TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

Kartal1

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France simply isn't capable of being the leader of a European confederacy whether economically or militarily unified. Even Germany isn't really the de-facto leader of the EU, they are basically a proxy for the US. I could see a UK that got its shit together being able to efficiently lead Europe but they don't really care enough plus I've noticed a curious trend among British people in that they don't really identify themselves as "European". There's almost an air of superiority present where they perceive themselves as better than and separate from the rest of the European nations. If you pay close enough attention you can even detect it among British far-right/white nationalist movements where they occasionally let the mask slip.
One of my favorite Bulgarian proverbs says "Неволята учи". This literally means "The trouble teaches". When you are facing troubles, you find a way to deal with these troubles.
 

Tabmachine

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The problem here is that Turkiye is more of a wildcard for NATO than a country which can lead NATO's efforts. An increased cooperation in the Black Sea and the Balkans (Kosovo, Bosnia) is to be expected, but what about Caucasus, Africa and the Middle East?

Turkiye and the other members in NATO have totally different goals there and they don't like the fact that Turkiye starts to exercise more pro-active policies towards these regions by directly going into a clash with the interests of countries like France which is one of the few EU countries that actually is both militarily capable, active and also has this pro-active approach towards their objectives despite the recent fails which are partly due to Turkiye's role in their areas of influence.

Turkiye entered a revisionist mode which will guarantee the State's right to have a stronger card in the decision making mechanisms in the West and guarantee that Turkiye's national interests and national security concerns are actually considered before making a move. We saw what happened in Libya and how Turkiye and France actively supported different sides of the conflict. We saw what happened with the whole Operation Irini fiasco and the event where a Turkish warship actually illuminated a French warship with its radar. We also saw the German role in the operations there. We also know that Turkiye had a major role in what happened in other African countries where France had interests. Karabakh was another major event with smaller secondary events including the role of the Azerbaijani intelligence in popular unrest or separatism activities in places like New Caledonia, Corsica, Martinique, French Guiana and French Polynesia. When it comes to the Middle East as the events are more recent we see what is Turkiye's position on the Israel-Palestine issue, the fact that Turkiye doesn't participate in the Operation Prosperity Guardian where France and even Greece actually participate (France prefers to put its ships under national command) is evident. There is not even a passive support for the defensive part of the operation despite Turkish business also being targeted. And lastly Syria is a hot topic even in this hour and minute. France is supporting Turkiye's grave enemy by directly involving its forces on the ground on the pre-text that they are fighting DEASH.

Many of the issues listed above were lying in a deep status quo, but by the looks not anymore.

The US is a major factor in establishing the link between the other NATO countries and Turkiye and due to the US's increased balancing role in all these events we managed to turn back from great dangers. As I listen to recent US rhetoric especially when it comes to areas of contact with Russia and the Middle East (Turkiye's areas of interest) we see that they basically say "Guys, you are already big enough to look after yourselves, papa will support you every time you need it , but you should already take more responsibility regarding your life and the decisions you take".

If we accept that NATO is a family then we should know that the US is like a dad in a patriarchal family, Europe is an entity consisted of good aunts, bad aunts, spoiled children and a big sister in her 30s looking like a grandma, both psychically and physically in a bad shape. Turkiye is like a step-child in this family.

Whatever the US did was to prepare its children for the challenges in life, but also intervene in the interest of the spoiled children and when dad says "You are big enough to run the show" both sides gain a level of independence including the responsibility it comes with, but the difference is that the spoiled children will always come first. When dad abdicates from part of his responsibilities, there is a power vacuum to be filled and this is where the sons start fighting. Of course the family always comes together on Christmas or in the face of important events including the Muslim step child, but everybody in the family knows that actually no one cares about the Muslim step child out of a couple irrelevant aunts and uncles when it comes to this whole process. When the children were small and fought only one word coming out of the mouth of dad was enough to bring an end to the fight and he imposed his position on both regardless of their opinion, ensuring the peace for a day according to his taste, but what about now when both of the sides are grown ups and they are supposed to be more independent... not to forget that dad's decisions usually are in a quality of temporary containing measures so the children can basically shut up, but the problems are still there.

I think currently we are in this transitional process where the US ensures everyone can stand on its own feet while being sure that the spoiled children have the advantage in "life". While the spoiled children get more pocket money, Turkiye is forced to work overtime for everything it gets and what it doesn't get Turkiye manages to either make its own or buy it from the "neighbour" everyone in the family actually hates. In fact everyone in the family has a touching point with this "neighbour" despite the conflict for land that unites the family, but when it comes to Turkiye everybody is mad and when SHTF, no one does nothing except for talking because Turkiye is simply a step-child and can never be a real part of this family.

Turkiye despite being the step-child of this family should grow strong and independent, keep the relations with the aunts and uncles in the family that supported Turkiye in hard times.

What is next... We will soon come to a moment where these partly independent children will start digging into these temporarily frozen conflicts once dad stops supervising them and while the side of the spoiled children and the step-child start fighting the only one smiling in this whole situation will be this one bad "neighbour". Very hard times are ahead of Turkiye, because while we fight for our rights we should also look for ways to contain this neighbour.

A logical solution would be for the spoiled part of Europe and the US to recognize the rights of Turkiye to coexist with them on the same level, because Turkiye earned this right, as Turkiye served NATO in the best ways possible whenever and wherever NATO needed Turkiye. The US and Europe's spoiled part should stop looking at Turkiye as a servant and instead start looking at Turkiye as a partner and an equal. If not, then the family of NATO is destined for a decline.

The US should act fast because Erdogan is currently watching "Cinderella", gets more inspired by the day and while the story may not end with a beautiful marriage, this rising "Cinderella" with a population of 85+ million people, a growing independent defence industry, diplomatic and military power can be a very serious pain in the butt if forced. This will not be a positive scenario for no one and the damage that can be done to this whole family is a doom scenario for the whole neighbourhood. My hopes are not high tho...

The thing is assuming and maintain an assertive stance, in such a contentious environment, would not only require sophisticated political institutions and military capabilities, but also economic strength.

At the moment, does Turkiye have the requisite energy independence, industrial base, loyal/neutral trade partners (with secure logistical connections) , etc. to be able to withstand the economic pressures that come along with such a state of competition?
 

Kartal1

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The thing is assuming and maintain an assertive stance, in such a contentious environment, would not only require sophisticated political institutions and military capabilities, but also economic strength.

At the moment, does Turkiye have the requisite energy independence, industrial base, trade partners (with secure logistical connections) , etc. to be able to withstand the economic pressures that come along with such a state of competition?
This is the reason why I defend cooperation with countries like Qatar and don't condemn our role in the Middle East. With these relations come hardships, but we also get a lot of positives trough them. This is also why I don't support rapid escalations with countries in the EU, our most important economic partner.

I also defend a more moderate approach when it comes to the US presence in the Middle East. There are guys that defend the unconditional and urgent US departure from the Middle East. For Turkiye this means crumbling under the weight of Russia and their partners like Iran because as hard as it sounds we are not ready to face these challenges not economically, militarily or even on the diplomatic side of things. The US if not directly supporting Turkiye then it is at least an actor that keeps our regional competitors busy while we do our thing.

A lot of people think of the unconventional threats in the region as the old school guys in sandals and AKs, not realizing that unconventional warfare as everything regarding military actions is evolving. Yesterday we were talking about MANPADs and ATGMS and today we are talking about loitering munitions and ballistic missiles with thousands kilometers of range and capable warheads enough to destroy a whole block of buildings. These are evolving threats which we should adapt to and we need time in order to be able to face these threats.

What I support is keeping the balance of allowing threats and limited intervention in order to keep these forces busy while Turkiye improve and build upon a stable base.

The events I listed in my long post will take time to come to reality and we should make sure that we are prepared as much as we can before they become reality. This means using our tools to control the gradual withdrawal of the US, filling all of the power vacuum they let in our backyard. The ride will not be smooth, but there is no other way as we are facing expansionist and revisionist forces just as hungry as us both in the face of Iran, Russia, but also countries like France that are trying to impose domination wherever we have rivalry, pursuing solely their interests, aiming at holding Turkiye a hostage or slave.

In short, we need time. The period till 2028 will be especially hard and if we manage to keep the situation manageable in Syria and Iraq I think we may have a chance to catch up with the intensity, develop the leverage tools and capabilities which will allow us more freedom and adaptability in regards to our decisions for the 2030+ period.
 

Afif

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The problem here is that Turkiye is more of a wildcard for NATO than a country which can lead NATO's efforts. An increased cooperation in the Black Sea and the Balkans (Kosovo, Bosnia) is to be expected, but what about Caucasus, Africa and the Middle East?

Turkiye and the other members in NATO have totally different goals there and they don't like the fact that Turkiye starts to exercise more pro-active policies towards these regions by directly going into a clash with the interests of countries like France which is one of the few EU countries that actually is both militarily capable, active and also has this pro-active approach towards their objectives despite the recent fails which are partly due to Turkiye's role in their areas of influence.

Turkiye entered a revisionist mode which will guarantee the State's right to have a stronger card in the decision making mechanisms in the West and guarantee that Turkiye's national interests and national security concerns are actually considered before making a move. We saw what happened in Libya and how Turkiye and France actively supported different sides of the conflict. We saw what happened with the whole Operation Irini fiasco and the event where a Turkish warship actually illuminated a French warship with its radar. We also saw the German role in the operations there. We also know that Turkiye had a major role in what happened in other African countries where France had interests. Karabakh was another major event with smaller secondary events including the role of the Azerbaijani intelligence in popular unrest or separatism activities in places like New Caledonia, Corsica, Martinique, French Guiana and French Polynesia. When it comes to the Middle East as the events are more recent we see what is Turkiye's position on the Israel-Palestine issue, the fact that Turkiye doesn't participate in the Operation Prosperity Guardian where France and even Greece actually participate (France prefers to put its ships under national command) is evident. There is not even a passive support for the defensive part of the operation despite Turkish business also being targeted. And lastly Syria is a hot topic even in this hour and minute. France is supporting Turkiye's grave enemy by directly involving its forces on the ground on the pre-text that they are fighting DEASH.

Many of the issues listed above were lying in a deep status quo, but by the looks not anymore.

The US is a major factor in establishing the link between the other NATO countries and Turkiye and due to the US's increased balancing role in all these events we managed to turn back from great dangers. As I listen to recent US rhetoric especially when it comes to areas of contact with Russia and the Middle East (Turkiye's areas of interest) we see that they basically say "Guys, you are already big enough to look after yourselves, papa will support you every time you need it , but you should already take more responsibility regarding your life and the decisions you take".

If we accept that NATO is a family then we should know that the US is like a dad in a patriarchal family, Europe is an entity consisted of good aunts, bad aunts, spoiled children and a big sister in her 30s looking like a grandma, both psychically and physically in a bad shape. Turkiye is like a step-child in this family.

Whatever the US did was to prepare its children for the challenges in life, but also intervene in the interest of the spoiled children and when dad says "You are big enough to run the show" both sides gain a level of independence including the responsibility it comes with, but the difference is that the spoiled children will always come first. When dad abdicates from part of his responsibilities, there is a power vacuum to be filled and this is where the sons start fighting. Of course the family always comes together on Christmas or in the face of important events including the Muslim step child, but everybody in the family knows that actually no one cares about the Muslim step child out of a couple irrelevant aunts and uncles when it comes to this whole process. When the children were small and fought only one word coming out of the mouth of dad was enough to bring an end to the fight and he imposed his position on both regardless of their opinion, ensuring the peace for a day according to his taste, but what about now when both of the sides are grown ups and they are supposed to be more independent... not to forget that dad's decisions usually are in a quality of temporary containing measures so the children can basically shut up, but the problems are still there.

I think currently we are in this transitional process where the US ensures everyone can stand on its own feet while being sure that the spoiled children have the advantage in "life". While the spoiled children get more pocket money, Turkiye is forced to work overtime for everything it gets and what it doesn't get Turkiye manages to either make its own or buy it from the "neighbour" everyone in the family actually hates. In fact everyone in the family has a touching point with this "neighbour" despite the conflict for land that unites the family, but when it comes to Turkiye everybody is mad and when SHTF, no one does nothing except for talking because Turkiye is simply a step-child and can never be a real part of this family.

Turkiye despite being the step-child of this family should grow strong and independent, keep the relations with the aunts and uncles in the family that supported Turkiye in hard times.

What is next... We will soon come to a moment where these partly independent children will start digging into these temporarily frozen conflicts once dad stops supervising them and while the side of the spoiled children and the step-child start fighting the only one smiling in this whole situation will be this one bad "neighbour". Very hard times are ahead of Turkiye, because while we fight for our rights we should also look for ways to contain this neighbour.

A logical solution would be for the spoiled part of Europe and the US to recognize the rights of Turkiye to coexist with them on the same level, because Turkiye earned this right, as Turkiye served NATO in the best ways possible whenever and wherever NATO needed Turkiye. The US and Europe's spoiled part should stop looking at Turkiye as a servant and instead start looking at Turkiye as a partner and an equal. If not, then the family of NATO is destined for a decline.

The US should act fast because Erdogan is currently watching "Cinderella", gets more inspired by the day and while the story may not end with a beautiful marriage, this rising "Cinderella" with a population of 85+ million people, a growing independent defence industry, diplomatic and military power can be a very serious pain in the butt if forced. This will not be a positive scenario for no one and the damage that can be done to this whole family is a doom scenario for the whole neighbourhood. My hopes are not high tho...

That's it. There needs to be a 'NATO friend & family strategic therapy directorate.' with director general @Kartal1 at the helm.
 

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