India HAL Tejas Program

Gessler

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What is the different between Tejas Mark 1 and Mark 2 beside the engine ( F414) ?

Broadly speaking, Mk-2 will have these improvements over Mk-1/Mk-1A:

  • Higher thrust class engine
  • Overall a bigger, heavier aircraft
  • Canards
  • Significantly higher fuel & payload capacity & MTOW, plus more hardpoints
  • Internal IRST
  • GaN AESA radar
  • Panoramic cockpit with single wide-angle MFD
  • Flight stick will be moved to right hand side of cockpit instead of in the middle
 

Nilgiri

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Based on its tender, the technical requirements include versatility of Fighter Lead-In Trainer/LCA feature, Integrated Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile system and a platform able to conduct air-to-air and air-to-ground missions effectively, with a future maritime strike capability.

Given this, a comprehensive evaluation on merits should point to the Tejas from India having the edge over the Korean FA-50 and Chinese L-15.

The other three jet fighters do not seem to meet the minimum technical requirements.

The technical requirements will no doubt impact on the practical range of weight and cost-effective design and performance of the LCA.

Generally, it is argued that while cost is important a well-designed lightweight fighter is able to match or perform better than a heavier type plane-for-plane in many missions at a lower cost.

The LCAs, which have caught the attention of the RMAF, have varying features and advantages of their own such as weapon system effectiveness, superior manoeuvrability as well as small visual and radar signatures.

The technical features notwithstanding, what will tip the scale is the LCA that offers competitive features with cost-effective design and performance, and a total comprehensive package which the successful supplier is able to offer. This must include the best value palm oil countertrade commitment.

The comprehensive package is expected to cover payment options, RMAF fleet ecosystem fit based on commonality and inter-operability, to double up as lead-in fighter trainers, to cover scope of integrated logistics and all-level maintenance system support as well as scope for transfer of technology and local content requirements.
 

Zapper

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his must include the best value palm oil countertrade commitment.
When it comes to palm oil imports, India is second to none and when it comes to Malaysian exports which is the second largest palm oil exporter, India is it's biggest consumer accounting for twice that of China

View attachment 38163

View attachment 38164

Given this, a comprehensive evaluation on merits should point to the Tejas from India having the edge over the Korean FA-50 and Chinese L-15
It is absolutely absurd for China to pitch in their jet when RMAF's primary reason for inducting a new LCA is to ward off chinese incursions. This is nothing short of pakistan pitching their JF-17 for a tender floated by IAF.

The Korean offering is just not comparable to the likes of LCA Tejas and is more like a beefed up trainer jet. Also, the price of KAI T-50 was $35mn back in 2014. Now with inflation and increased costs, add atleast another $5-7mn putting it on par with Tejas which offers much more in terms of capabilities, range, weapons offerings and customization involved
 

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When it comes to palm oil imports, India is second to none and when it comes to Malaysian exports which is the second largest palm oil exporter, India is it's biggest consumer accounting for twice that of China

View attachment 38163

View attachment 38164


It is absolutely absurd for China to pitch in their jet when RMAF's primary reason for inducting a new LCA is to ward off chinese incursions. This is nothing short of pakistan pitching their JF-17 for a tender floated by IAF.

The Korean offering is just not comparable to the likes of LCA Tejas and is more like a beefed up trainer jet. Also, the price of KAI T-50 was $35mn back in 2014. Now with inflation and increased costs, add atleast another $5-7mn putting it on par with Tejas which offers much more in terms of capabilities, range, weapons offerings and customization involved

Yah well, India has much to prove on surplus capacity for exports in military domain. This along with number of other things (India is still figuring out + proving) affects impetus that can be given by quick + competitive delivery + support. Consider continued reluctance to involve private sector ready capacity in this project...i.e everything assembly wise is to be done with HAL. At least components have been somewhat hedged and spread more (more driven by basic need than any planned rational wisdom).

Many of it ties back to 90s when things were not done pragmatically enough in how to organise and take to fruition by prioritised spending+gestating better then w.r.t lag and lead times, cost efficiencies and economies of scale (esp with France Mirage 2000 etc).

It is now case of making best of situation at hand, play to known strengths....and see how it goes. This decade India is and will be still quite behind on how it can deploy and impact overall....given the timeframes and inertias involved in such things.

Though maybe India will supply in some form of SKU/CKU (to get around the HAL capacity issue) given there is talk of whole local MRO facility being set up in malaysia long term as part of the offer.
 

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Yah well, India has much to prove on surplus capacity for exports in military domain. This along with number of other things (India is still figuring out + proving) affects impetus that can be given by quick + competitive delivery + support. Consider continued reluctance to involve private sector ready capacity in this project...i.e everything assembly wise is to be done with HAL. At least components have been somewhat hedged and spread more (more driven by basic need than any planned rational wisdom).

Many of it ties back to 90s when things were not done pragmatically enough in how to organise and take to fruition by prioritised spending+gestating better then w.r.t lag and lead times, cost efficiencies and economies of scale (esp with France Mirage 2000 etc).

It is now case of making best of situation at hand, play to known strengths....and see how it goes. This decade India is and will be still quite behind on how it can deploy and impact overall....given the timeframes and inertias involved in such things.

Though maybe India will supply in some form of SKU/CKU (to get around the HAL capacity issue) given there is talk of whole local MRO facility being set up in malaysia long term as part of the offer.
While the who saga of production, timely delivery and establishing a robust supply chain along with high availability of spares are issues which come at a later note...GoI/MoD should focus on bagging the contract and for this to happen, they need to employ PR firms and lobbying groups to influence the decision in our favor while also providing financial guarantee to the contract which is exactly why we lost the Philippines Navy corvette contract to the South Koreans
 

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While the who saga of production, timely delivery and establishing a robust supply chain along with high availability of spares are issues which come at a later note...GoI/MoD should focus on bagging the contract and for this to happen, they need to employ PR firms and lobbying groups to influence the decision in our favor while also providing financial guarantee to the contract which is exactly why we lost the Philippines Navy corvette contract to the South Koreans

They should do a whole lot of things, but nothing changes the fact that IAF is severely squadron-deficit and capacity issues are being entrenched regardless.

That effects ability/attractiveness to export.

Even if you do export, it then has impact on those airframes not going toward IAF which sorely needed the (already late) 83 or so long time ago.

A "hidden" supply-based cost, self imposed and gestated for decades.

It (along with deployed + proven time at number) is all noticed by world markets given these are high value added low number items that carry strategic relation weight too.

Then the extra costs+time of changing whatever the client asks (could be some Israeli hardware in this case)...that will all have to be priced in.

India today is simply not a fighter surplus or production surplus country to provide a large majority basis of what is looked at and negotiated by prospective buyers.

Add to that relations with Malaysia have taken their ups and downs with India. Will they change their vote in FATF while buying Indian hardware (that Indian military itself has huge scarcity of and is very slowly and correcting very late in the game).

So it all remains to be seen in making do with what the cake is baked like now.

If Tejas had multiple squadrons in operation by now (as it should have) and plenty of proven spare production capacity (i.e deficit in IAF reduced to some degree and proven commitment to further energy it can muster to addressing the squadron shortfall)...it would be different and far more assured proposition in winning this....but it is not the case.

Simply, 83 Tejas production rate impact (given sustained IAF deficit in squadrons for 10+ years already and 10+ years going forward) is the big issue to consider w.r.t any export contracts imposing on that already narrow supply chain.

18 LIFT-LCA export models is neither here nor there (number wise) in say likely getting India's peculiar MIC strategy to open up extra capacity (say outside of HAL to a corporate)....it will likely have impact on existing one.
 

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Parts of this sound quite promising though @Zapper et al:


HAL will be delivering the first three aircraft in 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years, the Defence Ministry had stated earlier.

To ramp up production, HAL has already set up two additional assembly lines. Stating that all three LCA assembly lines are operational now, Mr. Madhavan said the back end of the lines is what they are finishing now including supply of sub-assemblies by vendors.



========================
I wonder if 4th- 5th line can be set up easily for export customers. This way there will be lower impact on delivery needs to IAF.
 

Zapper

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Parts of this sound quite promising though @Zapper et al:


HAL will be delivering the first three aircraft in 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years, the Defence Ministry had stated earlier.

To ramp up production, HAL has already set up two additional assembly lines. Stating that all three LCA assembly lines are operational now, Mr. Madhavan said the back end of the lines is what they are finishing now including supply of sub-assemblies by vendors.



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I wonder if 4th- 5th line can be set up easily for export customers. This way there will be lower impact on delivery needs to IAF.
Current line produces 8 jets per year. With two additional lines, that should be 24 jets but why is it only 16 unless one line will solely be used for exports

Additionally, the Su-30 lines will be idle and I wonder if they can be modified at least for the MWF to initiate production
 

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Current line produces 8 jets per year. With two additional lines, that should be 24 jets but why is it only 16 unless one line will solely be used for exports

Additionally, the Su-30 lines will be idle and I wonder if they can be modified at least for the MWF to initiate production

Its probably assembly line max production rate that is 8 (with whatever the stress and strain impact running at 100%) per year.

It is the sustained funding, labour + capital availability that will determine what the desired/projected throughput is...rather than simply (max) 8x3.

i.e MOD has funded in certain way over 5 years or so.....probably with underlying component+sub-assembly flow in mind (since these are what dictate the final production rate).

i.e with regard to potentially better stress and strain (i.e seemingly around 66% of max capacity) on the line ought to be if there is some redundancy + flexibility needed w.r.t mk1A improvements.

Remember there is capital investment requirements for each line...cost sinking in 3 (now than later) and operating at 66% might be more prudent option for now....depends on some details we are not privy to.

Then maybe easy bump/ramp to 100% if a later export demand requires it (in interim) while figuring out new additional lines in future for those, depending how that goes.

SU-30 lines might soon be seeing SU-30 upgrade activity this decade....but maybe there is spare capacity that can be utilised.
 

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SU-30 lines might soon be seeing SU-30 upgrade activity this decade....but maybe there is spare capacity that can be utilised.
Are you referring to the Super Sukhoi upgrade? I assume that is unlikely to happen and HAL will end up installing it's own upgrades of certain sub-systems developed by DRDO and it's entities (I posted the list of upgrades picture along with entire revamp of cockpit somewhere on this forum earlier). Since these upgrades are mostly swapping existing internal modules and not any structural changes, it doesn't necessitate the need for using it's production lines

I hope we use that for MWF and induct numbers on the lines of JF-17 or more
 

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Are you referring to the Super Sukhoi upgrade? I assume that is unlikely to happen and HAL will end up installing it's own upgrades of certain sub-systems developed by DRDO and it's entities (I posted the list of upgrades picture along with entire revamp of cockpit somewhere on this forum earlier). Since these upgrades are mostly swapping existing internal modules and not any structural changes, it doesn't necessitate the need for using it's production lines

I hope we use that for MWF and induct numbers on the lines of JF-17 or more

Depends how they opt for the overhaul schedule even with LRU-only approach that will need testing and cert after as well.

I would assume it will be a "do everything at once" kinda gig since you are putting the bird into downtime...rather than having to impact their regular MRO times in more frequent pieces.

This can impact specific parts of the (capital + labour + time) capacity given the bulk number of sukhois and need to get them done ASAP to stay maximum relevant in their remaining deployment age.

Have to see what they opt for. The conversion times once something is commited to and started will give idea on what capacity buffers actually are.

I hope with MWF at least they will consider giving private corporate final assembly role so they can bring their capacity to bear....because yes its sorely needed for squadron numbers. AMCA will not be coming online soon enough (or cheap enough) to make up shortfall.
 

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Any chance it might get a towed jammer or a deployable jammer similar to BriteCloud?

Haven't seen anything of that nature being brought up yet for Tejas.

Within IAF, I think only Rafale has a towed radar decoy/jammer as part of its Spectra EW suite.

Hopefully India develops this for more platforms it operates.
 

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@Nilgiri @Zapper Bro, I want to know which India Air Force fighters that can carry Nuke.......
As mentioned by @crixus Jags, M2Ks and Rafales can carry nukes

Russia did modify a few Su-30s in their fleet to enable nuke capability. IAF can also do that but I don't specifically see a reason given our existing fleet and we need more air dominance fighters at the moment since it's very unlikely to use nukes except as a last resort
 

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As mentioned by @crixus Jags, M2Ks and Rafales can carry nukes

Russia did modify a few Su-30s in their fleet to enable nuke capability. IAF can also do that but I don't specifically see a reason given our existing fleet and we need more air dominance fighters at the moment since it's very unlikely to use nukes except as a last resort

Why not every type of fighter can carry Nuke ? What is inside Rafale that make it Nuke capable fighter ?
 

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Why not every type of fighter can carry Nuke ? What is inside Rafale that make it Nuke capable fighter ?
Nuclear Capable weapons platforms have a computer system that is capable of disabling the fail-safe device and arming the warhead. While any jet can physically carry a nuclear weapon - only a select few actually have the means to arm one

Nuclear weapons require a special code entered to start the arming sequence. Without this code, the safety features are not disabled and the weapon will not function. This is to prevent accidental detonation of the weapon if the aircraft has an accident
 
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