India Indian Automobile Industry: News & Updates

[Nilgiri]

If it's Mechanical manufacturing even Indian private cos sucks.

I would like to continue a bit along this subject (hence why I split this thread off to new one) as its not a black and white issue after all.

Let us look at an example of one success story to give a bit of contrast to the overall failure (given India's vast size and potential):

Mahindra first got into lot of North American market through its tractor and related products of that size.

But now they have moved to off-road/farm UTV based on the old (licensed under license raj time) willy jeep design and have created quite a successful reliable and popular product in the sector:

UTV not street legal (extra kit needed), and there is trademark/design dispute with Chrysler over Jeep similarity (that chrysler owns rights to exclusively in US) that mahindra lost in arbitration recently, but mahindra working on fixing that now.

But features that have really stood out to me are the RnD involved in especially the brakes and leaf spring suspension with this new development....having driven the old mahindra jeep in India to reference the traditional problems with those (baked in with little competition for 40+ odd years).

They have also adapted quite well to US market, in that the breakdown is roughly 50% import, 50% local by component value of stock builds (I believe assembled in Michigan, not surprising).

Here is example of one where the guy takes (re-sale) delivery of one and plans to make his street legal (his later videos show the upgrade process the goes through):

At end of video (after some use) is a good frank review, he is quite satisfied....he (well his dad) rates it even better than JD Gator.

So what can Indian manufacturing sector and industry consultants learn? What can case studies for say the best folks at IIM etc be?

I would say it has to involve identifying and understanding the mech engg. successfull stories like this one, especially those bought by "salt of the earth" folks in developed markets, since they are in the tough environment and plan to use to maximum etc...and then expand that earned credibility into urban areas etc...

All part of process to then backwork the "why" and "how" part and implementing more of those policies both in automotive and other mech sectors (marine, rail, power etc).

Just like how japanese and koreans did it (robust consumer + supply + policy studies) to fix reliability, improve credibility and then entrench positive USP in mech sector.

@Milspec @ANMDT @#comcom @Gautam @Paro @Joe Shearer @T-123456 @Saithan et al.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would like to continue a bit along this subject (hence why I split this thread off to new one) as its not a black and white issue after all.

Let us look at an example of one success story to give a bit of contrast to the overall failure (given India's vast size and potential):

Mahindra first got into lot of North American market through its tractor and related products of that size.

But now they have moved to off-road/farm UTV based on the old (licensed under license raj time) willy jeep design and have created quite a successful reliable and popular product in the sector:

UTV not street legal (extra kit needed), and there is trademark/design dispute with Chrysler over Jeep similarity (that chrysler owns rights to exclusively in US) that mahindra lost in arbitration recently, but mahindra working on fixing that now.

But features that have really stood out to me are the RnD involved in especially the brakes and leaf spring suspension with this new development....having driven the old mahindra jeep in India to reference the traditional problems with those (baked in with little competition for 40+ odd years).

They have also adapted quite well to US market, in that the breakdown is roughly 50% import, 50% local by component value of stock builds (I believe assembled in Michigan, not surprising).

Here is example of one where the guy takes (re-sale) delivery of one and plans to make his street legal (his later videos show the upgrade process the goes through):

At end of video (after some use) is a good frank review, he is quite satisfied....he (well his dad) rates it even better than JD Gator.

So what can Indian manufacturing sector and industry consultants learn? What can case studies for say the best folks at IIM etc be?

I would say it has to involve identifying and understanding the mech engg. successfull stories like this one, especially those bought by "salt of the earth" folks in developed markets, since they are in the tough environment and plan to use to maximum etc...and then expand that earned credibility into urban areas etc...

All part of process to then backwork the "why" and "how" part and implementing more of those policies both in automotive and other mech sectors (marine, rail, power etc).

Just like how japanese and koreans did it (robust consumer + supply + policy studies) to fix reliability, improve credibility and then entrench positive USP in mech sector.

@Milspec @ANMDT @#comcom @Gautam @Paro @Joe Shearer @T-123456 @Saithan et al.

Wholly agree.

This was based on some original work on an Indian model years before, and M&M had the good sense to take a wide assortment of advice from off-roaders in the specifying and designing stages.

It is still to be found in the forum Team-BHP.

Take-away - ask the potential end-user; you can't go wrong.

 

[Milspec]

I would like to continue a bit along this subject (hence why I split this thread off to new one) as its not a black and white issue after all.

Let us look at an example of one success story to give a bit of contrast to the overall failure (given India's vast size and potential):

Mahindra first got into lot of North American market through its tractor and related products of that size.

But now they have moved to off-road/farm UTV based on the old (licensed under license raj time) willy jeep design and have created quite a successful reliable and popular product in the sector:

UTV not street legal (extra kit needed), and there is trademark/design dispute with Chrysler over Jeep similarity (that chrysler owns rights to exclusively in US) that mahindra lost in arbitration recently, but mahindra working on fixing that now.

But features that have really stood out to me are the RnD involved in especially the brakes and leaf spring suspension with this new development....having driven the old mahindra jeep in India to reference the traditional problems with those (baked in with little competition for 40+ odd years).

They have also adapted quite well to US market, in that the breakdown is roughly 50% import, 50% local by component value of stock builds (I believe assembled in Michigan, not surprising).

Here is example of one where the guy takes (re-sale) delivery of one and plans to make his street legal (his later videos show the upgrade process the goes through):

At end of video (after some use) is a good frank review, he is quite satisfied....he (well his dad) rates it even better than JD Gator.

So what can Indian manufacturing sector and industry consultants learn? What can case studies for say the best folks at IIM etc be?

I would say it has to involve identifying and understanding the mech engg. successfull stories like this one, especially those bought by "salt of the earth" folks in developed markets, since they are in the tough environment and plan to use to maximum etc...and then expand that earned credibility into urban areas etc...

All part of process to then backwork the "why" and "how" part and implementing more of those policies both in automotive and other mech sectors (marine, rail, power etc).

Just like how japanese and koreans did it (robust consumer + supply + policy studies) to fix reliability, improve credibility and then entrench positive USP in mech sector.

@Milspec @ANMDT @#comcom @Gautam @Paro @Joe Shearer @T-123456 @Saithan et al.

I think Sid Lal at Eicher is doing the best work, they truly are on the path to become a global brand with RE>

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think Sid Lal at Eicher is doing the best work, they truly are on the path to become a global brand with RE>

Great work: yes, indeed.

Best: well, that's debatable. My money is on a clutch of Indian companies, Mahindra and Eicher included, who are doing great work. There was a little known metal trader on LME even 40 years ago (yeah, I know), and I used to wonder if they'd survive, and they did. Their predatory mining outlook is disappointing, and that is why they wouldn't be in my A List.

Way back in the day, BHEL was a superb technology bell-wether; I remember a visitor from British Steel coming in and bragging his head off about the technology they had, including hand-held tube coating thickness checking gadgets, and impressing the hell out of us at Tata Steel, till we felt about 2 mm tall; then he was taken to Trichy to see the seamless tube plant that BHEL were running in competition to us, and came back 1 mm tall. Every junior engineer in their coating section had the gadget. But BHEL is gone; the public sector drive and enthusiasm is entirely evaporated, and every engineer wants to join Google.

We need some of our unsung heroes to come in out of obscurity, and they will; it's just that these stories are stories of organic growth. Now tell me: how exciting or dramatic is it to watch a tomato plant grow?

 

[Milspec]

Great work: yes, indeed.

Best: well, that's debatable. My money is on a clutch of Indian companies, Mahindra and Eicher included, who are doing great work. There was a little known metal trader on LME even 40 years ago (yeah, I know), and I used to wonder if they'd survive, and they did. Their predatory mining outlook is disappointing, and that is why they wouldn't be in my A List.

Way back in the day, BHEL was a superb technology bell-wether; I remember a visitor from British Steel coming in and bragging his head off about the technology they had, including hand-held tube coating thickness checking gadgets, and impressing the hell out of us at Tata Steel, till we felt about 2 mm tall; then he was taken to Trichy to see the seamless tube plant that BHEL were running in competition to us, and came back 1 mm tall. Every junior engineer in their coating section had the gadget. But BHEL is gone; the public sector drive and enthusiasm is entirely evaporated, and every engineer wants to join Google.

We need some of our unsung heroes to come in out of obscurity, and they will; it's just that these stories are stories of organic growth. Now tell me: how exciting or dramatic is it to watch a tomato plant grow?

Well Best ( in my opinion ), I can only evaluate what i understand. I dabble a little bit in investing based on fundamentals, I love motorcycles and I come from a mechanical engineering background.
The way I see it, whenever I go to India, I go and talk to a lot of strangers to get a feel for companies I want to invest in.

Few years ago, I hit an auto research jackpot, - the Dhaba. Since then every time I visit,i make sure of going to dhabas and talking to drivers and crews.

From my visit in 2019, the first thing I observed the quality of trucks gotten much better, creature comforts were nicer, and trucks looked much more evolved. When I talked to the drivers and crew about their trucks, there was a bit of hesitation. Not many non-professional drivers come up to drivers and talk about trucks and their opinion about the market. I made it a point of going and talking to the manager or the owner of the Dhaba and arranging few rounds of food and tea for a group, the information you can get of this is pretty nifty. Usually, the truck drivers open up, what I found was astounding. When you talk to these guys, the best trucks in the overall experience, i.e comfort, maintenance, power, service for long-distance haulers are Volvo, Mahindra, tata, and surprisingly no mention of Leyland. Tata has severy quality issues, a lot of truck drives mistake torque for power. Body-building - i.e fabrication of the shell still remains a big business and people are willing to pay the big bucks for the same and do not prefer the plane jane looking style of tractor-trailer type configurations. For short distance haulers the top winners from all my interactions were Eicher, Ashok Leyland, Mahindra, and Swaraj which is liked by all but "woh baat nahi rahi" which means at the end of the product life cycle.

The key observation was Volvo and Eicher trucks both part of the Eicher group in India making it to the top list in all the interactions that I had. The next leg of why I think Eicher is different is because of the interactions I have because of my other interest- motorcycles. When you talk about RE it's always RE's Bullet has been a great brand in India and blah blah blah, I have always thought bullet sucks. Underpowered, no credible changes made, and a clunky design. But the Sid Lal came in. New models started coming, technological changes started happening and it started showing up on balance sheet- Zero Debt motorcycling business, free cash generator for the company, accounts for the highest OPM, and accounts for 20% of the industry profits for the 2 wheeler industry in India. However you cut it, it's quite great. Then came the 650twin, I test drove GT, really like it for what it is, and their market share is just going to go up in the premium segment in India as well they will establish a solid international presence. It's one of the companies that excites me with what they have in store for the future. At this point, I do not think there is a two-wheeler company that is as innovative or creative as RE in its segment in India.

So Eicher with all three brands - Eicher Volvo and RE in my opinion are commanding the number one spot in their segments, That's why I feel Eicher really is the Best business in India at this moment. I am sure Reliance, some specialty chemicals, and online trinket sellers might deliver better numbers than Eicher, but from what I can see and feel, I thought Eicher did really well in the last decade, their stock price showed that I do feel they are poised to do the same for the next 5 years.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well Best ( in my opinion ), I can only evaluate what i understand. I dabble a little bit in investing based on fundamentals, I love motorcycles and I come from a mechanical engineering background.
The way I see it, whenever I go to India, I go and talk to a lot of strangers to get a feel for companies I want to invest in.

Few years ago, I hit an auto research jackpot, - the Dhaba. Since then every time I visit,i make sure of going to dhabas and talking to drivers and crews.

From my visit in 2019, the first thing I observed the quality of trucks gotten much better, creature comforts were nicer, and trucks looked much more evolved. When I talked to the drivers and crew about their trucks, there was a bit of hesitation. Not many non-professional drivers come up to drivers and talk about trucks and their opinion about the market. I made it a point of going and talking to the manager or the owner of the Dhaba and arranging few rounds of food and tea for a group, the information you can get of this is pretty nifty. Usually, the truck drivers open up, what I found was astounding. When you talk to these guys, the best trucks in the overall experience, i.e comfort, maintenance, power, service for long-distance haulers are Volvo, Mahindra, tata, and surprisingly no mention of Leyland. Tata has severy quality issues, a lot of truck drives mistake torque for power. Body-building - i.e fabrication of the shell still remains a big business and people are willing to pay the big bucks for the same and do not prefer the plane jane looking style of tractor-trailer type configurations. For short distance haulers the top winners from all my interactions were Eicher, Ashok Leyland, Mahindra, and Swaraj which is liked by all but "woh baat nahi rahi" which means at the end of the product life cycle.

The key observation was Volvo and Eicher trucks both part of the Eicher group in India making it to the top list in all the interactions that I had. The next leg of why I think Eicher is different is because of the interactions I have because of my other interest- motorcycles. When you talk about RE it's always RE's Bullet has been a great brand in India and blah blah blah, I have always thought bullet sucks. Underpowered, no credible changes made, and a clunky design. But the Sid Lal came in. New models started coming, technological changes started happening and it started showing up on balance sheet- Zero Debt motorcycling business, free cash generator for the company, accounts for the highest OPM, and accounts for 20% of the industry profits for the 2 wheeler industry in India. However you cut it, it's quite great. Then came the 650twin, I test drove GT, really like it for what it is, and their market share is just going to go up in the premium segment in India as well they will establish a solid international presence. It's one of the companies that excites me with what they have in store for the future. At this point, I do not think there is a two-wheeler company that is as innovative or creative as RE in its segment in India.

So Eicher with all three brands - Eicher Volvo and RE in my opinion are commanding the number one spot in their segments, That's why I feel Eicher really is the Best business in India at this moment. I am sure Reliance, some specialty chemicals, and online trinket sellers might deliver better numbers than Eicher, but from what I can see and feel, I thought Eicher did really well in the last decade, their stock price showed that I do feel they are poised to do the same for the next 5 years.

Completely agree with your points.

 

[Nilgiri]

More choices driven by competition in sector:

Royal Enfield plans a slew of launches to protect its turf

As many as 15-20 product actions are under consideration for the coming 3-5 years, and Royal Enfield could potentially launch one motorcycle every quarter during that period, officials told ET.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[Nilgiri]

The world's biggest Electric 2W plant is coming up in the state of Tamil Nadu. It is expected to cost USD 2 Billion.

Paper on the EV outlook in India more generally: https://cp.catapult.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/210318_1020_CPC_India_Report.pdf

Earlier news article on the Ola Factory more specifically:

Ola To Launch World's Largest E-Scooter Factory In Tamil Nadu

Ola's proposed two-wheeler electric vehicle (EV) manufacturing plant will have the capacity to produce 15 per cent of the world's production. The plant is scheduled to be completed in the middle of 2022 in Tamil Nadu's Krishnagiri.

www.india.com

NEW DELHI: Cab aggregator Ola is setting up the world’s largest e-scooter manufacturing unit in India. The plant will come up by 2022 in Tamil Nadu’s Krishnagiri. Ola’s e-scooter plant will be set up in a sprawling 500 acre of land in Krishnagiri. The estimated cost of the proposed plant is Rs 2,400 crore and it will have the capacity to manufacture 1 core or 10 million units per annum, according to media reports.


Ola’s proposed two-wheeler electric vehicle (EV) manufacturing plant will have the capacity to produce 15 per cent of the world’s production. The plant is scheduled to be completed in the middle of 2022; Ola Electric Founder Bhavish Aggarwal was quoted as saying by Economic Times.


The proposed two-wheeler electric vehicle manufacturing plant of Ola will be an integrated establishment. There will be two supplier parks at the plant. Ola will exhort suppliers to set up shops near the plant. The first product from Ola Electric will be rolled off during the summer of 2021. The product is a prototype and has been assembled. The product has been tested extensively, the ET Report says.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has time to time pitched for the use of electric vehicles(EV). PM Modi had said that his government would launch a policy to boost production and exhort the use of EVs.

Meanwhile, Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal-led AAP government has also been promoting the use of electric vehicles (EV). It has said that Kejriwal has the vision to make Delhi the ”Electric Vehicle capital”.

 

[Nilgiri]

I would like to continue a bit along this subject (hence why I split this thread off to new one) as its not a black and white issue after all.

Let us look at an example of one success story to give a bit of contrast to the overall failure (given India's vast size and potential):

Mahindra first got into lot of North American market through its tractor and related products of that size.

But now they have moved to off-road/farm UTV based on the old (licensed under license raj time) willy jeep design and have created quite a successful reliable and popular product in the sector:

UTV not street legal (extra kit needed), and there is trademark/design dispute with Chrysler over Jeep similarity (that chrysler owns rights to exclusively in US) that mahindra lost in arbitration recently, but mahindra working on fixing that now.

But features that have really stood out to me are the RnD involved in especially the brakes and leaf spring suspension with this new development....having driven the old mahindra jeep in India to reference the traditional problems with those (baked in with little competition for 40+ odd years).

They have also adapted quite well to US market, in that the breakdown is roughly 50% import, 50% local by component value of stock builds (I believe assembled in Michigan, not surprising).

Here is example of one where the guy takes (re-sale) delivery of one and plans to make his street legal (his later videos show the upgrade process the goes through):

At end of video (after some use) is a good frank review, he is quite satisfied....he (well his dad) rates it even better than JD Gator.

So what can Indian manufacturing sector and industry consultants learn? What can case studies for say the best folks at IIM etc be?

I would say it has to involve identifying and understanding the mech engg. successfull stories like this one, especially those bought by "salt of the earth" folks in developed markets, since they are in the tough environment and plan to use to maximum etc...and then expand that earned credibility into urban areas etc...

All part of process to then backwork the "why" and "how" part and implementing more of those policies both in automotive and other mech sectors (marine, rail, power etc).

Just like how japanese and koreans did it (robust consumer + supply + policy studies) to fix reliability, improve credibility and then entrench positive USP in mech sector.

@Milspec @ANMDT @#comcom @Gautam @Paro @Joe Shearer @T-123456 @Saithan et al.

Follow up from same owner, even with the chrysler lawsuit lost by mahindra posing problems to supply of parts:

He added a soft cab recently:

 

[Lonewolf]

Follow up from same owner, even with the chrysler lawsuit lost by mahindra posing problems to supply of parts:

He added a soft cab recently:

This thar look shit , the indian variant is basically god for this Variant

 

[Nilgiri]

This thar look shit , the indian variant is basically god for this Variant

Yeah well, roxor was a "look and see" strategy (on something small+rural etc) by mahindra...given chrysler's IP on industrial design etc for the "jeep" brand.

It still got stuck with the problem anyway....and did well in customer reviews all things considered.

Thar is thus a complete no go just by that alone given it will be hit by jeep wrangler etc.. lawsuits....and its good mahindra did not risk that launch right off the bat.

It is now going to make an uglier roxor for US essentially, and see how it goes from sound of things.

US big 3 are very protective...so it will be hard sailing for mahindra past the tractor base.

But the point being made here is function over looks.....and giving high quality product behind the looks.

That can do a lot for Indian manufacturing exports going forward....even if automotive may not be easy one at all in US.

 

[Lonewolf]

Yeah well, roxor was a "look and see" strategy (on something small+rural etc) by mahindra...given chrysler's IP on industrial design etc for the "jeep" brand.

It still got stuck with the problem anyway....and did well in customer reviews all things considered.

Thar is thus a complete no go just by that alone given it will be hit by jeep wrangler etc.. lawsuits....and its good mahindra did not risk that launch right off the bat.

It is now going to make an uglier roxor for US essentially, and see how it goes from sound of things.

US big 3 are very protective...so it will be hard sailing for mahindra past the tractor base.

But the point being made here is function over looks.....and giving high quality product behind the looks.

That can do a lot for Indian manufacturing exports going forward....even if automotive may not be easy one at all in US.

We should focus on fta with uae , Britain , and eu for some specific items .

Australia is a good option too , modi need to exploit his team to last realms now .

 

[Gessler]

Let's keep the Automotive-related news out of the Economy thread and accumulate them all here. Look into any collection of Indians and you'll find auto enthusiasts very easily, so I've no doubt this thread will be populated well in its own right.

@Nilgiri @Gautam @Milspec @Zapper @Lonewolf @VCheng @Paro​

 

[Gessler]

I'll start with a piece I wrote for other forums a while back...

Royal Enfield: The First True 'Global' Indian Brand?​

Ever since their new-generation 650cc twins released in 2018, Royal Enfield (RE)'s reputation & sales figures has taken off in the international markets. So much so that even a platform like the preceding Himalayan ADV, which was never 'meant' for an international customer base is racking up respectable sales & a well-earned reputation for ruggedness & affordability.

So much so that the Interceptor even climbed to the top of the sales charts in the UK:

Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 becomes UK’s top-selling bike

Royal Enfield's 650 formula has been a success not only in India, but other global markets as well.

auto.hindustantimes.com

And recently in New Zealand as well:

Royal Enfield becomes top-selling mid-size bike brand in New Zealand

Royal Enfield's popularity started to grow on a global scale with the launch of the 650 twins - Interceptor INT 650 and Continental GT 650 - 2018.

www.financialexpress.com

While it would be imprudent to say RE has surpassed the likes of BMW Motorrad or the Japanese giants when it comes to dominating sales charts overall (each year RE only barely manages to stay in the Top 10 brands in UK over cumulative sales of all models; to be expected though considering RE caters to only a small section of the market unlike the companies mentioned above, which sell everything from 100cc Scooters to 1500cc Tourers) - what CAN be stated quite assuredly is that RE has for sure learnt how to tap into market niches, use them to expand their foothold to make a name for themselves, and emerge as a mainstream international brand in doing so.

The current RE management certainly has their sights set on the same:

Royal Enfield aims to become a $5 billion global company: Report

Royal Enfield is targeting a 10 per cent market share in mid-size bikes in the export market

www.business-standard.com

Even the smaller-displacement models which otherwise were not expected to get that much of a response in developed markets (like the new Meteor) are outperforming in bookings & sales.

We can comfortably say that the days of RE being nothing but a cult favourite that manufactures classic designs like the Bullet using the same tooling & machinery from their British days back in the 50s, are effectively over...and they were over for a long time, the replacement of the old 350UCE machines with the new 350 J-platform across the board would be the last nail in the coffin of old RE, and the last brick in finishing the construction of new RE. An RE that stands for quality & immense value.

With a slew of new models around the corner (including expansion of the 650 twin family to include cruiser & ADV members) and an expanding international dealer network, this bull run of RE is not going to stop any time soon. I would say with confidence that RE may be the first true global brand that India has produced - that too in a highly competitive and established industry like automobiles. At the very least - this is a story that deserves to be followed.

 

[Jackdaws]

@Gessler are you on Team BHP?

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler are you on Team BHP?

Nope. More of a casual guy.

 

[Jackdaws]

Interesting that you chose the Safari on the first post. I've been eyeing the Harrier. But multiple stories about issues with the Harrier put me off.

 

[Gessler]

Interesting that you chose the Safari on the first post. I've been eyeing the Harrier. But multiple stories about issues with the Harrier put me off.

I believe mostly fixed in the BS6 model (2020) as the production line picked up.

Reflects in the sales, too.

More recently, climbed to the top actually (in its segment) -

 

[Gessler]

Did it just take the title from the Mahindra XUV300 as the safest car from an Indian brand?

 

[Jackdaws]

Did it just take the title from the Mahindra XUV300 as the safest car from an Indian brand?

Tata has cracked that segment - both Nexon and Punch are excellent buys in that segment. But lots of niggles in the Harrier and Safari. Obviously, most get hassle free cars but as a ratio a significant amount get cars with issues. India needs a lemon law.

Can't go wrong with Suzuki, Hyundai, Toyota and Honda - from customer service to availability of parts, they are always prompt. The Europeans launch good products but their A.S.S is pathetic - most notorious is Skoda.