Canada Halifax shipyard warns warship schedule contingent on more federal funding

DAVEBLOGGINS

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The president of Irving shipyard says it is on schedule to cut steel for the future CSC Frigate project in two years however it needs more funds from Ottawa to upgrade portions of the shipyard to handle the capability and capacity of the frigate program by mid 2024. He indicated that Irving needs hard funding from Ottawa by the end of 2022. "The clock is ticking, there absolutely a clock ticking. It is critical, absolutely critical that we get this result as soon as possible" he indicated. Mooney did not say how much money Irving is looking for to upgrade the yard but it is probably substantial. This could be a big setback for the CSC project if the upgrades are not completed on time and could affect more delays fo the troubled project. See the report below from The Toronto Star:

https://www.thestar.com/politics/20...edule-contingent-on-more-federal-funding.html
 

Ted Barnes

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Yes they are in talks with government right now. I knew about this two years ago that the assembly hall wasn't suitable for the build as the type and dimensions of the selection grew over what was envisioned originally for Irving to ne selected as a NSS yard. They are looking for a 100M upgrade and a reconfiguration of the assembly areas to do multiple builds at the same time.
 

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Yes they are in talks with government right now. I knew about this two years ago that the assembly hall wasn't suitable for the build as the type and dimensions of the selection grew over what was envisioned originally for Irving to ne selected as a NSS yard. They are looking for a 100M upgrade and a reconfiguration of the assembly areas to do multiple builds at the same time.
Agree Ted, however, Irving knew about this years ago when they signed the contract to build these CSC "monsters" and should have included those costs when they negotiated the build with the Canadian Government. I can see profit as they are a business, but greed is such a nasty business tactic! An extra $100M? We are getting 'hosed"!!:mad:
 

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Agree Ted, however, Irving knew about this years ago when they signed the contract to build these CSC "monsters" and should have included those costs when they negotiated the build with the Canadian Government. I can see profit as they are a business, but greed is such a nasty business tactic! An extra $100M? We are getting 'hosed"!!:mad:
Well there is number if issues of what you just said. As part of the NSP or NSS these days Irving had to upgrade their yard IAW the contract for the scope of work for the combat package of the NSS. The upgrades which was specified for a certain size ship were completed years before the type 26 was even considered or building methods. Once the AOPS build got under way no changes could be made and the change of requirements by the government and selection by the government of the type 26 Irving is now forced to do further upgrades. Therefore Irving is in negotiations with procurement for funds to complete these upgrades they should not bear responsibility.
 

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Well there is number if issues of what you just said. As part of the NSP or NSS these days Irving had to upgrade their yard IAW the contract for the scope of work for the combat package of the NSS. The upgrades which was specified for a certain size ship were completed years before the type 26 was even considered or building methods. Once the AOPS build got under way no changes could be made and the change of requirements by the government and selection by the government of the type 26 Irving is now forced to do further upgrades. Therefore Irving is in negotiations with procurement for funds to complete these upgrades they should not bear responsibility.
If Irving did not include any of the technical upgrades in the yard for the CSC Frigate program with the awarding of the CSC program to Halifax Shipyards, they at least knew this was going to be a problem and should have been cognisent on Irvings part, to immediately engage the government for those future improvement needs soon thereafter to keep the ball rolling many years ago. If you are saying Ted that Irving Shipyard bears no responsibility what-so-ever for their un-proactive performance in getting these ships built, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.(n)
 

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If Irving did not include any of the technical upgrades in the yard for the CSC Frigate program with the awarding of the CSC program to Halifax Shipyards, they at least knew this was going to be a problem and should have been cognisent on Irvings part, to immediately engage the government for those future improvement needs soon thereafter to keep the ball rolling many years ago. If you are saying Ted that Irving Shipyard bears no responsibility what-so-ever for their un-proactive performance in getting these ships built, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.(n)
Pretty hard to include technical upgrades when the size of what they were actually building and they did not as of yet know what design as it wasn't even chosen yet. Like I already said it was only a few years ago that Irving discovered that they would have to upgrade. That was communicated to the government at that time. The fact that they are now in negotiations and in the public eye is to put pressure on the government. As for your comment that Irving bears no responsibility, well the government prioritized the AOPS build so there's that, the government dragged their feet on the requirements and added requirements causing delays. Even the fact they are in negotiations means that they will be paying, no-one knows just how much.
 

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Pretty hard to include technical upgrades when the size of what they were actually building and they did not as of yet know what design as it wasn't even chosen yet. Like I already said it was only a few years ago that Irving discovered that they would have to upgrade. That was communicated to the government at that time. The fact that they are now in negotiations and in the public eye is to put pressure on the government. As for your comment that Irving bears no responsibility, well the government prioritized the AOPS build so there's that, the government dragged their feet on the requirements and added requirements causing delays. Even the fact they are in negotiations means that they will be paying, no-one knows just how much.
"it was only a few years ago that Irving discovered that they would have to upgrade"
Irving knew what design they would build for the RCN in 2018 when the BAE Type 26 Frigate design was selected by the government. Those "four years" would have made a big difference to start building the CSC Frigates much earlier than Mid-2024! Probably about 18 months earlier. Does that period sound familiar? Just enough time for Irving to build its CSC infrastructure before the design phase is completed. IMO I believe there was fault on both sides however I also believe that Irving blew it to the detriment of the RCN......again! :oops:
 
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"it was only a few years ago that Irving discovered that they would have to upgrade"
Irving knew what design they would build for the RCN in 2018 when the BAE Type 26 Frigate design was selected by the government. Those "four years" would have made a big difference to start building the CSC Frigates much earlier than Mid-2024! Probably about 18 months earlier. Does that period sound familiar? Just enough time for Irving to build its CSC infrastructure before the design phase is completed. IMO I believe there was fault on both sides however I also believe that Irving blew it to the detriment of the RCN......again! :oops:
Not sure if your getting it so I'll try and explain again. Irving was selected in 2012 as the shipyard for the NSS and contingent of that the shipyard had to make upgrades as specified in the NSS contract that included the combat package. Like you said the design wasn't selected until 2018. Up until then the shipyard had no idea of the design and assumed rightly so it would be a less complicated ship and much smaller as indicated by procurement Canada. The government decided to build an all compassing ship and now the new design called for modification to the existing facilities to build and streamline the production and much of that was based on lessons learned for the type 26 build currently underway in the UK.
Try as you might the shipyard can't predict the future and carried out the yard modifications as dictated by the government at the time. Really I'm not sure what your getting at with the four years but the AOPS would still have to have been built, the design still have to be selected and the ship still designed. This is not about building the CSC's faster but who bears responsibility for paying for the upgrades. The upgrades still would have to be built at the end of of the AOPS build as you can't do it while the project is underway. If anything the delays with the AOPS project is what put back the CSC build behind. There is not many shipbuilding projects that doesn't suffer delays.
 

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Not sure if your getting it so I'll try and explain again. Irving was selected in 2012 as the shipyard for the NSS and contingent of that the shipyard had to make upgrades as specified in the NSS contract that included the combat package. Like you said the design wasn't selected until 2018. Up until then the shipyard had no idea of the design and assumed rightly so it would be a less complicated ship and much smaller as indicated by procurement Canada. The government decided to build an all compassing ship and now the new design called for modification to the existing facilities to build and streamline the production and much of that was based on lessons learned for the type 26 build currently underway in the UK.
Try as you might the shipyard can't predict the future and carried out the yard modifications as dictated by the government at the time. Really I'm not sure what your getting at with the four years but the AOPS would still have to have been built, the design still have to be selected and the ship still designed. This is not about building the CSC's faster but who bears responsibility for paying for the upgrades. The upgrades still would have to be built at the end of of the AOPS build as you can't do it while the project is underway. If anything the delays with the AOPS project is what put back the CSC build behind. There is not many shipbuilding projects that doesn't suffer delays.
"There is not many shipbuilding projects that doesn't suffer delays"
Yes, I get it that most Canadian shipbuilding projects suffer delays, however these delays would be totally unacceptable for any other government but Canada! If the shipyard upgrads "would still have to be built at the end of the AOPS build" as you say, why has Irving not started those upgrads for the CSC build now and then billed the government later for those upgrades when contracts are signed? Very puzzling, but probably what Irving wanted-"don't spend now up front and delay as long as possible to get more ($$) from the government". Another money grab by Irving Shipyard!👿
 

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"There is not many shipbuilding projects that doesn't suffer delays"
Yes, I get it that most Canadian shipbuilding projects suffer delays, however these delays would be totally unacceptable for any other government but Canada! If the shipyard upgrads "would still have to be built at the end of the AOPS build" as you say, why has Irving not started those upgrads for the CSC build now and then billed the government later for those upgrades when contracts are signed? Very puzzling, but probably what Irving wanted-"don't spend now up front and delay as long as possible to get more ($$) from the government". Another money grab by Irving Shipyard!👿
Unacceptable or not that is the nature of the contract and how they could get these yards involved with the NSS in the first place. Pretty hard to do the upgrades when the building is occupied with the build and fabrication is going on:sneaky: and your puzzled by that fact?🙄🙄 Its seems throughout you have a hate on for Irving and are very biased in you assertions.
 

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Unacceptable or not that is the nature of the contract and how they could get these yards involved with the NSS in the first place. Pretty hard to do the upgrades when the building is occupied with the build and fabrication is going on:sneaky: and your puzzled by that fact?🙄🙄 Its seems throughout you have a hate on for Irving and are very biased in you assertions.
No "real" hate on for Irving Ted. They used to be great at building naval ships. The Halifax class is a prime example, and they were "on budget" to boot! But I am pragmatic when it comes to the CSC Frigate program and want every last Canadian "nickles worth" out of Irving when the CSC Frigates are done (I should be long gone by then). I am more preturbed at LM and the Liberal government for taking so long with the Design Phase of these "Cadillacs", but if we get a great ship out of the agonizingly slow process, then I guess the effort is worth it for the RCN. 🤨
 

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Hello Ted. I believe the issues with Irving being greedy and knowingly being "behind the eight-ball" still exist. We still have no idea what the final CSC Frigate design will "eventually" look like, however one thing is very clear. Irving has always known what the final CSC Frigate hull would look like. Take a look at the UK City class. It has been known for "several" years now what the design length would be (149+ meters); CSC Frigate tonnage weight of 8080 tonnes, so why did Irving not use those figures to anticipate the CSC build and lengthen their yard for CSC construction? I.E. their new Synchrolift build, dockyard dredging and the enclosed shipyard building lengthening should have been completed or near completion by now. As I said before Ted, Irving is not stupid. What some are "glowingly" saying about Irving is complete "Bovine Scathology".;):poop:
 

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Hello Ted. I believe the issues with Irving being greedy and knowingly being "behind the eight-ball" still exist. We still have no idea what the final CSC Frigate design will "eventually" look like, however one thing is very clear. Irving has always known what the final CSC Frigate hull would look like. Take a look at the UK City class. It has been known for "several" years now what the design length would be (149+ meters); CSC Frigate tonnage weight of 8080 tonnes, so why did Irving not use those figures to anticipate the CSC build and lengthen their yard for CSC construction? I.E. their new Synchrolift build, dockyard dredging and the enclosed shipyard building lengthening should have been completed or near completion by now. As I said before Ted, Irving is not stupid. What some are "glowingly" saying about Irving is complete "Bovine Scathology".;):poop:
Wow what a necro post. Well its not just about the hull length but also the superstructure and height of the mast. Coupled together with filling in up to 14 hectares of harbor which they need permission to do so. Keep in mind as well originally they thought they would be building one CSC at a time. During the AOPS build it was decided to raise and lengthen the assembly building to allow two CSCs to be worked on at a time in an assembly line to speed up production.
 

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Wow what a necro post. Well its not just about the hull length but also the superstructure and height of the mast. Coupled together with filling in up to 14 hectares of harbor which they need permission to do so. Keep in mind as well originally they thought they would be building one CSC at a time. During the AOPS build it was decided to raise and lengthen the assembly building to allow two CSCs to be worked on at a time in an assembly line to speed up production.
Ted, the height of the CSCs mast has absolutely nothing to do with the "price of tea in China" as the mast can be fitted after each CSC has been welded together and towed outside on to your , "yet to be built" syncrolift in the beautiful Halifax air, so your assumption of a mast being fitted inside the assembly building is incorrect. The "filliing in" of 14 hectares of Halifax harbour would be a Federal government (environmental impact studies) decision which Irving should have already received permission to do. If they haven't as of yet, blame that on the Feds and not Irving! 😄
 

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Ted, the height of the CSCs mast has absolutely nothing to do with the "price of tea in China" as the mast can be fitted after each CSC has been welded together and towed outside on to your , "yet to be built" syncrolift in the beautiful Halifax air, so your assumption of a mast being fitted inside the assembly building is incorrect. The "filliing in" of 14 hectares of Halifax harbour would be a Federal government (environmental impact studies) decision which Irving should have already received permission to do. If they haven't as of yet, blame that on the Feds and not Irving! 😄
It all depends how you assemble the warship and the documents I have seen the height of the building will be changed. You seem to have something out for Irving I guess, probably be because they don't run all their decisions by you I wager.
 

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It all depends how you assemble the warship and the documents I have seen the height of the building will be changed. You seem to have something out for Irving I guess, probably be because they don't run all their decisions by you I wager.
Ted: I do not have "something out for Irving" as you surmise. Look, Irving is a great world-class shipyard and what they are trying to do is protect their interests and the interests of their shareholders. I get that, however, what you and I are trying to accomplish (I hope) is to protect the interests of the RCN and its sailors who will have to sail on these "cadillacs" for the next few decades or so. What I say is how I feel and nothing more. These are my own opinions only and I can live with whatever happens to these world-class Frigates. However what I cannot live with are people trying to say that everything is "rosey" when we both know that some hard decisions will have to be made on this CSC Frigate program, and very soon. I think I need a "Timmies" now! Cheers! ;) :coffee:
 
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Done Deal! This is great news as these enhancements are integral to the CSC project and ultimately will decrease build time with some modules being built offsite and transported to ISI for final assembly. It seems these enhancements were from lessons learned from the construction of the type 26, thus unknown by Irving when the original facilities were built.

Government of Canada announces investment in shipbuilding infrastructure for the Canadian Surface Combatant​


CNW Group
Tue, August 8, 2023 at 12:09 PM ADT·4 min read


GATINEAU, QC, Aug. 8, 2023 /CNW/ - Through the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS), the Government of Canada is revitalizing the Royal Canadian Navy's (RCN) surface fleet of ships to ensure that members have the equipment needed to do their jobs and protect Canadians.

Today, the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, on behalf of the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement, announced that the Government of Canada is investing in the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) project's infrastructure to enhance and accelerate CSC construction, ensuring timely delivery to the RCN. This investment is expected to create or maintain over 800 jobs annually across various industries in the Canadian economy during the work period. The CSC project is one of the largest, most complex shipbuilding initiatives undertaken by the Government of Canada.

Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Department of National Defence, has amended its definition contract with Irving Shipbuilding Inc. (ISI) for an additional $463 million for the CSC project (including taxes). This investment will enhance the efficiency of ship construction while improving project costs and delivering best value for Canadians.

The enhancements at ISI will expand and modify their site and facilities at the Halifax Shipyard and supporting facilities at Woodside Industries and Marine Fabricators in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

The Government of Canada's NSS is a long-term, multi-billion-dollar program focused on renewing the Canadian Coast Guard and RCN fleets to ensure that Canada's marine agencies have the modern ships they need to fulfill their missions, while revitalizing Canada's marine industry, creating good middle-class jobs and ensuring economic benefits are realized across the country.
Contracts under the NSS are estimated to have contributed approximately $21.26 billion ($1.93 billion annually) to Canada's gross domestic product, and created or maintained over 18,000 jobs annually between 2012 and 2022.

Quotes
"Our government is committed to renewing the Royal Canadian Navy's fleets, while maximizing economic benefits for the country as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy. This investment will further ensure that the Canadian Surface Combatant vessels are built efficiently and on time for Royal Canadian Navy members."

The Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos
Minister of Public Services and Procurement

"This key announcement reaffirms Canada's commitment to deliver 15 state-of-the-art warships to the Royal Canadian Navy, and to provide Canadian Armed Forces members with the equipment needed to defend Canada. This investment will expand shipbuilding and support facilities on our East Coast – boosting and accelerating the capacity of our industry partners to deliver new ships to our Navy. Our government will continue to make landmark investments in our military, while supporting good jobs for Canadians."

The Honourable Bill Blair
Minister of National Defence

"Today's announcement will improve critical project infrastructure to enhance and accelerate construction of the Canadian Surface Combatant. Through the National Shipbuilding Strategy, our government is helping to restore our shipyards, rebuild our marine industry and create good Canadian jobs, while ensuring our sovereignty and protecting our interests at home and abroad. "

The Honourable Sean Fraser
Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

"Our government's National Shipbuilding Strategy ensures that Canada has world-class shipbuilding facilities. With this investment, we're putting our vision into action by providing the Royal Canadian Navy with next-generation capabilities, while supporting and creating high-value jobs in Canada's marine industry and the broader marine supply chain across Canada."

The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne
Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry

Quick facts
  • The CSC project is part of the NSS, a long-term, multi-billion-dollar program to renew the Canadian Coast Guard and RCN fleets, while creating good middle-class jobs across the country and revitalizing Canada's marine industry.

  • The CSC project is the largest and most complex shipbuilding initiative in Canada since World War II.

  • In support of Canada's defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada committed to acquiring 15 CSC ships that will replace the Halifax-class frigates and the retired Iroquois-class destroyers. With these ships, the RCN will have modern and capable vessels to monitor and defend Canada's waters, continue contributing to international naval operations for decades to come, and rapidly deploy capable naval forces worldwide.

  • The amendment to the CSC definition contract with ISI will initiate enhancements to the shipyard's infrastructure.

  • These enhancements were identified during the design phase and from lessons learned during the construction of ships in the United Kingdom and Australia, which are also based on the same Type 26 model as the CSC.

  • The start of construction activities on the CSC vessels is anticipated to begin in 2024, with full-rate production to begin under the implementation contract in 2025. Ship delivery is expected to begin in the early 2030s and be completed by 2050.



 

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Done Deal! This is great news as these enhancements are integral to the CSC project and ultimately will decrease build time with some modules being built offsite and transported to ISI for final assembly. It seems these enhancements were from lessons learned from the construction of the type 26, thus unknown by Irving when the original facilities were built.

Government of Canada announces investment in shipbuilding infrastructure for the Canadian Surface Combatant​


CNW Group
Tue, August 8, 2023 at 12:09 PM ADT·4 min read


GATINEAU, QC, Aug. 8, 2023 /CNW/ - Through the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS), the Government of Canada is revitalizing the Royal Canadian Navy's (RCN) surface fleet of ships to ensure that members have the equipment needed to do their jobs and protect Canadians.

Today, the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, on behalf of the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement, announced that the Government of Canada is investing in the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) project's infrastructure to enhance and accelerate CSC construction, ensuring timely delivery to the RCN. This investment is expected to create or maintain over 800 jobs annually across various industries in the Canadian economy during the work period. The CSC project is one of the largest, most complex shipbuilding initiatives undertaken by the Government of Canada.

Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Department of National Defence, has amended its definition contract with Irving Shipbuilding Inc. (ISI) for an additional $463 million for the CSC project (including taxes). This investment will enhance the efficiency of ship construction while improving project costs and delivering best value for Canadians.

The enhancements at ISI will expand and modify their site and facilities at the Halifax Shipyard and supporting facilities at Woodside Industries and Marine Fabricators in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

The Government of Canada's NSS is a long-term, multi-billion-dollar program focused on renewing the Canadian Coast Guard and RCN fleets to ensure that Canada's marine agencies have the modern ships they need to fulfill their missions, while revitalizing Canada's marine industry, creating good middle-class jobs and ensuring economic benefits are realized across the country.
Contracts under the NSS are estimated to have contributed approximately $21.26 billion ($1.93 billion annually) to Canada's gross domestic product, and created or maintained over 18,000 jobs annually between 2012 and 2022.

Quotes
"Our government is committed to renewing the Royal Canadian Navy's fleets, while maximizing economic benefits for the country as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy. This investment will further ensure that the Canadian Surface Combatant vessels are built efficiently and on time for Royal Canadian Navy members."

The Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos
Minister of Public Services and Procurement

"This key announcement reaffirms Canada's commitment to deliver 15 state-of-the-art warships to the Royal Canadian Navy, and to provide Canadian Armed Forces members with the equipment needed to defend Canada. This investment will expand shipbuilding and support facilities on our East Coast – boosting and accelerating the capacity of our industry partners to deliver new ships to our Navy. Our government will continue to make landmark investments in our military, while supporting good jobs for Canadians."

The Honourable Bill Blair
Minister of National Defence

"Today's announcement will improve critical project infrastructure to enhance and accelerate construction of the Canadian Surface Combatant. Through the National Shipbuilding Strategy, our government is helping to restore our shipyards, rebuild our marine industry and create good Canadian jobs, while ensuring our sovereignty and protecting our interests at home and abroad. "

The Honourable Sean Fraser
Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

"Our government's National Shipbuilding Strategy ensures that Canada has world-class shipbuilding facilities. With this investment, we're putting our vision into action by providing the Royal Canadian Navy with next-generation capabilities, while supporting and creating high-value jobs in Canada's marine industry and the broader marine supply chain across Canada."

The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne
Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry

Quick facts
  • The CSC project is part of the NSS, a long-term, multi-billion-dollar program to renew the Canadian Coast Guard and RCN fleets, while creating good middle-class jobs across the country and revitalizing Canada's marine industry.

  • The CSC project is the largest and most complex shipbuilding initiative in Canada since World War II.

  • In support of Canada's defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada committed to acquiring 15 CSC ships that will replace the Halifax-class frigates and the retired Iroquois-class destroyers. With these ships, the RCN will have modern and capable vessels to monitor and defend Canada's waters, continue contributing to international naval operations for decades to come, and rapidly deploy capable naval forces worldwide.

  • The amendment to the CSC definition contract with ISI will initiate enhancements to the shipyard's infrastructure.

  • These enhancements were identified during the design phase and from lessons learned during the construction of ships in the United Kingdom and Australia, which are also based on the same Type 26 model as the CSC.

  • The start of construction activities on the CSC vessels is anticipated to begin in 2024, with full-rate production to begin under the implementation contract in 2025. Ship delivery is expected to begin in the early 2030s and be completed by 2050.



This is certainly great news for the NSS, RCN and Irving Shipbuilding! Hopefully it will spur Irving to start construction on the Yard upgrades sooner rather than later with Land reclaimation, the ship Building height increases, New Syncrolift for the CSC build and hopefully fight back on some of these delays! A good day for Canada and the RCN!! In an RCN world where there has been nothing to cheer about lately, this is good news! Cheers Ted! :):giggle:(y)
 

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