India India - China Relations

[xizhimen]

China doesn't care about Kashmir

China does care, China's border treaty with Pakistan was signed with conditional extra clauses

中巴边界条约具有临时性质，第六条规定：双方同意，在巴基斯坦和印度关于克什米尔的争议获得解决以后，有关的主权当局将就本协定第二条所述的边界，同中国政府重新进行谈判，以签订一个正式的边界条约来代替本协定，该主权当局如系巴基斯坦，则在中国和巴基斯坦将签订的正式边界条约中，应该保持本协定和上述议定书中的规定。

因此也不排除如果将来巴国失势，印度要控制克什米尔的时候，中国会利用这条公路出兵克什米尔，占领部分地区后再和印度重新划界。

The treaty on China's border with Kashmir is tentative, the clause 6 stipuates if the part of Kashmir which borders China always belongs to Pakistan, China will remain bounded by this treaty and won't seek change of the border, but if the ownership of the land and the border changed, China will no longer recognize the treaty and the border needs to be redrawn.

Basically it means that if Pakistan lost its part of Kashmir to India, the border treaty will automatically become invalid and China will demand her part of Kashmir.
If Pakistan lost Kashmir, all the agreements China signed with Pakistan will be off, Kashmir will be re divided.

 

[Jackdaws]

Funny logic, their are China born athletes competing for US in the Olympics, does it mean China accepts China being part of US? Some US born athletes also compete for China, doesn it mean US is part of China?

What citizenship do these hold?

 

[Jackdaws]

China does care, China's border treaty with Pakistan was signed with conditional extra clauses

The China-Pakistan Boundary Treaty is of a provisional nature, and Article 6 stipulates: Both parties agree that after the dispute between Pakistan and India over Kashmir is resolved, the relevant sovereign authorities will renegotiate with the Chinese government on the boundary described in Article 2 of this Agreement. , in place of this Agreement, to conclude a formal boundary treaty, the sovereign authority, in the case of Pakistan, shall maintain the provisions of this Agreement and the aforementioned Protocol in the formal boundary treaty to be concluded between China and Pakistan.

Therefore, it is not ruled out that if Pakistan loses power in the future and India wants to control Kashmir, China will use this road to send troops to Kashmir, occupy some areas and then redraw the border with India.

The treaty on China's border with Kashmir is tentative, the clause 6 stipuates if the part of Kashmir which borders China always belongs to Pakistan, China will remain bounded by this treaty and won't seek change of the border, but if the ownership of the land and the border changed, China will no longer recognize the treaty and the border needs to be redrawn.

Basically it means that if Pakistan loses its part of Kashmir to India, the border treaty will automatically become invalid and China will demand her part of Kashmir.
If Pakistan lost Kashmir, all the agreements China signed with Pakistan will be off, Kashmir will be re divided.

What if China loses part to Afghanistan? Or India? Or occupied Xinjiang or occupied Tibet becomes free?

 

[xizhimen]

What if China loses part to Afghanistan? Or India? Or occupied Xinjiang or occupied Tibet becomes free?

Not in the treaty, the treaty just covers the Kashmir issues. China never totally relinquished her claim over Kashmir region. so if a war broke out there, China will be fighting there too, Kashmir is not just a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India, China is also a party of this issues based on the treaty signed by Pakistan and China.

 

[Huelague]

China doesn't care about Kashmir

They care, because of Pakistan.

 

[xizhimen]

Hunza valley 小勃律 used to be a vassal state of the Chinese empire, out of long term friendship and because of adverse geopolitical environment, China gave up her claim and ceded that region to Pakistan, only on the condition that Pakistan can hold it. China won't allow the region to fall into hostile hands. China still claims ladakh region in Indian occupied Kashmir.
If a war broke out in Kashmir, PLA will at least be fighting in those two regions.

 

[OverTheHorizon]

Basically terrain or environmental deaths.

Chinese could have easily acknowledged they suffered casualties from the terrain nothing embarassing about it.

Galwan or the Ladakh is pretty much a death sentence when you look at the terrain and weather.

Pakistan and India in the siachen glacier conflict most of the soldiers that died, died from the environment and the weather. Pretty hardcore how most died from ice breaking, avalanches, hypothermia and falling to their deaths. Cannot imagine the oxygen too as they went up the peaks

Plus the darkness. some of the scuffle happened in fading light with the soldiers having complete spatial disorientatio. Combine with freezing cold, exhaustion, oxygen deprivation, the soldiers would have become unhinged and probably just ran off the cliffs and fell into the freezing river below. There is every possibility that Chinese being the less experienced high altitude force would have suffered more non-combat hostilities. This idea is further supported by PLA’s quick withdrawal of their formations to much lower altitudes and inability to mount a counter to the Indian Army occupying the peaks on Lake Pangong‘s southern shores.

 

[xizhimen]

China prepares to fight India on 3 fronts, the western front is actually Kashmir region

 

[Jackdaws]

Plus the darkness. some of the scuffle happened in fading light with the soldiers having complete spatial disorientatio. Combine with freezing cold, exhaustion, oxygen deprivation, the soldiers would have become unhinged and probably just ran off the cliffs and fell into the freezing river below. There is every possibility that Chinese being the less experienced high altitude force would have suffered more non-combat hostilities. This idea is further supported by PLA’s quick withdrawal of their formations to much lower altitudes and inability to mount a counter to the Indian Army occupying the peaks on Lake Pangong‘s southern shores.

As I said, inexperienced or not in high altitude warfare, they have the raw materials, money, processes and project management skills to plan, build and execute infrastructure projects along the borders faster than we can.

 

[OverTheHorizon]

As I said, inexperienced or not in high altitude warfare, they have the raw materials, money, processes and project management skills to plan, build and execute infrastructure projects along the borders faster than we can.

Agreed. They built a bridge across the Pangong Tso. Unfortunately india is competing at a time when their economy is 4-5X ours. This is a problem. No political party saw the urgency of having a big economy as a vital need to take on China. This lack of foresight and planning is costing India dearly. Today in several tech areas, Chinese are able to fund R&D to the extent that they can compete with the West at every level. If we do not have moneys, there is a big danger. The problem is India’s citizens are completely unaware of the threats as the stupid politicians have never discussed such things in parliament or loudly advertised to the people, who continue to be dumb as ever.

 

[Jackdaws]

Agreed. They built a bridge across the Pangong Tso. Unfortunately india is competing at a time when their economy is 4-5X ours. This is a problem. No political party saw the urgency of having a big economy as a vital need to take on China. This lack of foresight and planning is costing India dearly. Today in several tech areas, Chinese are able to fund R&D to the extent that they can compete with the West at every level. If we do not have moneys, there is a big danger. The problem is India’s citizens are completely unaware of the threats as the stupid politicians have never discussed such things in parliament or loudly advertised to the people, who continue to be dumb as ever.

True. But after a certain threshold, the size of the economy is no longer relevant. India is at that threshold where there is certainly no dearth of funds. Agreed about the lack of debate and no action over the past several decades.

 

[Nilgiri]

Being steamrolled by the Japanese and having to be rescued?

Seems we have talked about this before heh....

Indeed the "why" almost singularly originates from their patrician class being unable to directly deal any defeat+revenge to Japan and IJA/IJN.

The whole resolution of that came only by the foreigner's action on Japan.

Specifically how they (chinese patricians and some bourgeoisie) were then co-opted and absorbed and re-deployed (and what this indulged, obscured and even silenced in various measures) by the CCP winning out against the ROC on the mainland.

Mao even went so far as to say that without Japan, he would have unlikely been unable to come to power....in a way almost justifying the atrocities inflicted on his people (this was all suppressed during the time to not kick up a fuss on the issue).

This is why Mao's PRC followed a certain distasteful cowardly foreign policy (given many victims were still alive to seek justice) with Japan during the cold war on this issue.

This is the way of the totalitarian, one that would take far more lives than the Japanese ever could or did.

Large parts of the CCP psyche downstream today all stems from the protracted sobering conclusion to the "century of humiliation" without any redemptive final victory (unlike say what the Soviets managed on Berlin) given the gravity of what was inflicted on China.

This is the lingering unique psyche hallmark among PRC leadership class (consciously or subconsciously).

This is precisely why USSR could de-stalinise for example (since final resolution was achieved with massive sacrifice on the aggressor with own hands and own trial and tribulation)...but this is complete anathema to PRC for Mao...as simply there was no transfer of anything relevant to the larger national aegis (like say the WW2 struggle w.r.t USSR) past the leadership cult.


@Viva_vietnamm can tell you about the similar lies promulgated by CCP/PLA with regards to their debacle in 1979 (on Vietnam's border) and the next 10 or so years of border conflict (that often got quite serious).

If we had a legacy but relevantly involved Soviet fella, they could also give similar account of the same set of lies before during and after Ussuri as well.


Overall PRC now is actually far more guarded w.r.t India (at this juncture) as it has lot more to lose now...the increase in ladakh flashpoint intensity was severe miscalculation by them and they are going through a certain style of "going through the motions" to both not escalate it but save face (especially for domestic audience past the journalists + people they squelched on weibo etc already) at same time.

 

[crixus]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489983409803837442

 

[Jackdaws]

Hunza valley 小勃律 used to be a vassal state of the Chinese empire, out of long term friendship and because of adverse geopolitical environment, China gave up her claim and ceded that region to Pakistan, only on the condition that Pakistan can hold it. China won't allow the region to fall into hostile hands. China still claims ladakh region in Indian occupied Kashmir.
If a war broke out in Kashmir, PLA will at least be fighting in those two regions.

What long term friendship? Pakistan was created in 1947. PRC in 1948. In which year did you cede your claim?

 

[xizhimen]

What long term friendship? Pakistan was created in 1947. PRC in 1948. In which year did you cede your claim?

PRC was founded in late 1949, China and Pakistan border treaty was signed in 1963.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

Recently Kashmiri athlete Arif Khan was the only one representing India in Winter Olympics at Beijing. China did not seem to have an issue with it. Earlier they used to staple visas or reject visas of Indian citizens from parts of India.

Is China finally accepting Kashmir as integral part of India?

I think Kashmir stappled visas was resolved long back in 2011-12 itself. China wants to bleed India through Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Is this legit?

If china captured soldiers or even contractors they would use it as a leverage.

But a teenager i wonder why?

You can't do much about a platoon/section level busybody doing something that nobody has told him to do.

 

[Viva_vietnamm]

Seems we have talked about this before heh....

Indeed the "why" almost singularly originates from their patrician class being unable to directly deal any defeat+revenge to Japan and IJA/IJN.

The whole resolution of that came only by the foreigner's action on Japan.

Specifically how they (chinese patricians and some bourgeoisie) were then co-opted and absorbed and re-deployed (and what this indulged, obscured and even silenced in various measures) by the CCP winning out against the ROC on the mainland.

Mao even went so far as to say that without Japan, he would have unlikely been unable to come to power....in a way almost justifying the atrocities inflicted on his people (this was all suppressed during the time to not kick up a fuss on the issue).

This is why Mao's PRC followed a certain distasteful cowardly foreign policy (given many victims were still alive to seek justice) with Japan during the cold war on this issue.

This is the way of the totalitarian, one that would take far more lives than the Japanese ever could or did.

Large parts of the CCP psyche downstream today all stems from the protracted sobering conclusion to the "century of humiliation" without any redemptive final victory (unlike say what the Soviets managed on Berlin) given the gravity of what was inflicted on China.

This is the lingering unique psyche hallmark among PRC leadership class (consciously or subconsciously).

This is precisely why USSR could de-stalinise for example (since final resolution was achieved with massive sacrifice on the aggressor with own hands and own trial and tribulation)...but this is complete anathema to PRC for Mao...as simply there was no transfer of anything relevant to the larger national aegis (like say the WW2 struggle w.r.t USSR) past the leadership cult.


@Viva_vietnamm can tell you about the similar lies promulgated by CCP/PLA with regards to their debacle in 1979 (on Vietnam's border) and the next 10 or so years of border conflict (that often got quite serious).

If we had a legacy but relevantly involved Soviet fella, they could also give similar account of the same set of lies before during and after Ussuri as well.


Overall PRC now is actually far more guarded w.r.t India (at this juncture) as it has lot more to lose now...the increase in ladakh flashpoint intensity was severe miscalculation by them and they are going through a certain style of "going through the motions" to both not escalate it but save face (especially for domestic audience past the journalists + people they squelched on weibo etc already) at same time.

Juts back from Lunar new year. Abt CN, I've posted many times in PDF abt "The True Story of Ah Q". Cnese love living in delusion, no one can change their mind, CNese love bullying the weakers but bowing down to the strongers (like Mongol, JP and US now) and what we should do ? just don't believe CN is "big and strong ", just sit and enjoy watching them die under US's sanctions

--------------------
The story traces the "adventures" of Ah Q, a man from the rural peasant class with little education and no definite occupation. Ah Q is famous for "spiritual victories", Lu Xun's euphemism for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation. Ah Q is a bully to the less fortunate but fearful of those who are above him in rank, strength, or power. He persuades himself mentally that he is spiritually "superior" to his oppressors even as he succumbs to their tyranny and suppression. Lu Xun exposes Ah Q's extreme faults as symptomatic of the Chinese national character of his time. The ending of the piece is equally poignant and satirical.

The True Story of Ah Q - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zapper]

PLA's tactical advantage is clearly visible here

 

[Nilgiri]

Very sad news @Jackdaws et al.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501032610327318536