Greece to extend territorial waters in Ionian Sea to 12 miles, says PM

Nilgiri

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As customary, the idea of the median line is that when distances are smaller than the legal maximum sovereign, the area is split in the middle. That is a given. The areas you describe feature distances smaller than 12nm in most cases. This means that nothing would change in practice, if Turkey and/or Greece moved territorial sovereignty to 12nm. ;)

Well met. Welcome my friend.

Yeah I think the significance of the 12nm lies not with the islands close to Turkish coast etc (given the median rule by narrowness)....but the further interior aegean islands/rocks where 12nm would be applied from each one of them, effectively presenting a full Greek territorial water "wall" to Turkish existing connection between mediterranean and black sea/bosphorus.

Of course UNCLOS treaty Greece is party to means it would allow peaceable passage of Turkish civilian and military ships within its territorial waters (as it does right now I would assume with the 6nm claim). But I dont think it will rest nicely or well with the Turks doing that move given the scope is reduced from current scenario given what "innocent passage" in territorial waters entails to qualify:

 

Dante80

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But I dont think it will rest nicely or well with the Turks

Given the fact that there is a Turkish casus belli measure in force (Grand National Assembly - 8 June 1995) for this exact reason, I think that "not resting nicely" would be considered an understatement...;)
 

Nilgiri

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Given the fact that there is a Turkish casus belli measure in force (Grand National Assembly - 8 June 1995) for this exact reason, I think that "not resting nicely" would be considered an understatement...;)

I like to understate things....safer than overstating hehe. You can always build on top of an understatement...compared to subtract-fix an overstatement.
 

Combat-Master

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3Nm - 75% Open Waters
6nm - 49% Open Waters
12nm - 20% Open Waters
fc9ad4ec-65b4-462a-b886-bec65e4a7c65.png

Credit; Ulusal Kanal
 

Captain_Azeri_76

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They made a deal with the Italy but i dont know the currect status quo with the Albania.


I do not think that we can hope for a VETO of Albania – since there is a rather strong Greek/Christian diaspora in Albania and Macedonia, unlike in the KOSOVO, and because of the desire to join the EU, in any case, everything is accepted to make it possible to join...

Just remember the Turkish reforms at the beginning of the 2000s -

This is geopolitics at the lowest level...
 

Blackeyes90

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I do not think that we can hope for a VETO of Albania – since there is a rather strong Greek/Christian diaspora in Albania and Macedonia, unlike in the KOSOVO, and because of the desire to join the EU, in any case, everything is accepted to make it possible to join...

Just remember the Turkish reforms at the beginning of the 2000s -

This is geopolitics at the lowest level...
I dont take greek media seriously. Neither should you bro.
 

Captain_Azeri_76

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I dont take greek media seriously. Neither should you bro.

I think the opinions in Albania are quite divided - either the pro-EU faction will prevail, or the Albanian Turks...
In 2009 an agreement was already overturned by the supreme court, so we can only hope that Albania will stand firm and not let itself be put under too much pressure - just because of the EU accession that has been offered to them for years - just to make the country dependent and put pressure on them, as Turkey experienced at that time...
 

Blackeyes90

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France and Germany want to move troops to the Mediterranean area, at the same time Maas assured Greece full support - yes, we have a greek problem, which probably cannot be solved diplomatically. But a military conflict is exactly what almost the entire EU wants - they want war with Turkey! We should not give them what they want, we must put Greece in a situation where they are on their own...
Thats not true. Germans are trying to defuse the situation. You are right about France. But nobody will fight with Greeks against Turkey if there is a war that i can promise you.
 

Captain_Azeri_76

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Thats not true. Germans are trying to defuse the situation. You are right about France. But nobody will fight with Greeks against Turkey if there is a war that i can promise you.


Gardas - I did not claim that Germany acts in the same way as France - but the fact is that Germany/Maas has openly shown solidarity and expressed support for Greece in that conflict and it is also a fact that the European navies are gathering in the Mediterranean sea. In the event of a military conflict, I don't know whether Italy and Germany, who have already had navies in the Mediterranean, would remain neutral, don't you think?
That is a question to be asked. Apparently Italy has no problem with the 12 NM... all speculation on my part, but all of this is suspect to me. You have to keep in mind that Germany, in particular, would have the opportunity to put France and Greece in their place in order to conduct honest negotiations...


"Greek MP Dora Bakoyannis: 'In the agreement with Egypt, all Rhodes was not included, Kastelorizo (Meis) was excluded. It would be wrong to move forward by leaving only Meis symbolic. After the agreement with Italy, the 12-mile decision is a mandatory and safe. is my step"


On the other hand, Germany would have to take a clear stance on this undertaking as an "honest mediator" and a "neutral conciliator", right?
If I'm wrong and Germany really wants to get across, how can Germany accept that Greece continues to pour gasoline into the fire?
 
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Xenon54

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Given the fact that there is a Turkish casus belli measure in force (Grand National Assembly - 8 June 1995) for this exact reason, I think that "not resting nicely" would be considered an understatement...;)
Didnt even knew Turkey was that serious about it.

I often think how it would be if Aegean and Cyprus issues were solved one day, there is so much potential in the area even if its just about tourism.
But a reunification of North and South Korea is probably more likely than that. 😂
 

Captain_Azeri_76

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Sounds like political lip service. However, this kind of beligerent attitute doesn't serve for de escalation.
The question is:

Are Germany's efforts to de-escalate the situation sincerely and honestly?
We have to ask ourselves, who would benefit most from an escalation between Greece and Turkey? In the first place - intra-European - France and Germany (arms trade) also the Europeans have been ogling the Turkish mainland since the crusades - it is one of the strategically most important areas of the whole world...
My opinion is very clear:
We should not ask for an IF, but for a WHEN.
Even if Turkey should come to an agreement with Greece, which I hope for both sides, sooner or later there will be new heads of government who will provoke a new front as long as the goal is not achieved.
The legal situation is clear -
We are right in the mediterranean sea - if a legal agreement is reached, we will most likely be right in front of a court, the Europeans know that -
But then there will be other points.
The further arming of islands, the 12 NM in 'ADADENIZ' - Cyprus, etc.
We will find no rest -
 

Captain_Azeri_76

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I think the opinions in Albania are quite divided - either the pro-EU faction will prevail, or the Albanian Turks...
In 2009 an agreement was already overturned by the supreme court, so we can only hope that Albania will stand firm and not let itself be put under too much pressure - just because of the EU accession that has been offered to them for years - just to make the country dependent and put pressure on them, as Turkey experienced at that time...



Albania:
Greece has the right to expand its territorial waters from 6 to 12 miles.

Sputnik
 
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Captain_Azeri_76

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The question is:

Are Germany's efforts to de-escalate the situation sincerely and honestly?
We have to ask ourselves, who would benefit most from an escalation between Greece and Turkey? In the first place - intra-European - France and Germany (arms trade) also the Europeans have been ogling the Turkish mainland since the crusades - it is one of the strategically most important areas of the whole world...
My opinion is very clear:
We should not ask for an IF, but for a WHEN.
Even if Turkey should come to an agreement with Greece, which I hope for both sides, sooner or later there will be new heads of government who will provoke a new front as long as the goal is not achieved.
The legal situation is clear -
We are right in the mediterranean sea - if a legal agreement is reached, we will most likely be right in front of a court, the Europeans know that -
But then there will be other points.
The further arming of islands, the 12 NM in 'ADADENIZ' - Cyprus, etc.
We will find no rest -

Just wanted to leave it here for a moment - a bit paranoid, I'm usually wrong
 

Saithan

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then Italian-Greeco war :p




Most of the border dispute cases in ICJ relate to maritime boundary disputes and alot of precedents take form from these disputes which are then implemented on land border. The Aegean Dispute is an old dispute and if we actually look into it historically, nations home to the region have always fought for supremacy of the sea just like they did with the Mediterranean now the problems with the Aegean dispute are that it is related to delimitation of the national air spaces, territorial zones, exclusive economic zones, flight information regions, demilitarization of islands and ofcourse the turkish claims of the grey space.

The first thing we must ask is whether the UN Convention of Law of Sea, Is it a customary law? because turkey has not agreed to the convention whereas greece has so here we have another example of the limitation of the Law since International Law does not take a superior place due to absence of sovereign and the principle of equal standing and here we have one nation that has signed the convention and we have another that has no signed the convention.

Is Law of Sea applicable on parties that have not signed the agreement? Is Turkey bound by that law which it has not signed when Article 18 very clearly states that no treaty is binding or creates obligations on a third party?

Jurists of International standing have come to a thinking that when Law of Sea is discussed, it has ceased to function as 'Just a Treaty' and is now considered as Customary law on the basis of Opinio Juris and that with so many nations of the world following the law of sea, thus it has a form of customary nature which Article 38 states is obligatory upon states that arent party to it. We see ICJ judgments where the courts treated UNCLOS as a customary law.

Turkey has done one very right thing and that is that it has opposed such actions repeatedly thus concepts of implied recognition and Acquiescence cant be applied here and it has done it right but the problem would rise if UNCLOS is seen as customary law then it will find itself applicable on turkey as well.

Now in one of the first cases the international court was forced to decide the law of international strait and whether the coastal nation had any right on it. Corfu Channel case, where the United Kingdom had asserted its right of passage through international straits by sending a naval force through the Corfu Channel without complying with Albanian regulations requiring prior authorization. Albania claimed that its sovereignty had been violated by the passage, arguing that the Corfu Channel was not an international strait since it was used almost exclusively for local traffic and was only an alternative route between the Adriatic and the Aegean Seas. The Court rejected this argument and held that
“the decisive criterion is rather its geographical situation as connecting two parts of the high seas and the fact of its being used for international navigation”.
The Court established that, as a matter of customary law, warships and hence, a fortiori, merchant ships had a right of innocent passage through international straits, which could not be suspended by the coastal State. So we see the early formative years of law of sea where the court made an exception that the sovereignty the state could not be extended to an international strait. Now There was another case. Norwegian fishing rights which again speaks that Law of sea is codified as an international law where the courts decided and i quote

The delimitation of sea areas has always an international aspect; it cannot be de-
pendent merely upon the will of the coastal State as expressed in its municipal
law. Although it is true that the act of delimitation is necessarily a unilateral act,
because only the coastal State is competent to undertake it, the validity of the
delimitation with regard to other States depends upon international law.


and this internationalized the law of sea and how only international law can govern any form of delimitation and so if only international law can delimit the sea and that law is the law of the sea then is it not applicable on parties that havent signed it? The Convention was formed from the international practices of old and if no party can delimit the sea lines without international law then that means that the Convention of Law of Sea is not mere Convention but has customary value and many jurists utilize these judgments as arguments of the existence of such.

The international court also made for baseline delimitation and in the german norwegian dispute introduced rights of continental shelf however we need to understand that as complexity of the law of sea grew, so did the judgments and one of the judgments that i would look at here would be equitable doctrine which would evolve into equitable doctrine along with equity in law and this was in libya vs malta case. Now equitable doctrine dictates that the delimitation must be fair and must not be ignorant of the interest of any party.

the problem with the Aegean is that it is home to islands and rock formations that make it basically a semi-enclosed sea and this is the position of Turkey and we can see a rocky line being formed that lends credence to Turkish claims and in Article 122 and 123 of the Law of Sea, states which are home to such need to coordinate and cooperate thus a unilateral declaration will not be possible here at all since one could extend stating international law but a semi-enclosed sea is a different story and such a mention means that it has a special status in Law of Sea. It must also be stated that such an extension of claim by greece would make their maritime boundary from 40% to 70% which is against the interest of equitable exchange. Law of Sea is a vast vast law and i am a very young student in this field.

Where does treaties come into the picture when talking about maritime borders and such. I am certain that after the independence war it is stated in the treaty of Lausanne that the island in aegean has only 3 nm.

In my dealings with business law. The laws are only applicable if there are no other signed agreements

Also ret. Adm. Kutlu said that Greece had limited what icj could handle of cases. As such Greece has barred the ICJ from handling any case regarding aegean sea.
 

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