Greece Air-Force Greek Rafale Program

[Foulgrim]

The contracts for the 3 Greek FDI HN and the 6 additional Rafale F3R were initialed.
The first service monographs have been included in the draft contracts and now the contracts will go to the Court of Auditors and the Greek Parliament. The GDAEE (General Directorate of Defense Equipment and Investments) will then formally sign the contracts. This development is completely expected, as in this way, the Ministry of Finance commits funds for the advance payment of warships. The funds will be disbursed when the process is completed, but their commitment will be borne by the current budget. Thus, there will be no fiscal problem, while in 2022 Greece will be able to give the money for the corvettes, the MLRS and the other programs of the Greek Armed Forces. At the same time, the contracts for the additional 6 Rafale F3R fighter jets, which will come to complete the first 18, were also initialed. Thus, Greece will acquire a total of 24 type fighters. The financing of the fighter jets will be included in the 2021 budget.

ΕΞΕΛΙΞΗ: Μονογράφησαν οι συμβάσεις για τις 3 ελληνικές FDI HN και τα 6 επιπλέον Rafale F3R - Πτήση

Προς επίρρωσιν όσων έχουμε γράψει από το πρωί, κανένα, μα κανένα, μα κανένα πρόβλημα δεν υπάρχει στη διαδικασία συμβασιοποίησης των φρεγατών FDI HN για το Πολεμικό μας Ναυτικό. Οτιδήποτε άλλο κυκλοφορεί, είναι κάτι του στυλ “φασαρία αντιπολιτευτική να κάνουμε” ή “δώστε και μας κανά κλικ”. Οι...

www.ptisidiastima.com

 

[Akritas]

Rafale is a French twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft, which can carry its payload using 14 positions and is equipped with a very wide range of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The aircraft may carry out air superiority, air defense, close air support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship and nuclear strike missions.
It was been operational with the French Navy since 2004 and with the French Air Force since 2006, and it has seen action in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq and Syria.
The aircraft has been exported to Egypt, Qatar, India and now Greece.
Although it can not be described as stealthy, Rafale is designed to have the lowest possible radar trace and it is also equipped with the electronic warfare system, SPECTRA, developed by Thales. The existence of 2 engines offers the possibility of carrying enhanced payload in comparison to single-engine aircraft, such as the F-16 which HAF also operates.
Due to the combination of a Delta type wing and maneuvering fins (canards), the aircraft offers exceptional manouverability and at the same time maintains stability during flight. It can take off from small runways of about 400 meters, as well as from aircraft carriers.
In November 2018, the development of the F3-R version was approved, offering significant improvements, such as the RBE-2AA electronic scanning radar (AESA), the certification of MICA NG (New Generation) and Meteor, as well as TALIOS pods for identification and aiming, and AEROS pods for tactical and strategic reconaissance. Greece will receive this version of Rafale aircraft, 12 new and 12 second-hand.

 

[Akritas]

The Greek Rafales​

The used Rafale aircraft for the Hellenic Air Force have been manufactured between 2012 and 2018. They belong to the F3-O4T sub-version, but will be upgraded before delivery to F3-R and thus match the newly-built aircraft that are also on order.
This means that they will be equipped with the AESA RBE-2 radar, IRST and SPECTRA system, together with additional modifications that have been deemed necessary by Greek army officials.
One of the main differences is that the pilot will wear a TARGO II helmet, built by the Israeli Elbit company. The Helmet Mounted Display brought about a "revolution" to aerial combat when it first appeared and today it is considered inconceivable for pilots not to be provided with such systems. TARGO II will maximize the lethality of Mica air-to-air missiles in close air combat.

As the Minister of Defense highlighted in his speach in the Hellenic Parliament, the used Rafales that will be handed over by the French Air Force will still have 70% of their operational life available, that is 3,500 hours out of a total of 5,000 hours, which is the life limit of each "Rafale". At the same time, there is a possibility of structural upgrades of the aircraft in 2023 to 7,000 hours and in 2025 at 9,000 hours.

The addition of this aircraft to the Hellenic Airforce provides it with strategic capabilities never seen before. This is due to their extended autonomy, which reaches 920 nautical miles (1700 km) with full internal fuel (4,750 kg) and three external fuel tanks with a capacity of 2000 liters each. This autonomy can cover the entire Balkans area, the Turkish hinterland and of course the vital for the Greek interests coverage of the southeastern Mediterranean area.

Rafale aircraft can carry most, if not all, of the weapons currently available to Greek Mirage 2000 and Mirage 2000-5. In addition to these, the Rafale F3R will be able to carry two SCALP missiles simultaneously for sub-strategic missions, against only one of the Mirage 2000-5.

The procurement includes 18 single and 6 two-seater aircraft, as well as the provision of training, a flight simulator and technical support package for the first years.

 

[Akritas]

Rafale Armament​

The most important addition to the Greek arsenal is the adoption of MICA NG and Meteor missiles.

MICA NG will have a longer range and more capable sensors than the previous version, while it can be launched without requiring the enemy aircraft to be locked on. The missile is guided through a data link system to the specific area of interest and the pilot can activate either the infrared or the missile's radar detector in order to achieve the lock on the target. This means that the opponent will not receive an early warning for the incoming threat, since the lock can be achieved in a completely passive way.

Rafale's greatest asset in Air-to-Air warfare is the MBDA Meteor missile, which offers the longest range in the western arsenal, but also the highest mortality characteristics. Acquiring them will offer a huge advantage to the Hellenic Airforce, but the cost of Meteor missiles is very high, with reported costs ranging between 2 and 5 million euros per unit!
For this reason Hellenic Air Force purchased in high numbers to neutralize "high value targets" such as AWACS / AEW & C aircraft and air tankers.

The aircraft will also be certified for guided bombs AASM of 2,200 pounds. These bombs are similar to JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munitions), but with a propulsion engine, which increases their maximum range to about 60 kilometers, depending on the height of release.

The contract also includes the procurement of a flight simulator and the following armament:

• Meteor air-to-air missiles
• Mica RF Air-to-Air Missiles
• Mica IR Air-to-Air Missiles
• Scalp long-range cruise missiles
• Exocet AM39 Block2 Mod2
• Machine gun ammunition (30 mm)

Greek Rafale F3-R - F4 fighter aircraft

Photos and description of the Dassault Rafale F3-R and F4 aircraft of the Hellenic Air Force

www.ellinikos-stratos.com

 

[RogerRanger]

This is the perfect aircraft for Greek I think. Very good at everything, much like the F-16, but better more modern aircraft design and avionics.

So good for Greece.

The thing I got from the recent war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that you need an air force to protect your ground positions from the drones. Ground AA won't cut it anymore.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

This is the perfect aircraft for Greek I think. Very good at everything, much like the F-16, but better more modern aircraft design and avionics.

So good for Greece.

The thing I got from the recent war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that you need an air force to protect your ground positions from the drones. Ground AA won't cut it anymore.

Better avionics then f16 viper?

 

[RogerRanger]

Better avionics then f16 viper?

Maybe not than the new build F-16's, but compared to the existing F-16's Greece has. And it is all around more capable aircraft.

 

[Akritas]

Rafale F3R has the following distinct advantages over the Greek F-16V:

• Significantly smaller RCS compared to the F-16V, which allows it to evade enemy radar detection at a shorter range compared to the F-16V.
• Carries the advanced variable thrust Meteor BVR missile, which is currently the most accurate long-range air-to-air missile in the world.
• Carries the advanced Scalp a Long-range, air-to-surface missile, with operational range at 560 km.
• Powered by twin engines which increases reliability during combat and peacetime flying.
• Combat radius of Rafale are 1825 km while F-16V are 550 km.
• Can supercruise at Mach 1.4
• Has a superior threat sensor fusion, and situational awareness sensors compared to the F-16V.
• Engagement range is 42 targets in 100 km area while F-16V has engagement range is 20 targets in 84 km of area.

Greek F-16V in the following areas:

1. Is configured to carry a much wider and less expensive range of munitions due to an extensive range of weapon integration for dozens of operators.
2. Consumes 25% less fuel per kilometer of flight (0.70 km/l versus 0.91 km/l for Rafale).
3. Is far less expensive to operate (€12,000 per hour of flight vs €24,000 for Rafale.
4. Αirframe is rated for 12,000 flight hours compared to 8,000 hours for the Rafale.
5. APG-83 radar is superior to the AESA RBE2 radar fitted to the latest model of the Rafale F3. Both radars are in the top.

 

[Akritas]

The thing I got from the recent war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that you need an air force to protect your ground positions from the drones. Ground AA won't cut it anymore.

Your observation is correct.
Primary air defence, was/is/will be the modern aircrafts.
Rafale aims the Ground Control Stations, Radars(including AWACS) and airports.

 

[Combat-Master]

The thing I got from the recent war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that you need an air force to protect your ground positions from the drones. Ground AA won't cut it anymore.

I think you'll find in any upcoming war that has an AIr Force will not provide the protection required either. Rather, those who have a sophisticated defence industry that can develop weapons to counter adversary will be better off.

Greece will be stuck to fighting any war, conventionally. While Turkey can develop weaponry that will blindside it's adversaries.

 

[Akritas]

While Turkey can develop weaponry that will blindside it's adversaries.

Recent developments in the Altay, T129, TB2, T214 and many others projects prove the opposite.
Unless you think that in case of conflict, Americans will let the Ukrainians and Koreans give you engines, Germans sold you opticals and gearboxes, e.tc.
Turkey seeks war, proves it with Mavi Vatan, wants Greek lands and this requires time and money.
On the other hand, Greece invests in military power multipliers such as Rafale because wants the cost of the Turkish attack to be high.

 

[RogerRanger]

I think you'll find in any upcoming war that has an AIr Force will not provide the protection required either. Rather, those who have a sophisticated defence industry that can develop weapons to counter adversary will be better off.

Greece will be stuck to fighting any war, conventionally. While Turkey can develop weaponry that will blindside it's adversaries.

I agree with that. Turkey's larger economy and population, its alliances and exports of armaments allow it to invest in things Greece can't.

I also think that air defence is needed in all spectrum's in the modern day. You need land, air, sea, space and sub-orbital capacity and to integrate them all with information and technology to create a mapping for the battle space. What still matters I think is strategic depth, Greece has much less than Turkey. Giving Turkey an advantage. Along with more defence options. Then its just a matter of the Turkish Ruling class being more capable than the Greek ruling class so they make the most of these advantages.

 

[RogerRanger]

Your observation is correct.
Primary air defence, was/is/will be the modern aircrafts.
Rafale aims the Ground Control Stations, Radars(including AWACS) and airports.

Yes. I looked at the reports about how Armenia lost because of the Azerbaijan drones, I was like that's a huge deal. Then British defence sec said how we need to produce drones like Turkey and we moved away from the F-35 to drones and the Tempest, so I looked into it more. And Armenia basically didn't have a combat air force, it has no strategic depth, it has a population 1/3 of Azerbaijan, 1/5 the economy. So all it had was older Russian ground based AA. So it was a much smaller deal than I thought at first.

Does the war need to be learned from and understood, does there need to be certain changes and improves made in west air forces and armies to combat modern drones and long-range weapons. Sure. However you don't need to change your entire strategy like the British have done. Armenia should have lost the war, it just wouldn't have been a total crushing of their military capabilities like it was. That's was the surprising thing.

 

[Lool]

Recent developments in the Altay, T129, TB2, T214 and many others projects prove the opposite.
Unless you think that in case of conflict, Americans will let the Ukrainians and Koreans give you engines, Germans sold you opticals and gearboxes, e.tc.
Turkey seeks war, proves it with Mavi Vatan, wants Greek lands and this requires time and money.
On the other hand, Greece invests in military power multipliers such as Rafale because wants the cost of the Turkish attack to be high.

Hm......
Do you realise that the engines the Koreans will give are for the primary batch
Did you know that the BATU engine has already been built amd is being tested

What we learned from recent embargo is that the Turkish engine will swallow the international market and will make the Germans regret even embargoing Turkey. If they didnt embargo Turkey, the Germans would have a massive monopoly on the tank market with Turkey, a potential competitor, not developing its engines at all

 

[NEKO]

carry its payload using 14 positions and is equipped with a very wide range of surface-to-air and surface-to-air missiles.

*Air-to-air and air-to-surface?

 

[Ryder]

Yes. I looked at the reports about how Armenia lost because of the Azerbaijan drones, I was like that's a huge deal. Then British defence sec said how we need to produce drones like Turkey and we moved away from the F-35 to drones and the Tempest, so I looked into it more. And Armenia basically didn't have a combat air force, it has no strategic depth, it has a population 1/3 of Azerbaijan, 1/5 the economy. So all it had was older Russian ground based AA. So it was a much smaller deal than I thought at first.

Does the war need to be learned from and understood, does there need to be certain changes and improves made in west air forces and armies to combat modern drones and long-range weapons. Sure. However you don't need to change your entire strategy like the British have done. Armenia should have lost the war, it just wouldn't have been a total crushing of their military capabilities like it was. That's was the surprising thing.

Armenia was pretty much getting curb stomped pretty badly by Azerbaijan what stopped their utter annilation was Russia.

Russia literally bailed the Armenians out from being destroyed.

Armenians were occupying lands and fighting a war that they could not win.

 

[Ryder]

Recent developments in the Altay, T129, TB2, T214 and many others projects prove the opposite.
Unless you think that in case of conflict, Americans will let the Ukrainians and Koreans give you engines, Germans sold you opticals and gearboxes, e.tc.
Turkey seeks war, proves it with Mavi Vatan, wants Greek lands and this requires time and money.
On the other hand, Greece invests in military power multipliers such as Rafale because wants the cost of the Turkish attack to be high.

You do realise that Turkey is also developing domestic alternatives in the long run.

If you are gonna win against Turkey you gotta strike our factories too. Turkey is building missiles that can easily hit Athens with a push of the button.

What happens when shit hits the fan are you gonna rely on your rafales?

 

[Blackhawk]

Recent developments in the Altay, T129, TB2, T214 and many others projects prove the opposite.
Unless you think that in case of conflict, Americans will let the Ukrainians and Koreans give you engines, Germans sold you opticals and gearboxes, e.tc.
Turkey seeks war, proves it with Mavi Vatan, wants Greek lands and this requires time and money.
On the other hand, Greece invests in military power multipliers such as Rafale because wants the cost of the Turkish attack to be high.

If you ask me, the country that wants war is the country that violates many of the agreements it has signed but seeks excuses for its own claims by interpreting some of them as it suits them, and trying to close the whole coast of a country of 85 million people for a tiny island, but which seeks all kinds of alliances because it cannot afford, and speaks about Turkey in every country they go to.

If you could, you would wage a war tomorrow, but if these two countries are not at war, it is because of Turkey's deterrent power. If Turkey wanted war, you wouldn't have a single base where you can deploy your planes. The reason you take up arms is to prepare for your expansionist claims that will be a cause of war in the future. You don't see any moral, ethical and rule objections in your claims trying to connect the whole Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean Seas by demanding almost the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean for a tiny island 2km from Turkey, but when Turkey, as being the largeat coastline in Mediterranean claims the seas at the edge of its nose, you accept that Turkey don't want its rights but "war". We actually call it "Şark Kurnazlığı". You can only deceive the blind and deaf with this type of perception games. We are aware of the inconsistency of your claims and the perception games you play. Turkish steps will be taken as a response to every step you take. If you're craving war, I'm sure you'll have what you want when you need it.

 

[Ryder]

If you ask me, the country that wants war is the country that violates many of the agreements it has signed but seeks excuses for its own claims by interpreting some of them as it suits them, and trying to close the whole coast of a country of 85 million people for a tiny island, but which seeks all kinds of alliances because it cannot afford, and speaks about Turkey in every country they go to.

If you could, you would wage a war tomorrow, but if these two countries are not at war, it is because of Turkey's deterrent power. If Turkey wanted war, you wouldn't have a single base where you can deploy your planes. The reason you take up arms is to prepare for your expansionist claims that will be a cause of war in the future. You don't see any moral, ethical and rule objections in your claims trying to connect the whole Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean Seas by demanding almost the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean for a tiny island 2km from Turkey, but when Turkey, as being the largeat coastline in Mediterranean claims the seas at the tip of its cape, you accept that Turkey don't want its rights but "war". We actually call it "Şark Kurnazlığı". You can only deceive the blind and deaf with this type of perception games. We are aware of the inconsistency of your claims and the perception games you play. Turkish steps will be taken as a response to every step you take. If you're craving war, I'm sure you'll have what you want when you need it.

Greece is not just wanting to block the seas to Turkey they even want to block the air thats why they have stupid dubious claims of their airspace and are also trying enlarge it.

Greece's plan is to block Turkey in sea and the air so it cant breath.

While at the same time they are playing the victim.

 

[Ryder]

Another fact about Rafale is that it was born due to France's disagreements about the Eurofighter Typhoon.

France wanted a naval version while other members especially Germany said no. France left and develop their own program and the rafale was born.

Basically typhoon and rafale were born out of the same program but got separated.