen. platforms than F-22 & F-35.

The Su-57 also lacks a LPI (tightly-focussed, frequency agile) datalink like MADL (F-35) or IFDL (F-22). This not only increases Su-57’s RF signature while using datalink along with being relatively more prone to jamming (smaller bandwidth) but also comes with significantly lower throughput compared to MADL with AESA apertures operating at K-band. For context, F-22’s APG-77 radar achieved transmission rates reaching 548 Mbit/sec

[5]
compared to Link 16 operating at UHF/L band having a throughout around 1 Mbit/sec. The Su-57’s omnidirectional datalink while certainly better will have throughput a lot closer to Link 16 than MADL or IFDL. It’s just the physical limitations of operating with omnidirectional low frequency bands. This means the F-22 and F-35 can not only use their datalink in a contested airspace but are also capable of sharing an order of magnitude larger volume of data, which dramatically increases Situational Awareness.


Almost every sensor on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than those on Su-57 and this is only further amplified with Sensor Fusion. There’s just so much more data in F-22 and especially F-35 – the F-35 generates almost 1 TB of sensory data per flight.

[6]
Just having more high-fidelity data to begin with puts F-22 & F-35’s Sensor Fusion far ahead and unlike others, their Fusion engine can ‘manage’ individual sensors, such as telling DAS to track a target that has moved beyond the radar’s FoV or cueing the radar to get ‘range’ data of a target being tracked by the EW suite. This is part of the reason why F-22 and F-35’s Sensor Fusion are on a league of their own. To quote a former Commander of RAF Typhoon squadron,



The Su-57 is Russia’s first aircraft with Sensor Fusion, its predecessor Su-35 that became operational 6 years before doesn’t have one and it does put things into perspective. The only thing in Su-57 which has any kind of advantage worth mentioning is 101KS-O Directed Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM aka Lasers). In theory this does provide Su-57 an advantage against modern IR missiles with Imaging IR seekers.

However, a lot of that advantage is negated by lack of a competent Missile Warning System (MWS). The Su-57 continue to rely on a UV-based MWS which are practically useless against BVR missiles since they’re limited to detecting missile launches in close visual-ranges at altitudes. And of course, the RCS spike from those DIRCM turrets acting as radar-reflectors only help radar-guided missiles.

---

Throughout the Cold War USSR/Russia have been 10 to 15 years behind the West in avionics and the gap has only increased after the end of Cold War. It’s an undisputed fact that F-22 and especially, F-35’s avionics suite is a whole generation ahead of Su-57. There’s day and night difference between the Situational Awareness of F-22/F-35 and Su-57. There really is no contest.

This doesn’t necessarily make Su-57 a bad aircraft. The program did introduce a lot of breakthroughs for the Russian aerospace industry. The Su-57 is not only among the very first Russian aircraft to have an operational AESA radar but also a Sensor Fusion, even if it might be in a league closer to those on modern 4.5th gen. than F-35. Likewise, Su-57 is also the first Russian aircraft to have a true integrated EW suite (without requiring external jamming pods) and with potential to carry decoys like Brite cloud – this would be a first for Russia since none of their Fighters are currently equipped with either a towed or expendable decoy; although this is unlikely to happen for another decade at the least.

In many ways the Su-57 bridges some of the gap with modern 4.5 gen. platforms (EF Typhoon, Rafale, F-18E, F-15EX, etc.) which contrary to Russian propaganda enjoy a significant advantage over Su-35 or Mig-29K when it comes to avionics suite. With stealth (low-RCS) no matter how mediocre, Su-57 can present a serious threat to Western 4th gen. platforms, something the Su-35 could never do. This is what I believe Su-57’s design actually tried to accomplish. The problem comes when you try to put it along the lines of F-22 and F-35, something it can’t really compete with outside airshows.

If Russian Airforce transitions to Su-57 fleet then it will force the US and in particular European countries to invest more heavily into procurement of LO platforms. Sadly for Russia this seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Footnotes

[1]

Air Force improves F-15C radar
[2]

Serious Squall - Aviation Today
[3]

Vanguard Magazine - The Joint Strike Fighter: Driven By Data
[4]

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
[5]

Radar Transmitting Data - Aviation Today
[6]

[7]

Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier - Second Line of Defense

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/...

Answer (1 of 9): F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and ...

www.quora.com

The Su-57’s radar has 1,552 T/R modules which makes it smaller than both F-22 (~2,000 TRMs) and F-35’s radar (~1,676 TRMs) but that’s just tip of the ice berg. The N036 is Russia’s first generation AESA radar along with Zhuk-AM on Mig-35 compared to 3rd gen. APG-77v1 and APG-81 on F-22 & F-35. This is because US had 20 years head start in operational AESA radars on Fighters, with the F-15C receiving APG-63v(2) in 2000.

[1]


The disparity in technology is large enough to be visible in their antenna design. The N036 on Su-57 uses a slotted antenna.

Whereas APG-77 and APG-81 have notch antenna. In fact, this is the case with all American AESA radars on legacy aircraft today (APG-83, APG-82, APG-79).

Patch or slot antennas are easier to design but offer relatively poor gain and bandwidth. The biggest advantage of notch antenna is in radar’s bandwidth which has significant impact over LPI characteristics and jamming resistance (ECCMs). This table provides an overview.

[2]

TSA = Notch antenna

It’s worth noting that Russian radars have historically lagged behind especially when it comes to bandwidth. For example, Irbis-E has comparable SAR resolution to that of 20 year old Mechanical radar on F-15E.

[3]


In simple words, the N036 is going to be significantly behind in LPI characteristics and ECCMs. The Su-57’s radar will be much easier to detect, which may explain the lack of emphasis/marketing around N036’s LPI characteristics and this is really bad from the perspective of a LO aircraft.

Based on the sheer size of aperture, the N036 should have marginally better range than F-16, Gripen-E and Rafale’s radar and comparable to that of F-18E/F and Typhoon under ideal conditions. Though it’ll likely have inferior LPI characteristics and ECCMs than all of them.

There’s no data about Su-57’s L402 EW suite other than it having a wing mounted L band antenna and a jammer in the rear sting.

[4]
The L band antennas are primarily for IFF but can also act as a jammer. Worth noting that this will be Russia’s first Integrated EW suite on a Fighter, the Su-35 mostly relied on external Khibiny jamming pod.


L402 EW suite is reported to be capable of using AESA radar for some EW operations. However, this is quite unlikely with the current N036 radar’s slot antenna. The EF Typhoon with similar capability requires a brand new AESA radar (ECRS Mk 2) being built with greater bandwidth to support limited EW operations

[5]
because a jammer requires wider bandwidth to be viable, ideally requiring a notch antenna. The current Captor-E appears to have a slotted antenna.
[6]


Regardless, it won’t be anywhere as capable as F-22 and F-35’s radar that act as the primary transmitter for their EW suite – allowing them to provide stand-off jamming support to legacy platforms. The L402 is also unlikely to have anywhere near the accuracy or sensitivity of either ALR-94 or ASQ-239. It will probably have 1° accuracy in azimuth but double-digits in elevation angle for airborne emitters, just like latest EW suites in modern 4th gen. aircraft. If L402 was anywhere near ALR-94 and ASQ-239 (1° by 1° accuracy against airborne targets) then there would be no need for side-mounted N036B radars that expands the targeting envelope of off-boresight missiles from 180° to 240°. A powerful EW suite can provide similar performance, at least in the short-range envelope of the side-mounted radars (they’re roughly 20% the size of main radar). Side-mounted radars not only complicate RCS but also increase production and maintenance cost. When you’re on a tight budget, you don’t want them unless there’s no other alternative.

Another problem for Su-57 is that it doesn’t have LPI (tightly focused) datalinks like MADL (F-35) or IFDL (F-22). So you can’t have multiple Su-57 sharing L402 data without increasing their RF signature. This isn’t a big deal when facing 4th gen. platforms but if your opponent is a F-22 or F-35, then you might as well be using the radar. This is a big problem for PLAAF’s J-20 as well.

So unlike the ALR-94 and ASQ-239 capable of providing targeting quality data passively with minimum assistance from the radar, allowing F-22 and F-35 to further minimise their radar emission – the L402 EW suite will be of little assistance to Su-57 which must rely on the radar for Situational Awareness. The L402 will certainly increase Situational Awareness but the radar is still the primary means of Situational Awareness on Su-57 and given poor LPI characteristics, it’ll significantly compromise Su-57’s already poor signature when facing F-22 or F-35.

---

But none of that is really relevant in a confrontation between Su-57 and F-22/F-35. You see, the Su-57 in best case scenario has 1,000 times bigger RCS than F-22 according to Sukhoi’s own patent.

[7]
That equates to a radar detecting Su-57 from almost 6 times greater range than F-22 and F-35.


In simple words, even if Su-57 were carrying an AWACS sized radar – the F-22 would still be detecting Su-57 long before it could be detected by Felon. This isn’t merely a speculation, the F-22 and F-35 routinely kill 4th gen. aircraft even when they’re backed by E-2C or E-3 Sentry.

“I have been covering the Raptor and the F-35 since beginning of both programs. It is one thing to intellectually grasp the power of stealth, but seeing it in action makes one a believer—our flight had no idea, no warning from the AWACS or GCI that we were about to be hit until it was all over. It’s nearly impossible to fight an enemy you can’t see.”
[8]

That is the power of stealth and the reason why no matter how good your sensors are, you can never be in a fight against VLO without Stealth. Sadly, Su-57 doesn’t really come anywhere close to F-22/F-35’s avionics suite, not that it would have mattered anyways.

The Su-57 is so outclassed in a BVR combat against F-22 and F-35 that it’s not even funny. This is why beneath all the propaganda and hype, Su-57 was never designed to compete with either F-22 or F-35, there’s no way on earth it can. Instead it was designed to compete with modern 4th gen. aircraft, specifically European Fighters which actually surpasses Su-35 by a significant margin in terms of both avionics suite and armament. But I’m sure the Russian fanboys disagree, either by trashing Sukhoi’s own patent or trashing Lockheed/USAF’s data…

How powerful are SU-57's radar/avionics like N036 AESA radar and L402 ECM suite as examples? Are they able to detect F-22 in a BVR or dog...

Answer (1 of 5): The Su-57’s radar has 1,552 T/R modules which makes it smaller than both F-22 (~2,000 TRMs) and F-35’s radar (~1,676 TRMs) but that’s just tip of the ice berg. The N036 is Russia’s first generation AESA radar along with Zhuk-AM on Mig-35 compared to 3rd gen. APG-77v1 and APG-81 o...

www.quora.com

 

[Windchime]

I get the 20 years leap in AESA (Russia states they are 10-15 years behind the U.S. according to KRET or their radar companies) but how is the U.S. in photonic radars? when was the last time the F-35 had and avionic upgrade since like 2008 and 2009? Did he take account that the avionics of the Su-57 were going to be upgraded between 2022-2024? What about all those radar books from Niip, Phazatron and KRET that photonic radars are being developed for 6th gen and a replacement for the Su-57? Does he know that Russia would start massive production in 2024 for photonic integrated circuits? Does he know how superior PICs are to MMICs?

Why do I always see Russians bringing up their photonic radars that has never been fielded as an excuse of having mediocre RF technology... Besides the fact that the west is also decades ahead of them in photonics and have fielded various commercial applications of it?

So how exactly is the F-35 better when the Su-75 uses the same sensors(360 degree passive/infrared detection), stealth and weapons while exceeding performances on the F-35s with 1/3rd to 1/2nd times the costs. While the Su-57 combines stealth with a maneuverable profile and a more complex avionics suite than some Indian that butchered the aircrafts stealth and avionics suites from western sources as horrible as national interest but nothing from Russian sources describing a Russian aircraft? He can't even read a patent either that the aircraft didn't use composites or RAM in the reading, they gave an all aspect reading while the F-22 was given a frontal aspect only reading where radar signatures are always the lowest (they already gave the stealth reading of the F-22 as well and its not .00000000000000001m2)

By having way better individual sensors and sensor suites, sensor management and data fusion leaguse ahead of the Russians and far superior computing power?


Also, good luck after wasting all that money in Ukraine. Their new wepons program were already progressing at a slug's speed or not progressing at all and now things are even worse for them.

 

[Afif]

A very useful information from Abhirup Sengupta here.

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/APG-77 V1, or APG-81?

F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and are at least two generations ahead since the US had 20 years head-start in operational AESA radars on Fighters, with F-15C receiving APG-63v2 in early 2000.

[1]
You can see the disparity in technology in their antenna design. The Su-57’s radar has a slotted antenna, whereas APG-77 and APG-81 use notch antennas which are difficult to design but offer significantly greater bandwidth.

In other words, the APG-77 and APG-81 have much larger bandwidth and gain (directivity) which translates to the two having far superior LPI characteristics and jamming resistance (ECCMs) and of course, much better resolution. You can actually see things like lawn mower patterns and cracks on the runway in APG-81’s published SAR images. This resolution is what gives APG-77v1 and APG-81 Automatic ground Target Identification capability.

Whereas the Irbis-E on Felon’s predecessor, Su-35 has a SAR resolution comparable to F-15E’s 20 year old Mechanical radar (APG-70). In fact, even 15 year old RBE2 PESA radar on Rafale could track more targets (40 vs. 30)

[2]
despite being nearly half the size of Irbis-E. That is the state of Russia’s most advanced Fighter-radar after N036.


The APG-77v1 and APG-81’s large bandwidth also allows the F-22 and F-35 to use their radar for powerful broadband jamming. Their radar is the primary transmitter for the EW suite, providing 10 times effective radiated jamming power of dedicated EW platforms.

[3]
This is what allows F-22 and F-35 to provide escort-jamming support to legacy aircraft, whereas Su-57’s EW suite is purely for Self-Protection. The N036 radar is expected to have limited Electronic Attack capability but it’s highly unlikely that the current radar has any such capability. The Su-57 very likely needs a new antenna design to accommodate EA capability – similar to how EF Typhoon requires a brand new AESA radar (ECRS Mk 2) for EA operations. This is mainly because a jammer requires wider bandwidth in order to be viable, preferably requiring a notch antenna. Of course, a post-production upgraded radar can’t match the level of integration to one designed from the onset to be deeply integrated with the EW suite. Just like Typhoon’s ECRS Mk 2 and F-18E/F’s APG-79, future Su-57 radar’s EA capability will not be anywhere close to that of F-35 or F-22.


Likewise, the L402 is unlikely to have anywhere near the accuracy or sensitivity of either ALR-94 or ASQ-239. It will probably have 1° accuracy in azimuth but double-digits in elevation angle for airborne emitters, just like latest EW suites in modern 4.5 gen. platforms. The difference is that not only ALR-94 and ASQ-239 outrange most radars (early ALR-94 had a range exceeding 460 km) but can provide targeting solution against airborne emitters with little to no radar support – something that requires at least 3 Typhoon/Rafale working together. We already know that a single F-35 can track an emitter faster and with better precision than a flight of three F-16CJ (Wild Weasel) surrounding the emitter.

[4]


It’s also worth remembering that L402 is Russia’s first modern integrated EW suite, until Su-35 Russian Fighters largely relied on external Self-Protection jamming pods (Khibiny). Moreover, if Su-57’s EW suite was anywhere near ALR-94 or ASQ-239 (1° by 1° accuracy against airborne targets) then there would be no need for side-mounted N036B radars that expands the targeting envelope of off-boresight missiles from 180° to 240°. A powerful EW suite can provide comparable targeting capability at least in the short-range envelope of the side-mounted radars (they’re about 20% the size of front radar). Lack of further claims about L402’s performance so late into the program further points to the notion that it’s closer to the EW suites of high-end 4.5 gen. platforms than F-22 & F-35.

The Su-57 also lacks a LPI (tightly-focussed, frequency agile) datalink like MADL (F-35) or IFDL (F-22). This not only increases Su-57’s RF signature while using datalink along with being relatively more prone to jamming (smaller bandwidth) but also comes with significantly lower throughput compared to MADL with AESA apertures operating at K-band. For context, F-22’s APG-77 radar achieved transmission rates reaching 548 Mbit/sec

[5]
compared to Link 16 operating at UHF/L band having a throughout around 1 Mbit/sec. The Su-57’s omnidirectional datalink while certainly better will have throughput a lot closer to Link 16 than MADL or IFDL. It’s just the physical limitations of operating with omnidirectional low frequency bands. This means the F-22 and F-35 can not only use their datalink in a contested airspace but are also capable of sharing an order of magnitude larger volume of data, which dramatically increases Situational Awareness.


Almost every sensor on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than those on Su-57 and this is only further amplified with Sensor Fusion. There’s just so much more data in F-22 and especially F-35 – the F-35 generates almost 1 TB of sensory data per flight.

[6]
Just having more high-fidelity data to begin with puts F-22 & F-35’s Sensor Fusion far ahead and unlike others, their Fusion engine can ‘manage’ individual sensors, such as telling DAS to track a target that has moved beyond the radar’s FoV or cueing the radar to get ‘range’ data of a target being tracked by the EW suite. This is part of the reason why F-22 and F-35’s Sensor Fusion are on a league of their own. To quote a former Commander of RAF Typhoon squadron,



The Su-57 is Russia’s first aircraft with Sensor Fusion, its predecessor Su-35 that became operational 6 years before doesn’t have one and it does put things into perspective. The only thing in Su-57 which has any kind of advantage worth mentioning is 101KS-O Directed Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM aka Lasers). In theory this does provide Su-57 an advantage against modern IR missiles with Imaging IR seekers.

However, a lot of that advantage is negated by lack of a competent Missile Warning System (MWS). The Su-57 continue to rely on a UV-based MWS which are practically useless against BVR missiles since they’re limited to detecting missile launches in close visual-ranges at altitudes. And of course, the RCS spike from those DIRCM turrets acting as radar-reflectors only help radar-guided missiles.

---

Throughout the Cold War USSR/Russia have been 10 to 15 years behind the West in avionics and the gap has only increased after the end of Cold War. It’s an undisputed fact that F-22 and especially, F-35’s avionics suite is a whole generation ahead of Su-57. There’s day and night difference between the Situational Awareness of F-22/F-35 and Su-57. There really is no contest.

This doesn’t necessarily make Su-57 a bad aircraft. The program did introduce a lot of breakthroughs for the Russian aerospace industry. The Su-57 is not only among the very first Russian aircraft to have an operational AESA radar but also a Sensor Fusion, even if it might be in a league closer to those on modern 4.5th gen. than F-35. Likewise, Su-57 is also the first Russian aircraft to have a true integrated EW suite (without requiring external jamming pods) and with potential to carry decoys like Brite cloud – this would be a first for Russia since none of their Fighters are currently equipped with either a towed or expendable decoy; although this is unlikely to happen for another decade at the least.

In many ways the Su-57 bridges some of the gap with modern 4.5 gen. platforms (EF Typhoon, Rafale, F-18E, F-15EX, etc.) which contrary to Russian propaganda enjoy a significant advantage over Su-35 or Mig-29K when it comes to avionics suite. With stealth (low-RCS) no matter how mediocre, Su-57 can present a serious threat to Western 4th gen. platforms, something the Su-35 could never do. This is what I believe Su-57’s design actually tried to accomplish. The problem comes when you try to put it along the lines of F-22 and F-35, something it can’t really compete with outside airshows.

If Russian Airforce transitions to Su-57 fleet then it will force the US and in particular European countries to invest more heavily into procurement of LO platforms. Sadly for Russia this seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Footnotes

[1]

Air Force improves F-15C radar
[2]

Serious Squall - Aviation Today
[3]

Vanguard Magazine - The Joint Strike Fighter: Driven By Data
[4]

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
[5]

Radar Transmitting Data - Aviation Today
[6]

[7]

Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier - Second Line of Defense

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/...

Answer (1 of 9): F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and ...

www.quora.com

His posts are usually quite informative and useful, but if you read more of him you will notice he has some prejudice against Russian weapons and platforms.
anyway, in my opinion, his analysis and conclusions about various western and eastern areal platforms are mostly on the stop.

 

[Afif]

THIS POST HAS SOME INTERESTING TAKE ON F35S EW CAPABILITY.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Rafale-SPECTRA-vs-F35-AN-239-EW-suite-compare

How does the Rafale SPECTRA vs F35 AN-239 EW suite compare?

They don’t really compare well. While modern 4th gen. EW suites like Spectra use some of the advanced technologies such as phased array transmitters – there is a big difference in 4th gen. and 5th gen. EW suite design.

For starters, Spectra has 3 RWR antennas – two on the front hemisphere and one at the aft.

While the F-35’s ASQ-239 Barracuda has 10 RWR antennas – 6 on the front hemisphere and 4 at the rear.

This would give ASQ-239 greater bandwidth, especially in the lower bands from those bigger antennas on leading edge. We already know that Spectra doesn’t go bellow 2 GHz

[1]
. The ASQ-239 will have significantly better accuracy, be much more powerful and sensitive.


Where EW suites in modern 4th gen. can get 1° accuracy in azimuth (direction), the ASQ-239 and ALR-94 can get that accuracy in both azimuth and elevation. We know that a single F-35 has the ability to locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision than a flight of three F-16CJs (SEAD variant) working together.

[2]
The F-16CJ use ASQ-213 HTS that provide targeting solution to launch HARMS at enemy radars, which should have comparable accuracy as Spectra.


In other words, ASQ-239 on F-35 can generate Firing solution against an airborne emitter on its own (passively) with minimum assistance from the radar – something that would take at least 3 Rafale working together.

Jamming

Rafale’s Spectra use phased array transmitter for jamming and like any other internal EW suite is for Self-Protection. The ASQ-239 is deeply integrated with the APG-81 radar and primarily uses the radar for transmitting the jamming signal. The massive radar aperture provides significantly higher gain (directivity) which results in F-35 having 10 times more effective jamming power than dedicated EW platforms like Growlers.

[3]


The difference in jamming power between F-35 and an internal EW suite like Spectra is huge. For context, an internal jammer like Spectra will only have a few dozen watt output; Typhoon’s DASS for instance has 50 watt

[4]
while an ALQ-99 jamming pod on Growler has about 10 kW output
[5]
. The F-35’s ASQ-239 can provide escort-jamming to legacy aircraft as we’ve seen Norwegian pilots using their F-35 to provide stand-off jamming to F-16s in training. Rafale can’t do that without having external jamming pod.


Out Of The Shadows: RNLAF experiences with the F-35A - Combat Aircraft Magazine May 2018

Self-Protection EW suites like Spectra heavily rely on deception jamming like DRFM which are effective against most threats but are largely ineffective against modern AESA radars that require broadband jamming. The F-35’s massive power advantage from the radar allows it effectively jam AESA radars. We’ve seen F-35 demonstrating its ability to jam F-22 and F-15’s AESA radars in China Lake test.

[6]


The ASQ-239 do have its own internal transmitters as well as ALE-70 towed decoys

[7]
for spherical coverage and to cover bands outside the radar’s coverage. The Barracuda’s internal jammer should have similar output as Spectra but since jamming power required is directly proportional to one’s RCS – F-35 having orders of magnitude smaller RCS would result in much greater jamming effectiveness given same power.


Cyber Warfare

The F-35 can attack enemy networks and data links, jamming or inserting malicious algorithm into hostile networks.

[8]
The F-35 has significant cyber warfare capabilities as the former head of Air Combat Command, Gen. Hawk have stated that F-35’s EW capabilities being “an order of magnitude better than anything we’ve had in the past.”
[9]


EW suites like Spectra can’t jam networks or data links and are almost exclusive to jamming hostile radars.

---

The ASQ-239 like Raptor’s ALR-94 before is designed to form the primary means of Situational Awareness in the F-35 – to characterise and locate threats with precision to form a Targeting solution so as to significantly minimize radar transmission and maintain EMCON. Both ASQ-239 and ALR-94 are so powerful that they’ve greater range than the radar.

Spectra implements some aspect of 5th gen. design in that it’s more powerful than the previous RWRs but the radar remain the primary means of Situational Awareness in Rafale. The F-35’s design requirement of penetrating Integrated Air Defences with minimum external support required significant emphasis on EW capability – to a degree that USMC replaced their E-6B Prowler, a dedicated EW fleet with baseline F-35B. Despite some similarities there’s day and night difference between Spectra and Barracuda’s performance.

Footnotes

[1]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...d-spectra-fire-control-radar-avoidance-system
[2]

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
[3]

Membership Levels - Vanguard
[4]

Deep Dive on the DASS - Armada International
[5]

Electric Avenue - Armada International

 

[Ryder]

A very useful information from Abhirup Sengupta here.

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/APG-77 V1, or APG-81?

F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and are at least two generations ahead since the US had 20 years head-start in operational AESA radars on Fighters, with F-15C receiving APG-63v2 in early 2000.

[1]
You can see the disparity in technology in their antenna design. The Su-57’s radar has a slotted antenna, whereas APG-77 and APG-81 use notch antennas which are difficult to design but offer significantly greater bandwidth.

In other words, the APG-77 and APG-81 have much larger bandwidth and gain (directivity) which translates to the two having far superior LPI characteristics and jamming resistance (ECCMs) and of course, much better resolution. You can actually see things like lawn mower patterns and cracks on the runway in APG-81’s published SAR images. This resolution is what gives APG-77v1 and APG-81 Automatic ground Target Identification capability.

Whereas the Irbis-E on Felon’s predecessor, Su-35 has a SAR resolution comparable to F-15E’s 20 year old Mechanical radar (APG-70). In fact, even 15 year old RBE2 PESA radar on Rafale could track more targets (40 vs. 30)

[2]
despite being nearly half the size of Irbis-E. That is the state of Russia’s most advanced Fighter-radar after N036.


The APG-77v1 and APG-81’s large bandwidth also allows the F-22 and F-35 to use their radar for powerful broadband jamming. Their radar is the primary transmitter for the EW suite, providing 10 times effective radiated jamming power of dedicated EW platforms.

[3]
This is what allows F-22 and F-35 to provide escort-jamming support to legacy aircraft, whereas Su-57’s EW suite is purely for Self-Protection. The N036 radar is expected to have limited Electronic Attack capability but it’s highly unlikely that the current radar has any such capability. The Su-57 very likely needs a new antenna design to accommodate EA capability – similar to how EF Typhoon requires a brand new AESA radar (ECRS Mk 2) for EA operations. This is mainly because a jammer requires wider bandwidth in order to be viable, preferably requiring a notch antenna. Of course, a post-production upgraded radar can’t match the level of integration to one designed from the onset to be deeply integrated with the EW suite. Just like Typhoon’s ECRS Mk 2 and F-18E/F’s APG-79, future Su-57 radar’s EA capability will not be anywhere close to that of F-35 or F-22.


Likewise, the L402 is unlikely to have anywhere near the accuracy or sensitivity of either ALR-94 or ASQ-239. It will probably have 1° accuracy in azimuth but double-digits in elevation angle for airborne emitters, just like latest EW suites in modern 4.5 gen. platforms. The difference is that not only ALR-94 and ASQ-239 outrange most radars (early ALR-94 had a range exceeding 460 km) but can provide targeting solution against airborne emitters with little to no radar support – something that requires at least 3 Typhoon/Rafale working together. We already know that a single F-35 can track an emitter faster and with better precision than a flight of three F-16CJ (Wild Weasel) surrounding the emitter.

[4]


It’s also worth remembering that L402 is Russia’s first modern integrated EW suite, until Su-35 Russian Fighters largely relied on external Self-Protection jamming pods (Khibiny). Moreover, if Su-57’s EW suite was anywhere near ALR-94 or ASQ-239 (1° by 1° accuracy against airborne targets) then there would be no need for side-mounted N036B radars that expands the targeting envelope of off-boresight missiles from 180° to 240°. A powerful EW suite can provide comparable targeting capability at least in the short-range envelope of the side-mounted radars (they’re about 20% the size of front radar). Lack of further claims about L402’s performance so late into the program further points to the notion that it’s closer to the EW suites of high-end 4.5 gen. platforms than F-22 & F-35.

The Su-57 also lacks a LPI (tightly-focussed, frequency agile) datalink like MADL (F-35) or IFDL (F-22). This not only increases Su-57’s RF signature while using datalink along with being relatively more prone to jamming (smaller bandwidth) but also comes with significantly lower throughput compared to MADL with AESA apertures operating at K-band. For context, F-22’s APG-77 radar achieved transmission rates reaching 548 Mbit/sec

[5]
compared to Link 16 operating at UHF/L band having a throughout around 1 Mbit/sec. The Su-57’s omnidirectional datalink while certainly better will have throughput a lot closer to Link 16 than MADL or IFDL. It’s just the physical limitations of operating with omnidirectional low frequency bands. This means the F-22 and F-35 can not only use their datalink in a contested airspace but are also capable of sharing an order of magnitude larger volume of data, which dramatically increases Situational Awareness.


Almost every sensor on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than those on Su-57 and this is only further amplified with Sensor Fusion. There’s just so much more data in F-22 and especially F-35 – the F-35 generates almost 1 TB of sensory data per flight.

[6]
Just having more high-fidelity data to begin with puts F-22 & F-35’s Sensor Fusion far ahead and unlike others, their Fusion engine can ‘manage’ individual sensors, such as telling DAS to track a target that has moved beyond the radar’s FoV or cueing the radar to get ‘range’ data of a target being tracked by the EW suite. This is part of the reason why F-22 and F-35’s Sensor Fusion are on a league of their own. To quote a former Commander of RAF Typhoon squadron,



The Su-57 is Russia’s first aircraft with Sensor Fusion, its predecessor Su-35 that became operational 6 years before doesn’t have one and it does put things into perspective. The only thing in Su-57 which has any kind of advantage worth mentioning is 101KS-O Directed Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM aka Lasers). In theory this does provide Su-57 an advantage against modern IR missiles with Imaging IR seekers.

However, a lot of that advantage is negated by lack of a competent Missile Warning System (MWS). The Su-57 continue to rely on a UV-based MWS which are practically useless against BVR missiles since they’re limited to detecting missile launches in close visual-ranges at altitudes. And of course, the RCS spike from those DIRCM turrets acting as radar-reflectors only help radar-guided missiles.

---

Throughout the Cold War USSR/Russia have been 10 to 15 years behind the West in avionics and the gap has only increased after the end of Cold War. It’s an undisputed fact that F-22 and especially, F-35’s avionics suite is a whole generation ahead of Su-57. There’s day and night difference between the Situational Awareness of F-22/F-35 and Su-57. There really is no contest.

This doesn’t necessarily make Su-57 a bad aircraft. The program did introduce a lot of breakthroughs for the Russian aerospace industry. The Su-57 is not only among the very first Russian aircraft to have an operational AESA radar but also a Sensor Fusion, even if it might be in a league closer to those on modern 4.5th gen. than F-35. Likewise, Su-57 is also the first Russian aircraft to have a true integrated EW suite (without requiring external jamming pods) and with potential to carry decoys like Brite cloud – this would be a first for Russia since none of their Fighters are currently equipped with either a towed or expendable decoy; although this is unlikely to happen for another decade at the least.

In many ways the Su-57 bridges some of the gap with modern 4.5 gen. platforms (EF Typhoon, Rafale, F-18E, F-15EX, etc.) which contrary to Russian propaganda enjoy a significant advantage over Su-35 or Mig-29K when it comes to avionics suite. With stealth (low-RCS) no matter how mediocre, Su-57 can present a serious threat to Western 4th gen. platforms, something the Su-35 could never do. This is what I believe Su-57’s design actually tried to accomplish. The problem comes when you try to put it along the lines of F-22 and F-35, something it can’t really compete with outside airshows.

If Russian Airforce transitions to Su-57 fleet then it will force the US and in particular European countries to invest more heavily into procurement of LO platforms. Sadly for Russia this seems unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Footnotes

[1]

Air Force improves F-15C radar
[2]

Serious Squall - Aviation Today
[3]

Vanguard Magazine - The Joint Strike Fighter: Driven By Data
[4]

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
[5]

Radar Transmitting Data - Aviation Today
[6]

[7]

Shaping a New Combat Capability for 21st Century Operations: The Coming of the F-35B to the New British Carrier - Second Line of Defense

Does the F-35/F-22 have any advantages in avionics over that of the Su-57 besides the AN/AAQ-37? Whose radar is more powerful, Belka, AN/...

Answer (1 of 9): F-35’s DAS is only an extreme example where there’s absolutely no equivalent, even keeping that aside almost every avionics on F-22 and F-35 is vastly more capable than Su-57. Both APG-77v1 and APG-81 are bigger than Su-57’s N036 radar (~2,000 & 1,676 vs. 1,550 TRMs on N036) and ...

www.quora.com

Even in the Cold War the Soviet Union began to fall behind.

Their golden age was in the 1950 to the 1970s. Once they reached the 1980s the cracks began to appear well they appeared earlier.

Nowadays Russia is way behind.

 

[blackjack]

Why do I always see Russians bringing up their photonic radars that has never been fielded as an excuse of having mediocre RF technology... Besides the fact that the west is also decades ahead of them in photonics and have fielded various commercial applications of it?


By having way better individual sensors and sensor suites, sensor management and data fusion leaguse ahead of the Russians and far superior computing power?


Also, good luck after wasting all that money in Ukraine. Their new wepons program were already progressing at a slug's speed or not progressing at all and now things are even worse for them.

Alright what happened to my post here to Gary? How is that he is allowed to not just post one blog but double blog post here while I can't post my own blog that basically corrects everything he got wrong? I know you and him have moderation privileges along with some other moderators that dont seem to get along with me, so who deleted it? Usually, I would get a notification that it has been removed or the response is moved somewhere was it your guys doing? I must have really pissed off a moderator, super moderator or an admin if they didn't give a reason on the notification to delete that post but turn a blind eye on a certain user here.

Photonic radars are relevant if they had 4 radar companies (Vega, RTI, Zhuk and Niip) along with one EW company that spoke of fielding it and not only that but their chief designer

states it at 31:51. There is also a radar that works in 4 different including the millimeter range known as Yakhroma. Just to let you know being ahead in the MMIC field does not mean your ahead in the PIC field its like comparing apples to oranges. even if they did not field a photonic radar the aircraft is already undergoing an avionics upgrade package for 2022-2024 meaning even than the Su-57 radar would still surpass the F-35 because the F-35 AFAIK has not down any radar upgrades since. Either war photonic radars were tested back in 2014 as prototypes and they have started a PIC production in 2024. Same thing when they relied on France for infrared detection systems and now have made domestic products that already match the west.

wasting money on Ukraine, well that's nothing to what the west is spending, and it hasn't halted any of their projects. please don't delete this post either, just because I made the F-35 look like a POS here means it has to be deleted since its still relevant talking about the F-35.

In case no one saw my blog post to Gary that corrected him, but Gary can double blog post, here. https://defenceforumindia.com/threa...ncomplete-will-edit-and-add-info-later.83650/

76 of these are to be purchased and delivered to the Russian armed forces in which there are 10 testing and 7 that are serially produced. The aircraft has gone through modifications and upgrades in which we will have a lot to cover on this aircraft project than we do with others here so expect long texts on this aircraft.

The 1st stage engines are the AL-41F1S engines which have a reduced RCS and infrared signature than the engines used on the Su-35. They modified the Su-27 to have flat square nozzles like the F-22 but rejected it because of maneuverability performances since they found a way using aerosol on the engines which give it a 3 to 3 in half times infrared reduction according to reference 1 and chose serrated nozzles for reduced RCS, then again reference 4 suggests they will bring flat nozzles back that can alter their configurations whenever using afterburners. The 2nd stage engine offers super maneuverability, fuel efficiency to be increased 1.2 to 1.5 times, increased thrust to weight ratio, better stealth, also range is currently unknown while the 1st stage offered 3,500kms max range, also Russia is working on two new separate variable 3 stream cycle engine designs where one is based on high supersonic conditions and the other is just regular design. 25 of the 76 aircrafts in order will have the new engines and avionics. The air intakes are curved in the Su-57 and not straight according to reference 5. A full S-duct was not chosen you get larger frontal area, thus worse drag coefficient, and it kills aircraft top speed and acceleration. You are basically flying a brick at that point. In addition, because of all the gymnastics the air flow to the engine has to do with the S-duct, you get worse air flow to the engine, and even less performance. That and the fixed inlets are why certain aircrafts cannot super cruise and cannot reach Mach 2. The Su-57 uses a smoother partial S-duct, with less of a bend, it achieves some reduction of frontal engine profile, without killing performance too much, so it can go over Mach 2, and it can super cruise, even with the first stage engines. The engines also have a radar blocker in the intake to reduce RCS. Finally, it can apply the engine mesh screens to further reduce radar profile of the engine in case you need to, at cost of speed, and the second stage engine will have composite fan blades, and treatments to reduce RCS of the engine in the frontal aspect even without the mesh screens being engaged or without having S-ducts all in accordance to reference 7 and fan blades are made of composite along with RAM coating. Uses internal weapons bays for stealth and the canopy glass uses material that reduce the RCS of the aircraft.

The next portion in this paragraph will be about all the sensors in the aircraft. The 101KS-V is an IRST with 180-degree near infrared coverage which is the bulb in front of the aircraft and when not in use gets turned back where the backside of the sensor is covered with RAM. 101KS-U/01/02 works in the UV band while the 101KS-O work in the infrared range but currently classified if working in short or medium infrared detection and utilizes DIRCM against incoming air to air missiles. The sensors are placed above and below the aircraft. 101KS-P uses infrared camera stored under the wings to help map terrain working with the radar got low altitude flights. 101KS-N is an advanced navigation and targeting system/pod on the aircraft. UV-50-01 is a chaff and flare dispenser for the aircraft it has 9 cartridges of these in the aircraft having 14 each for a total of 126 to be used depending on the situation. Sh-111 communication systems will be replaced on the aircraft in the modernization upgrade. Byelka radar has been updated with 6 radar systems instead of 5 this was officially confirmed on reference 10 for NIIPs website and even a KRET official confirmed that there is active radar detection from the back. The Byelka radar has 1,514 X-band modules on the nose and two on the sides with 404 X-band modules totaling it to 2,322 X-band modules, then there are two additional L-band radars on the wings and the number of modules for each is unknown to me. However, they announced radar antennas have been added in the back on the NIIPs website and what frequency those modules are is unknown to me. Reference 17 states they added new T/R modules in 2014 Rostec book that were GaN UHF modules for the Himalayas drone, then states Su-34, Su-35 and Krasukha-4 were to receive these, and these three aircrafts were modified in 2016, 2017, and 2018 receiving new airborne EW versions. 2019 announcement from Niip stating there would be not enough time for GaN production line for the radars to be replaced, however the modernization of the upgraded avionics began in 2022-2024. From 2014 to as late as 2022 from reference 10 ROFAR is highly anticipated for the Su-57 and the full production for photonic integrated circuits is to start in 2024. Vega.su website is down, KRET website is down, aorti.ru got rid of all their magazines on the special projects sections which all gave some characteristics about photonic radars, fpi.gov.ru where they showcased the photonic radars antenna is also down, but I already have the image saved. All and all based on maneuverability, stealth, 360 degree coverage based on a very wide electromagnetic spectrum, and many countermeasures it will be extremely difficult to hit the aircraft with a missile. Because of stealth and approaching another stealth aircraft the distance closes until either will be seen on radar and the closer you are the little more important maneuverability will become. Based on all the radar modules around its body and additional antennas placed in the back with the Himalayas EW system it's going to jam the living hell out of the adversary aircraft and utilize DIRCM to be used against infrared homing air to air missiles, then chaffs and flares are used to misguide the incoming air to air missiles if DIRCM or its entire jamming capabilities didn't work out. combining 360-degree active X-band, passive, infrared and UV coverage with sensor fusion into MIRES will offer insane precision of what course of action to take (heavy jamming, DIRCM, flares and chaffs, change directions) and photonic radars will go into the 100ghz band offering even more insane precision in tracking incoming targets and the photonic radar antennas are as thin as paper that can be placed anywhere in the aircraft which might even host the idea of miniature missiles for self-protection like some of their bombers I will discuss here later. According to reference 27 and 28 for project Megapolis pilots can control the aircraft using their eyes and they will have fiberoptic and acoustic sensors to monitor the material or engine's service life or if maintenance is required.

Alright next we will talk about weapons and the good news about talking about them right now is that I can save myself the time from having to discuss them again for other drone/fighter/stealth aircrafts until we get to the heavy bomber section. The Su-57 can carry two hypersonic air to ground missiles internally and the name of the new missile being developed is called the Gremlin no information is disclosed if it's a solid fuel or airbreathing missile. For reference 34, 35, and 36 I have made a decision that the amount of internal missiles it carried before would be increased to store more because of new missiles offering folding wings and the patents of the design. At best based on the configurations of I have seen in those 3 references, 8 K-77Ms possible, with 2 short range missiles inside the wing bay roots for 10 air to air missiles with a stealth profile(there are comedians in the forum pushing for 12 like cat matroskin), 8 air to air internal missiles if the configuration for 3 max in each bay, or worst case scenario the new missiles they are designing stayed the same in size just making it carry 2 in each bay amounting to 6. But there is something that caught my interest and that is when Paralay in his own created forum stated that 8 UAVs with a length of 1.5 meters can fit into one compartment, considering that I looked at the CUDA length and considering that the Su-57 is to receive new missiles for the 2022-2024 Megapolis project upgrade it is possible for the best case scenario that 18 missiles with all internal compartments can be possible to fit in the Su-57. R-77s were used before to shoot down other missiles but if the new air to air missiles arrive for this purpose than pretty much this can serve as a hard kill APS which would work beautifully for a 360-degree active passive radar(wide band), infrared and UV sensor fused data being processed to tracking incoming missiles or aircrafts. I would probably put this aircraft in the 6th gen realm.

1. 18 air to air missiles if they go for a CUDA kind of design to match their 1.5 meter length therefore have options to use it as a hard kill APS because of all the sensors that offer the aircraft 360 degree coverage in a very wide band where data is fused offering targeting that offers insane precision in which with the current order of 76 it is possible to shoot down 1,368 aerial targets. It is possible to achieve 1.5 meter missiles if they are testing quadpack pantsir missiles that are 1 meter in length.

2. Photonic radars which I heard are impossible to suppress by jamming to lower their performance because of a 200-decibel limit because of the crystals that there is nothing on earth that has the energy to produce a 200 decibel power from reference 37. Also most air-to-air missiles using active homing heads that work bands higher than X-band meaning that photonic integrated circuits in the aircraft have the frequency to jam them. This means that this would be the most protected aircraft because it could use missiles for self defense, DIRCM to blind infrared seekers and PICs to jam the host active radars in air to air missiles and use chaffs and flares to further deceive radar/infrared homing heads on missiles.

3. upgrading it with the variable 3 stream cycle engine.

K-77M has a max 193km range, while the Ramjet version will have a longer range than this. K-74M2 is a short range missile with 40km range and K-37M being their long-range version will have a 400km range which 4 would fit internally and as far as I know there is no ramjet version, or we can be surprised if they reveal the new weapons they had planned for the Su-57 upgrade. ROFAR radar according to KRET states it can see a person from 500kms away identifying their face so if the missiles are not long enough there are sources that state the S-500 have 600km range SAM missiles since they can share data in case adversary aircrafts are below the radar horizon. 4 kh-59MK2s can fit in the Su-57 in which these missiles have a 500km range, fly at mach 0.8, delivers a payload of 320kg with a 3-meter CEP for accuracy flying at altitudes of either 11kms or 50 meters. The Grom-E1 is a glide bomb with a 120km range with a 315kg warhead and can be launched from 500 meters to 11kms and the Grom-E2 has a 50km range but has two warheads where one is 315kg and the other is 165kg with a total of 480kg payload and 4 of these can fit inside. The Kh-38 has a 300km range flies at 10-15 meters above ground and when in terminal flies 4 meters above ground, has a 50km range seeker, 320kg warhead, flies at mach 1 and two of these can fit in Su-57. Kh-58 are antiradiation missiles where 4 can fit in Su-57, mach 3.6 speeds and 250km ranges and warheads weight 149kg. The drill bomb is a 500kg bomb that uses infrared and radar targeting releasing 15 self-aiming warheads are than used at a column of tanks or missile batteries, how much carried is unknown. Just like the air to air to missiles I will wait and see what the configurations will be for air to ground missiles or bombs for the Su-57. But when compared to other aircrafts Su-57 has very heavy payloads like its task was meant to get the job done.

The aircraft will come in 3 versions which is single seat, double seat and a UAV version. Comes in a 3000km max range and the UAV version would have more space estimating an increase from 6000 liters to 7000 liters thus more range. Costs are estimated between 25 million to 30 million dollars for a 5th gen aircraft. Radar is a smaller N036 version that tracks 30 targets and engages 6 while Schwabe Russia's infrared sensor company signed a contract to give new EO sensors to the aircraft, keep in mind that this aircraft is open architecture for avionics. So, radar provides 120-degree coverage, 360-degree passive radar and EO infrared detection with 180-degree infrared IRST system. Cost wise in-flight hours it claims to be several times cheaper when compared to other aircrafts and maintenance wise it will like the Su-57 have fiber optic cables spread throughout its body to monitor and wear and tear and Russia has additive composite with planned electrical conductivity, plastic deformation threshold ,resistance to oxidation and high thermal tolerance, literally perfect for a very low effective area of dispersion airframe with dozen of times less susceptibility to wear and tear in comparison with existing solutions could in live test prove to be inefficient by something so trivial such as buffeting vibrations causing joint points to progressively deformate. Based on the aircrafts features I don't see any horizontal stabilizers thus reducing RCS in the process, so assumption is made that the TVC technology is advanced enough that they decided they don't need stabilizers, thus reducing drag. If they have the 3D nozzle, it would be good for some maneuvers (yaw control). If not, it is not the end of the world. The plane is already controllable in stall events with the 2D TVC. Current order is unknown but they are expecting 300 for customers, flight date was pushed back to 2025, no idea on the production date.

From the design I see one large internal ventral bay in the center of the aircraft with two additional internal weapons bays on the side of the wings. Placement of 3 medium range air to air missiles with 2 small range air to air missiles seem feasible for its design. And as some footage show 2 large air to ground missiles or bombs can fit in the internal weapons bay storage or any small size bombs or air to ground missiles on the other two sides by the wing roots since the size of those are currently unknown. Same weapons as the Su-57 can be used but possibly with a reduced number because of weapon bay size.

So what makes the F-35 stand out? if this gets deleted without a reason but someone here can double blog post of speaking about the Su-57 than no one can give any reason that the F-35 is better.

 

[Gary]

the APG-81 is already a world beater, now they come up with an even better one

F-35 Will Get New Radar Under Massive Upgrade Initiative​

The new AN/APG-85 advanced active electronically scanned array radar will be compatible with all variants of the new Block 4 F-35s.
BYEMMA HELFRICH|PUBLISHED JAN 3, 2023 4:55 PM
THE WAR ZONE

USAF
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After a mysterious radar designation emerged online in news stories about the F-35 Lightning II program, the internet quickly began debating whether it was a typo or a new capability altogether. Now, The War Zone has official confirmation that the fifth-generation stealth fighter will, in fact, be getting a new radar designated as the AN/APG-85.

One of the first mentions of the AN/APG-85 appeared in a Defense News article published in April of last year. Reporter Stephen Losey noted that $921 million had been added to the U.S. Air Force’s wishlist for Fiscal Year 2023 (FY2023) to procure seven more “Block 4 F-35As with the APG-85 radar from Lot 17.” Then, in a separate article authored last December, Losey wrote of the radar again in the same context. The references were later highlighted and questioned by the @MIL_STD Twitter account.

F-35 Will Get New Radar Under Massive Upgrade Initiative (Updated)

The new AN/APG-85 advanced active electronically scanned array radar will be compatible with all variants of the new Block 4 F-35s.

www.thedrive.com