TR HÜRJET-Advanced Jet Trainer/ Light attack aircraft

[Spook]

KAI T-50 Conceptual Roadmap

T/A-50 is the lead-in fighter trainer/light attack

F-50 was cancelled in favor of KF-21. One of the reasons being that it wouldn't be as good as modern F16 variants

 

[Lool]

Gotta wait and see how they perform though. Turkey will probably start manufacturing Hurjet in 2025-26 and deliver 10 TF-X in 2030-2033. You really want to wait that long? We can worry about 5th gen later.

TAI TF Kaan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turkey’s TAI plans to start production of jet trainer at year-end

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) plans to start manufacturing the indigenous advanced jet trainer and light attack aircraft, Hürjet, at the end of this...

www.dailysabah.com

Shouldnt they finish manufacturing a prototype by the end of this year
And start ground tests immediately at the beginning of the next year?

 

[Spook]

Shouldnt they finish manufacturing a prototype by the end of this year
And start ground tests immediately at the beginning of the next year?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1419595925740216320

Good flood to read

First Hurjet prototype likely in 5-6 months

Kotil said that first Hurjet with engine reveal would be 2021 but first engine deliveries said to 2022. So under best conditions first prototype will be revealed 2022.

First prototype should start ground tests 2022 if everything goes smoothly but difficult to say whether that it would be delayed to 2023.

Hurjet iron bird test system signed in 2020 between TAI and Altinay

Full size static test system under development.

Aircraft structure test systems under development.

Lightning test system for MMU will be finished 2022.

Hurjet simulators are being developed which should give feedback near real conditions.

We are said to be working with an Ukrainian firm for actuators as they have expertise in this field

We might be working on landing gear with Italy. Maybe it would be same company that would develop with Italian company for MMU.

Seats would be likely Martin-Baker. They will maybe do ejection seat tests with HABRAS?

How main structures will be built is a question. TAI is heavily investing for additive manufacturing capabilities. New composite manufacturing facility just entered service

 

[Yasar_TR]

It seems like “engine” problem is causing another delay in our prototype production.
Mark my word, TFX will be a victim of engine hold up too!
When will we learn? Why not get your engine first. EJ200 or RD93 . Have them ready and then start development.
Now they say engine won’t be coming in until 2022. Can we believe that?

 

[Spook]

It seems like “engine” problem is causing another delay in our prototype production.
Mark my word, TFX will be a victim of engine hold up too!
When will we learn? Why not get your engine first. EJ200 or RD93 . Have them ready and then start development.
Now they say engine won’t be coming in until 2022. Can we believe that?

This is a big question for me too. What are we trusting on? They could allow export licenses for trainer variants then ban any for armed variants or just ban altogether later. Are we developing our own engines as a plan? We know that TEI is working on bigger engines. I think TEI would develop at least 2-3 turbofan jet engines if you think. Knowledge from those project needed for MMU engine. Also considering future our UAV programs would need more advanced engines. Something like TF-6000, TF-6000 variant with afterburner. New more powerful engines derived off that engines etc.

 

[Yasar_TR]

This is a big question for me too. What are we trusting on? They could allow export licenses for trainer variants then ban any for armed variants or just ban altogether later. Are we developing our own engines as a plan? We know that TEI is working on bigger engines. I think TEI would develop at least 2-3 turbofan jet engines if you think. Knowledge from those project needed for MMU engine. Also considering future our UAV programs would need more advanced engines. Something like TF-6000, TF-6000 variant with afterburner. New more powerful engines derived off that engines etc.

TF6000 is probably an engine that has 6000lbf dry thrust. If so, it would put it as a derivative of TS1400. If TS 1400 is redesigned to be an axial flow turbofan engine, it would turn out to be a 6000lbf dry thrust engine like TF6000. That sized engine is well within the scope of TEI’s production capability. It is small and not too difficult.
But an engine with a dry thrust level of 12-14000lbf is going to be big and will bring certain difficulties with it.

 

[Zafer]

If TS1400 power level gives TF6000 then TF12000 comes from TS3000.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If TS1400 power level gives TF6000 then TF12000 comes from TS3000.

Correct line of thought!
But there is no TS3000 in hand. We don’t even know where TEI is with it’s development.
One would think that they are developing both the TS and TF versions of it side by side. A 12-13000lbf dry thrust should give around 20-22000lbf with After Burner. And that should be enough to power a trainer Hurjet as a light fighter jet too.
The only problem is, as the diameter of the engine gets bigger the turbine blades become more difficult to manufacture. A 20000lbf thrust class engine has around 70cm diameter. In other words much larger than TS1400. That means blades, rotating at 30-40k per minute in hot sections are bigger and at super heated form, the crystalline structured layers start to slide over each other. Creep starts to occur. This has to be compensated and calculated in to the manufacturing of the blades. This is a new obstacle for TEI to overcome. (Chinese have been working on it last 20 years and still not achieved their goal)

 

[Nilgiri]

The only problem is, as the diameter of the engine gets bigger the turbine blades become more difficult to manufacture.

Among other things. You explain the creep problem w.r.t blade size increase very well and succinctly.

There are also major obstacles in even the flow modelling (esp crucial handoff zones), things do not scale (and you change to do so and it creates feedback loop problem with something else earlier in flow)...and you often find you needed to design from ground up anyway....and you just lost X amount of quality man-hours in the reverse-engg. Even a 0.1% loss in certain areas cascades to significant % performance or lifecycle loss.

(Chinese have been working on it last 20 years and still not achieved their goal)

This is the exact problem the Chinese have (or anyone attempting it with raw man hour supply and access to material spectroscopy and all geometries etc)...

The leaves and branches are known to high degree by them with the time they have spent....unfortunately there is a big wall/limitation going this approach....as you didnt do it from root-->trunk--->branch--->leaves.

The directions are not anywhere close to 100% reversible in learning + application to say a larger tree. As a tree grows one way....and particularly complicated tree (like we have here) is very inelastic to reverse engg's counter direction approach.

Doing the vast networking of first principle research cannot be shortcut well in this discipline....compared to other fields where Chinese have found it far easier to daisy chain backwards....and even create their own fundamental applied innovations in an area.

 

[Zafer]

the crystalline structured layers start to slide over each other

Hence the single crystal tech.

TEI develop technology; for quality control purposes TEI can now measure and correct at every point on a finished product by using laser scanning the whole thing, the first company in the world to do so.

TEI can make many things happen if only we could know what is best to work on as Turkey's own need for production of a piece of equipment is not plentiful. However such process advancements make production of equipment more economical and can allow for making more development efforts viable. If orders of more then a couple hundred pieces of an equipment can be guarantied any piece of machinery can be produced, I believe.

 

[Philips]

The TS1400 can be made into a TF6000 and with afterburner a TF9000 just like the F124 and F125. The F125 is a unique afterburning turbofan engine with two different compressors composed of a 1st axial and 2nd radial/centrifugal compressor. I don't know if there is an official term for such a hybrid combination, so lets call it a 'hybrid-compressor'.

= Axial
= Radial/Centrifugal


F125/TFE1042

The TS1400 has two radial/centrifugal compressors and TEI needs to design and develop its first axial compressor for a turbofan if they want to convert it into the TF6000. If they accomplish that, they are one step closer to design a full length axial compressor for a turbofan, which they need to do for a medium-thrust turbofan in the F404/414 and EJ200 class.

TS1400

There is a point where the radial compressor gives little advantage and gives more problems like increased engine diameter and thus lower efficiency. That's why there are no medium thrust engines and larger with a radial compressor. Its all axial.

F404/RM-12

If TS1400 power level gives TF6000

Yes.

then TF12000 comes from TS3000.

Unfortunately not. TEI needs to design it from scratch like @Nilgiri noted.

 

[Zafer]

Unfortunately not. TEI needs to design it from scratch like @Nilgiri noted.

Of course not, every bit of equipment must be designed from scratch for the purpose, my words only refer to the power level of the engine. TEI has the expertise of design from the engines it already made so they only need to run the process for another engine.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hence the single crystal tech.

TEI develop technology; for quality control purposes TEI can now measure and correct at every point on a finished product by using laser scanning the whole thing, the first company in the world to do so.

TEI can make many things happen if only we could know what is best to work on as Turkey's own need for production of a piece of equipment is not plentiful. However such process advancements make production of equipment more economical and can allow for making more development efforts viable. If orders of more then a couple hundred pieces of an equipment can be guarantied any piece of machinery can be produced, I believe.

Correct! That is why single crystal super alloy blades were invented. To stop crystal lattices sliding over each other within the crystal structure of super alloys.
But actually, “Creep” still occurs within the single crystal super alloys. The whole crystal will stretch under extreme heat and stress. The trick is to introduce cooling ducts in to the design and more importantly special coating to reduce heat. (as much as few hundred degrees in some cases) . Also stray boundary lines within the single crystal may form, causing more problems. Reduction or if possible eliminating these stray boundary lines are vital.
As the diameter of turbine increases, for a given rotation, the rotational speed of blades will also increase and with the addition of heat, the “creep” will start to set in. P&W , RR, GE have all managed to produce turbines that can last over 20000hours with regular maintenance.
So the stresses on the blades in an engine like TS1400, and the blades in an engine like F110 are VERY different.

 

[TNAHN]

We are importing Kuzgun's 150 lb class engine. The development work of the tj90 engine is still ongoing. Therefore, it is useful to set expectations accordingly.

 

[Yasar_TR]

TEI needs to design and develop its first axial compressor ever if they want to convert it into the TF6000. If they accomplish that, they are one step closer to design a full length axial compressor for a turbofan

TJ300 is actually an axial flow engine. Mr Aksit had stated that they produced this engine as a test engine to see if they could build an axial flow version of a jet engine.
Quote:
Totally designed and developed locally with national means in cooperation with TUBITAK, TEI and Roketsan the TJ- 300engineisasingle-shaft axial-flow type turbojet engine consisting of a 4-stage axial compressor and a fixed outlet nozzle. According to information disclosed during the ceremony the TJ-300 Turbojet Engine also has the capacity of powering a high-speed jet-powered UAV weighing 1.300kg.
Unquote.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/5f4529f9c0ce2.pdf

 

[TheInsider]

TJ300 is actually an axial flow engine. Mr Aksit had stated that they produced this engine as a test engine to see if they could build an axial flow version of a jet engine.
Quote:
Totally designed and developed locally with national means in cooperation with TUBITAK, TEI and Roketsan the TJ- 300engineisasingle-shaft axial-flow type turbojet engine consisting of a 4-stage axial compressor and a fixed outlet nozzle. According to information disclosed during the ceremony the TJ-300 Turbojet Engine also has the capacity of powering a high-speed jet-powered UAV weighing 1.300kg.
Unquote.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/5f4529f9c0ce2.pdf

True and in the latest iteration of the TJ-300, the diameter of the engine was reduced from 240mm to 224mm without sacrificing the thrust(1342N). Those values are world-class.

I heard a rumor that initially, Kuzgun will be powered by a Pratt-Whitney TJ-150-3 150 lbf engine. TEI has no engine at 150lbf class TEI TJ-90 (90 lbf) doesn't provide enough power for Kuzgun and TEI TJ-300 is an overkill.

 

[Philips]

"Hürjet's ground tests will begin at the beginning of 2022, it will make its first flight on March 18, 2023, and it will be delivered in 2025. It will take 2027 for us to deliver the armed Hürjet. We will deliver the MMU in 2028."

"Hürjet's price will be 1/4 of MMU, and its operational expenses will be less than 1/4."

"There is an international tender soon. We are preparing ourselves for it. If they buy from us, we will have concluded our first (Hürjet) export in 2022 and made our first delivery in 2025."

 

[Cabatli_TR]

"Hürjet's ground tests will begin at the beginning of 2022, it will make its first flight on March 18, 2023, and it will be delivered in 2025. It will take 2027 for us to deliver the armed Hürjet. We will deliver the MMU in 2028."
"Hürjet's price will be 1/4 of MMU, and its operational expenses will be less than 1/4."
"There is an international tender soon. We are preparing ourselves for it. If they buy from us, we will have concluded our first (Hürjet) export in 2022 and made our first delivery in 2025."

Hürjet ground test: 2022
First flight: 18th of March 2023
Delivery of trainer Hürjet: 2025
Delivery of armed Hürjet: 2027

 

[Philips]

I wonder what tender the Hurjet is going to compete in? I only know of the Malaysian tender between the JF-17B and T-50. I doubt they are going to wait until 2025 for the Hurjet.

 

[TheInsider]

Hurjet trainer version will cost 20 million $
Cost per flight hour 5k-6k $.