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Nilgiri

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I wonder what the most knowledgeable member of the forum on the subject thinks?

@Nilgiri ?

I expect relations to decline officially for a while....while India focuses on handling Canada matters (be it trade or relations) through the US anyway. The US is economy and military power of far greater consequence.

Trudeau and the liberals have a deliberate policy to vote bank with the Sikh minority, including its fringe elements.

They are angry that the larger sikh population in India is well integrated and moving forward with the larger country after the troubles of the 1980s and 1990s.

For example, the Sikh CM of Punjab in India (at the time, Capt Amarinder Singh, member of congress opposition party at the time to BJP centre govt) overtly said he would not meet the liberal cabinet member (defence minister at the time) Harjit Sajjan and that he was not welcome in Punjab, given his association with Khalistan fringe elements previously.

It will take time for rest of Indian diaspora in Canada to consolidate to the conservative party in response if the party even makes that overture to begin with to separate from liberals on this.

With the liberals though this issue has exerted into foreign policy deterioration over time with India....the Air India bombing terrible case handling by Canada in the 1990s (given India was far weaker country then) already left a severe strain in relations.

Relations were getting better under the Harper administration for example, now all thrown away by the liberals.

Given institutional capture and draconian application by the liberals and NDP on more conservative or even centrist canadians increasingly on a number of issues....the liberals will be made to know over time that their hypocrisy and delusion has consequences by their own population with time.

This includes terrorist separatists being given refuge, protection and unfair rehabilitation in the country while they try initiate terrorism and separatism back in India.... just to satisfy liberal vote bank. Large number of Canadians do not support this double standard in action by liberal party (that they try to assert whole of Canada behind them).

India can wait it out:


 

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Damn, if it is true then this is very dumb on India's part. Let’s see how this unfold. Usually West takes these things seriously.

These Khalistani folks massacred tens of thousands Muslims during partition, but guess what?, they have been getting test of their own medicine since then.

Just by looking at them i appreciate once again my national identity and sovereignty. The ultimate losers of the 20th century are those ethnicities who didn’t have the chance to self determination in the global South.
 

Nilgiri

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Damn, if it is true then this is very dumb on India's part. Let’s see how this unfold. Usually West takes these things seriously.

Yeah like the 100 times greater drama between KSA and the US, be it 9/11 or Kashoggi... and now Biden all pals with MBS again.
Super serious stance, things never blew over or will blow over.

Canada also never did a dumb things on its part regarding this right?

These Khalistani folks massacred tens of thousands Muslims during partition, but guess what?, they have been getting test of their own medicine since then.
It was one-way? Muslims engaged in a number of massacres. Anyone can read partition from beginning to end, or the backdrop previous to it regarding the formation of Sikh religion during Mughal rule that were harnessed by bad actors of both sides in precarious upheaval situation.

India should have said, let the East Bengalis get "taste of their own medicine" for Noakhali and Direct Action Day in 1971?

The perpetrators in 1971 should be called a "Muslim army"? (Something they called themselves a number of times and still do).

Why would larger Sikh experience in partition be some wholly Khalistani one? Plenty of non-Khalistani sikhs faced and dished out horrors in partition.

Don't bark up this tree.

Just by looking at them i appreciate once again my national identity and sovereignty. The ultimate losers of the 20th century are those ethnicities who didn’t have the chance to self determination in the global South.

Your insinuating tone is frankly ridiculous.

You first declare for yourself here among the Turkish members (since they are largest group in this forum) what "didn't have the chance to self determination" means w.r.t Turkish large ethnic minority in its modern republic....and they being some ultimate loser.

Otherwise don't extend that to India. We know our country and nation the best, it is topic for us, not you. I know myself firsthand the physical angry reaction some have when they see Sikh integration and representation across gamut of Indian endeavour and public life.

We will discuss it with foreigners only if they are consistent on principle and approach with good faith intent.

We know very well what voter participation is like in all our states in the republic's greatest sound institution. The trust they repose there and its sound functioning for a developing country.

We know very well what this critical institution is like in neighbouring countries, whatever homogeneity they may espouse, ethnic or otherwise.
 

Afif

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Yeah like the 100 times greater drama between KSA and the US, be it 9/11 or Kashoggi... and now Biden all pals with MBS again.
Super serious stance, things never blew over or will blow over.

Well, i would classify what happen with khasoggi murder and its aftermath as realtively significant and consequential.

It was one-way? Muslims engaged in a number of massacres. Anyone can read partition from beginning to end, or the backdrop previous to it regarding the formation of Sikh religion during Mughal rule that were harnessed by bad actors of both sides in precarious upheaval situation

Where did I say it was one way?
It wasn't one way, but people mostly remember the victims on their sides.

India should have said, let the East Bengalis get "taste of their own medicine" for Noakhali and Direct Action Day in 1971?

Nope.

Why would larger Sikh experience in partition be some wholly Khalistani one? Plenty of non-Khalistani sikhs faced and dished out horrors in partition.

Where did I say larger Sikh experience is Khalistani one? Or did I say, all Sikh were guilty?
Yes they did.

Your insinuating tone is frankly ridiculous.

You first declare for yourself here among the Turkish members (since they are largest group in this forum) what "didn't have the chance to self determination" means w.r.t Turkish large ethnic minority in its modern republic....and they being some ultimate loser.

Otherwise don't extend that to India. We know our country and nation the best, it is topic for us, not you. I know myself firsthand the physical angry reaction some have when they see Sikh integration and representation across gamut of Indian endeavour and public life.

We will discuss it with foreigners only if they are consistent on principle and approach with good faith intent.

We know very well what voter participation is like in all our states in the republic's greatest sound institution. The trust they repose there and its sound functioning for a developing country.

We know very well what this critical institution is like in neighbouring countries, whatever homogeneity they may espouse, ethnic or otherwise.

Your whole deduction is wrong.

it has very little to do with India or (even with Turkey) in particular.

This is my general observation regardless of any nationality and ethnicity. 'Ultimate loser' is in the historic sense that they couldn't get the chance for self-determination.
(Just fo you know, That would even include the people who wanted independence in the chottogram hill track.) That does not necessarily mean they are continously suffering or still being brutally oppressed. In fact, they could be relatively well integrated in larger societies. But that does not negate historic fact that they didn't get right to self determination 50/70 years ago.

Also I used global South for a reason. Because in the global north it seems to work out Relatively well. Breakup of Soviet union. (Bloodless) And even very recently, Scottish independence referendum. Which was quite exceptional. Something like that is almost unthinkable in the global South.
 
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Nilgiri

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Breakup of Soviet union. (Bloodless)

In hindsight it hasn't turned out that way. USSR breakup residual is a major factor in current Russia-Ukraine war (and the conflict that built up before it).

I don't like global north or south (just like I never liked First vs Third world).

I just prefer developing world vs developed world with caveat there are lot of institutions still developing or even deteriorating and backsliding in whole host of countries that are economically more developed.

That is exactly what we see in Russia for example, the institutional capacity is not comprehensive one relative to its power in other areas. They have been severely lacking in all the (especially large) post USSR countries in general....i.e Ukraine as well.

Thanks for your clarification upon the other issues.

We will see how it goes between Canada and India.

Canada would be on much firmer footing if it treated the Air India bombing with the seriousness it deserved.

I do not see what kind of evidence they will give regarding Indian involvement in assassination of this guy that will be accepted by India. So there will just be impasse till things move past it...among things that already don't really get affected between the two sides to begin with.

International relations is like this always.
 

Afif

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Canada would be on much firmer footing if it treated the Air India bombing with the seriousness it deserved.

I wasn't aware of what happened until you mentioned it. So my knowledge goes as far as Wikipedia.

It looks like thriller style mess up on Canadian intelligence side (CSIS)
(But of course I can't determine how much of its true)

However, it mentioned there was a security intelligence Review committee and it cleared them (CSIS) any intentional wrong doing?

But you probbaly think there was a cover up, is it like that?
 

Nilgiri

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I wasn't aware of what happened until you mentioned it. So my knowledge goes as far as Wikipedia.

It looks like thriller style mess up on Canadian intelligence side (CSIS)
(But of course I can't determine how much of its true)

However, it mentioned there was a security intelligence Review committee and it cleared them (CSIS) any intentional wrong doing?

But you probbaly think there was a cover up, is it like that?

There was an elitist even racist double standard at play in its core, w.r.t the victims involved (i.e mostly Canadian citizens who were Indian origin etc).

i.e it is fairly open discussed topic (even and maybe especially within Canada, though maybe not in official media much) how the exact same of events and tragedy investigation and prosecution would have gone if the victims were White majority Canadians.

Canada has changed a lot since (definitely becoming more broadly socially inclusive etc for minorities) just like it has changed markedly since the severe discrimination it (govt intensely but larger society to some collective degree) enforced upon the aboriginal tribes earlier in the 19th and 20th centuries....but there was always accountability given on these matters recently that has been lacking with the AI bombing one given intense (but privileged as in removed from the churn of original source tensions for this matter) political landscape in Canada.

However much the wrong doing/extreme mishandling (and severe lack of crown prosecution standard to begin with) was intentional vs non-intentional....to me does not address the post-accountability and taking responsibility for failure and making serious re-addressal for it. Otherwise why would say manslaughter even be prosecuted in legal system (compared to say murder) to begin with if simply (lack of) intent can be used to lessen its criminal negligence aspect. That leaves aside the degrees of intent that make up the 3 degrees of murder (hazy general intent, intent developed spontaneously but not premeditated, and then premeditated being the most serious one iirc)

You have posted from the print before and I think you hold them in sufficient credible regard overall, so I will post these here and you can look up any further details as relevant:


 

Marlii

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There have been rumblings in Ottawa well before the PMs visit to India and more than likely this subject was broached by PM Trudeau to the Indian PM on his recent visit to India as well. CISIS normallly has a very good handling on these investigation so if the PM says it has credible evidence of this unlawful murder by Indian agents, you can probably bet there is a lot of truth to it. Somebody on the Indian side of things will have to be brought to pay for their deeds with Canadian justice that's for sure! This will only exacerbate the already tense relations between India & Canada. We have not heard the last of this file you can be sure! The fallout will fall heavily on somebodys shoulders for sure.:mad:
As if india is gonna accept any evidence Canada is gonna bring up and say " oh we have been a very naughty boy here take our hitmen and let him go through the Canadian justice system 😆 At best this is gonna end in a tit for tat with the expulsion of a Canadian diplomat .I knew something like this is gonna happen when I saw what was happening in the G20 when Trudeau took that L
 

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Khalistani movement seems to have had a safe haven in Canada for decades.

Either backed by Canada or Canada turned a blind eye to it.

India does not tolerate separatist movements. This is pretty natural reaction to every country who has separatist problems.
 

Nilgiri

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Khalistani movement seems to have had a safe haven in Canada for decades.

Either backed by Canada or Canada turned a blind eye to it.

India does not tolerate separatist movements. This is pretty natural reaction to every country who has separatist problems.

Just got into a long heated discussion with some western "libs" elsewhere on all of this.

The typical smarmy hypocrite attitude, its disgusting.

They also inevitably bring up "Erdogan authoritarianism" in dealing with Gulen/FETO and PKK etc etc, that it is all bad and all these 3rd worlders are bad, violent, fascist etc etc and that these separatist-terrorist groups should be protected no matter what crime they get involved with in name of "free speech protection".

All so they can virtue signal past what kind of massacres and oppressions were inflicted in Canada, US, Europe etc and the larger colonial enterprise past that.

These people just don't understand some basic things in the end....they are entirely tone deaf to their own govts complicit dealings and nurturing of these dens of vipers in their own soil. The Air India bombing really kind of sealed the deal for me in grievous trust deficit I have with Canadian govt here on this matter....it was botched incredibly badly, some parts of it likely on purpose.

I mean theres a whole criminal gang enterprise in the PKK sympathisers in Europe that I have read about at some length on this very forum from time to time. The same kind of thing exists with Khalistanis in North America. Even with white people earlier there was a whole nasty thing that went on with Boston politics and Irish nationalist gangs and so on.

A lot of things are tolerated and then festered when you make distance from the source of the problem, even when the home country has moved on from it all. I think we all understand this phenomenon in general way (yes things linger on longer for various reasons when there is axe to grind and grievance sustained overseas).

But the problem is when establishment of some place doubles down selectively and then decides it can posture and look strong by deliberately pushing elements to try weaken another country.....and pretend this can just keep going with no rebound....because they are high and mighty.....and the other is low and weak. It is a elitism/racism found quite deep in the Western privileged types I have found.

That is why I 100% understand why Turkiye is consolidated and united in what it has to do in confronting its own separatists and their networking they have spread in Europe especially to tug on heart and purse strings of these "activist" elitists/politicians in countries there.

You guys know it very intensely as well, I have read the conversations on this forum more than I did when we were in PDF etc.
 

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Just got into a long heated discussion with some western "libs" elsewhere on all of this.

The typical smarmy hypocrite attitude, its disgusting.

They also inevitably bring up "Erdogan authoritarianism" in dealing with Gulen/FETO and PKK etc etc, that it is all bad and all these 3rd worlders are bad, violent, fascist etc etc and that these separatist-terrorist groups should be protected no matter what crime they get involved with in name of "free speech protection".

All so they can virtue signal past what kind of massacres and oppressions were inflicted in Canada, US, Europe etc and the larger colonial enterprise past that.

These people just don't understand some basic things in the end....they are entirely tone deaf to their own govts complicit dealings and nurturing of these dens of vipers in their own soil. The Air India bombing really kind of sealed the deal for me in grievous trust deficit I have with Canadian govt here on this matter....it was botched incredibly badly, some parts of it likely on purpose.

I mean theres a whole criminal gang enterprise in the PKK sympathisers in Europe that I have read about at some length on this very forum from time to time. The same kind of thing exists with Khalistanis in North America. Even with white people earlier there was a whole nasty thing that went on with Boston politics and Irish nationalist gangs and so on.

A lot of things are tolerated and then festered when you make distance from the source of the problem, even when the home country has moved on from it all. I think we all understand this phenomenon in general way (yes things linger on longer for various reasons when there is axe to grind and grievance sustained overseas).

But the problem is when establishment of some place doubles down selectively and then decides it can posture and look strong by deliberately pushing elements to try weaken another country.....and pretend this can just keep going with no rebound....because they are high and mighty.....and the other is low and weak. It is a elitism/racism found quite deep in the Western privileged types I have found.

That is why I 100% understand why Turkiye is consolidated and united in what it has to do in confronting its own separatists and their networking they have spread in Europe especially to tug on heart and purse strings of these "activist" elitists/politicians in countries there.

You guys know it very intensely as well, I have read the conversations on this forum more than I did when we were in PDF etc.

Crazy thing is Sri Lanka actually told Australia numerous times to stop turning a blind eye to Tamil Tigers who found Australia a safe haven.

In Australia events in Sri Lanka we most likely turned a blind eye to it because it did not affect us.

Another crazy thing it was pretty common for separatists who found safe haven to get assasinated by the countries agents.

In Turkiye basically had numerous agents even using the Turkish mafia to hit Pkk and Asala targets who were living in numerous European countries.

So many Turkish diplomats got assasinated by Armenian separatist terrorists. Bro in Melbourne they nearly caused a 911 attack by targeting the Turkish consulate.

Khalistani movements committed numerous terrorist attacks lots of it came from funding in safe havens they were living in. Its a natural reaction for India to react against separatists who threatened the integrity of the nation.

Pakistan also does the same thing.

Usa also drone Striked Anwar Al Awlaki for not just being a terrorist but for commiting treason. I never heard any kind of outrage against the USA.

I dont think Canada has moral imperative to lecture anybody especially regarding the terrorist attack which brought down a Air India passenger plane which mostly killed Indian citizens.
 
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Ryder

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@Nilgiri another issue most terrorists actually swapped bombings and killing by wrapping it with activism.

Pkk and Asala went from bombings and killings to wrapping it with "activism".
 

Nilgiri

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I dont think Canada has moral imperative to lecture anybody especially regarding the terrorist attack which brought down a Air India passenger plane which mostly killed Indian citizens.

They were actually mostly Canadian citizens (Indian origin), which made the whole investigation and prosecution process take on a racist/elitist hue to it in that it wasn't handled with same standards (to say the least) that would have happened if the victims were say mostly white-Canadian.

It was not really viewed as a Canadian tragedy....and justice was not served (there was ridiculous stuff going on like tapes of phone calls suddenly being erased that had all the evidence of the main perpetrators - almost all of which walked free).

Anyway it is somewhat of an equivalent to how PKK established itself and also tried to project itself as speaking for all Kurds to push legitimacy in whichever ABC groups/fronts it started in western countries that gave such extremists safe harbour....and then this all feeds back to the violence commited back in Turkiye all the time and death toll it left in its wake. You know of course how bad it got in 80s and 90s for Turkiye especially.

Like would India accept a collective alliance with Canada given what it harbours and double down upon? I dont think so, so I understood the reluctance to let Sweden into NATO by Turkiye and getting some concessions on extradition etc first by Erdogan admin.

You bring up LTTE, trust me I know the LTTE problem in western shores being Tamil myself (Indian one and strongly against them). They also cooperated a lot with PKK, IRA and others like that as these were all fellow "left wing marxist" groups.

I posted a video somewhere in this forum where an IRA march in Ireland was carrying PKK flags as well in solidarity. Its ridiculous what these groups with blood on their hands are all allowed to get up to in countries that host them.

Anyway only way in end is to get big and strong as possible.....otherwise all these countries just keep treating you as pushover to feel good about themselves and continue the delusional approach to all of this just because "they can"....rather than ask if "they should".
 

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They were actually mostly Canadian citizens (Indian origin), which made the whole investigation and prosecution process take on a racist/elitist hue to it in that it wasn't handled with same standards (to say the least) that would have happened if the victims were say mostly white-Canadian.

It was not really viewed as a Canadian tragedy....and justice was not served (there was ridiculous stuff going on like tapes of phone calls suddenly being erased that had all the evidence of the main perpetrators - almost all of which walked free).

Anyway it is somewhat of an equivalent to how PKK established itself and also tried to project itself as speaking for all Kurds to push legitimacy in whichever ABC groups/fronts it started in western countries that gave such extremists safe harbour....and then this all feeds back to the violence commited back in Turkiye all the time and death toll it left in its wake. You know of course how bad it got in 80s and 90s for Turkiye especially.

Like would India accept a collective alliance with Canada given what it harbours and double down upon? I dont think so, so I understood the reluctance to let Sweden into NATO by Turkiye and getting some concessions on extradition etc first by Erdogan admin.

You bring up LTTE, trust me I know the LTTE problem in western shores being Tamil myself (Indian one and strongly against them). They also cooperated a lot with PKK, IRA and others like that as these were all fellow "left wing marxist" groups.

I posted a video somewhere in this forum where an IRA march in Ireland was carrying PKK flags as well in solidarity. Its ridiculous what these groups with blood on their hands are all allowed to get up to in countries that host them.

Anyway only way in end is to get big and strong as possible.....otherwise all these countries just keep treating you as pushover to feel good about themselves and continue the delusional approach to all of this just because "they can"....rather than ask if "they should".

Abdullah Ocalan was even housed by many of Turkiye's own allies even given a passport.

Whole shit was a scandal.

As much we critise Israel in Turkish politics they did not even go as low to house pkk terrorists and their leaders.
 

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Hello Marlii. Accept real evidence or not. It's up to you, however, it happened and it is real! A Canadian citizen, on Canadian soil was murdered by "persons unknown". Now that may not register with you but it is a definate issue with most Canadians here. If the Indian government would just acknowledge the facts and come up with a way to at least appease Canada, that would be a start to stop any 'tit-for-tat" of officials in it's tracks. Canada will never go to any sort of military conflict with India over this, however Canadian-Indian relations have been bruised if not torn apart by this "incident" for a very long time! And that is not what we should be doing as civilized and democratic states! :censored: Cheers!
Dude everyone knows we did it .The moment the news of him being dead was everyone knew who did it .The only fact that is bothers me is the whitewashing the Canadians are doing to this guy.He isn't some activist or political critic like Jamal kashoggi he is an extremist with terrorist ties who actively promotes violence on indian embassies.Many times we have taken this to legal basis which was avoided and don't even get me started on the whole kanishka bombing issue It was public knowledge at that time that terrorists would bomb an airindia plane and indian intelligence even warned it to the Canadian counterparts who happily avoided it
 

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Hello again Marlii. Yes, Canada has known for weeks who was responsible for Hardeep Singh Nijjar's murder, but tried to keep those issues private between governments during the "on-going" trade negotiations with India. When PM Trudeau broached the Indian PM on the subject, Trudeau was given the "cold shoulder" and that's where things really went south during the G20 summit last week. As of now, any trade negotiations with India are at least "on-hold" for now, and possibly for years to come.This is the lowest point of Canadian-Indian relations in decades and will not come back anytime soon. Yes, Hardeep Singh Nijjar was a local Sikh Leader and may have been an activist looking for a new country within India for his people, but he was also a legitimate Canadian citizen entitled to the protections under our laws which all Canadian citizens are entitled to, which he unintentionally gave up with his "untimely" death. Angry.....you haven't seen Canada angry yet and hopefully you never will! If you have nothing more useful to contribute to this conversation, then maybe it would be best to say nothing at all. IMO. Cheers!😠
Well if it was US I would have been little afraid but Canada.Banning indian immigrants is the best you can do.
Sanction us on maple syrup maybe 😆
Or give us a thesis on what is women what is men? Or that we have the right to die .
 

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Dude everyone knows we did it .The moment the news of him being dead was everyone knew who did it .The only fact that is bothers me is the whitewashing the Canadians are doing to this guy.He isn't some activist or political critic like Jamal kashoggi he is an extremist with terrorist ties who actively promotes violence on indian embassies.Many times we have taken this to legal basis which was avoided and don't even get me started on the whole kanishka bombing issue It was public knowledge at that time that terrorists would bomb an airindia plane and indian intelligence even warned it to the Canadian counterparts who happily avoided it
I remembered the incident where the terrorist named Sakine Cansız was shot in Paris.Even though places and names change, some things never change.Let's see how far it will go.The Western Civilization's support for people who prone to terrorism and vandalism , in the name of oppressed minorities.
 
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Hello again Marlii. Yes, Canada has known for weeks who was responsible for Hardeep Singh Nijjar's murder, but tried to keep those issues private between governments during the "on-going" trade negotiations with India.
What has a terrorist's death got to do with trade deals?
When PM Trudeau broached the Indian PM on the subject, Trudeau was given the "cold shoulder" and that's where things really went south during the G20 summit last week.
That's literally what any sane country would do, yesterday an Indian politician was killed in Punjab by canada based terrorists (sponsored and sheltered by Turdeau) and India didn't take this issue up, because we find killing the enemy inside canada much better option than negotiating with clueless leaders of canada.
As of now, any trade negotiations with India are at least "on-hold" for now, and possibly for years to come.
And nobody cares about it, bilateral trade is very miniscule because canada doesn't have much to offer India nor there is much buying capacity being a small country population wise.
This is the lowest point of Canadian-Indian relations in decades and will not come back anytime soon.
Not our fault if canada wants to sponsor terrorism against India by sheltering most wanted criminals and expecting India to respect the bilateral ties.
Yes, Hardeep Singh Nijjar was a local Sikh Leader
Yes, this is how "leaders" look like;
1695131835134.png

and may have been an activist looking for a new country within India for his people,
India too should start an embassy in exile for Canada-occupied Quebec and support those separatists allowing them to carry out terror attacks, suicide bombings, drugs business and targeted killings in canada with our support.
but he was also a legitimate Canadian citizen
LoL what? He was an Indian citizen provided shelter by canada illegally by faking his passport.
1695132131261.png
1695132326641.png

entitled to the protections under our laws which all Canadian citizens are entitled to, which he unintentionally gave up with his "untimely" death.
Indians too are entitled to various rights, some of which are right to life and personal liberty, right to freedom, freedom of speech and so on. If any terrorist dares challenge that, he will be hunted down in his own home by R&AW. It's as simple as that.
Angry.....you haven't seen Canada angry yet and hopefully you never will! If you have nothing more useful to contribute to this conversation, then maybe it would be best to say nothing at all. IMO. Cheers!😠
And what will canada do if it gets angry? Threaten war with a nuclear power like India😂?
 
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