India Navy Indian Conventional Submarine Programs (SSK)

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488835408670511105

 

[Nilgiri]

Russia says it will not bid for Indian Navy's new submarine plan, offers upgraded kilo class

The Russian side has offered India upgraded Kilo class submarines - the type that forms the bulk of the current conventional fleet - but has decided to withdraw from the contest citing technical reasons.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

@Gessler

 

[Gessler]

Russia says it will not bid for Indian Navy's new submarine plan, offers upgraded kilo class

The Russian side has offered India upgraded Kilo class submarines - the type that forms the bulk of the current conventional fleet - but has decided to withdraw from the contest citing technical reasons.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

@Gessler

Good riddance.

The boat they wanted to offer (Amur) simply doesn't exist, neither does a functional Russian AIP solution. It would've been a waste of paperwork to entertain their bid.

Frankly, I have very little faith in the whole P-75I program...I feel the program is addressing a requirement that's no longer relevant. I'd feel much better if the whole thing is scrapped (increasingly likely as its fast heading toward a single-vendor situation), place a repeat order for 3-6 more Scorpenes (with DRDO AIP) and call it a day.

Every bit of remaining financial resources should go toward the long-term SSN program.

 

[Nilgiri]

Good riddance.

The boat they wanted to offer (Amur) simply doesn't exist, neither does a functional Russian AIP solution. It would've been a waste of paperwork to entertain their bid.

Frankly, I have very little faith in the whole P-75I program...I feel the program is addressing a requirement that's no longer relevant. I'd feel much better if the whole thing is scrapped (increasingly likely as its fast heading toward a single-vendor situation), place a repeat order for 3-6 more Scorpenes (with DRDO AIP) and call it a day.

Every bit of remaining financial resources should go toward the long-term SSN program.

I think thats what it will evolve to (scorpene) quite quickly now. Let's see.

They should have just gone that way from start you are correct.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1515752946864168964

 

[Gessler]

The 6th and last Kalvari-class (Scorpene) SSK has been launched at MDL Mumbai

 

[Nilgiri]

If this is confirmed, this is extremely stupid decision @Gessler @Paro @crixus @Joe Shearer @Vergennes @Anmdt et al.

Développé par Naval Group, un nouveau sous-marin d'attaque mis à l'eau en Inde

Le sixième sous-marin de type Scorpène, développé par Naval Group, a été mis à l'eau ce mercredi 20 avril 2022. Il a été entièrement construit à Bombay.

actu.fr

“We are no longer in the race, announced this Wednesday the communication from Naval Group. We invested in the information request phase , but certain conditions of the call for tenders did not allow us to participate in the end. »

Naval Group explains that it is now concentrating its efforts on the integration of an anaerobic propulsion system, during the future refit of the Kalvari class platforms, in cooperation with the navy and Indian industry.


It effectively means P75-I is dead for quite a long time (given time it will take getting any of the remaining two if selected.. i.e SK and spain... up to speed with Indian bureaucrats et al, costs and time).

What could possess Navy to not see scorpene + AIP is most prudent effective option for P75-I given scorpene ToT to the shipyards already?

 

[Paro]

If this is confirmed, this is extremely stupid decision @Gessler @Paro @crixus @Joe Shearer @Vergennes @Anmdt et al.

Développé par Naval Group, un nouveau sous-marin d'attaque mis à l'eau en Inde

Le sixième sous-marin de type Scorpène, développé par Naval Group, a été mis à l'eau ce mercredi 20 avril 2022. Il a été entièrement construit à Bombay.

actu.fr

“We are no longer in the race, announced this Wednesday the communication from Naval Group. We invested in the information request phase , but certain conditions of the call for tenders did not allow us to participate in the end. »

Naval Group explains that it is now concentrating its efforts on the integration of an anaerobic propulsion system, during the future refit of the Kalvari class platforms, in cooperation with the navy and Indian industry.


It effectively means P75-I is dead for quite a long time (given time it will take getting any of the remaining two if selected.. i.e SK and spain... up to speed with Indian bureaucrats et al, costs and time).

What could possess Navy to not see scorpene + AIP is most prudent effective option for P75-I given scorpene ToT to the shipyards already?

I don't know about the Spain option but the SK sub is not an option. The SK sub is almost a licensed version of the german tech even down to the hull. going forward if either of the countries meddles in sharing TOT which we are looking for, the contract is screwed to begin with.

Also, the SSN fabrication probably didn't start yet. with the limited understanding I have, we might have already completed the hulls for S5 subs and put them into storage somewhere. And the only viable option is to increase the number of SSNs.

And with Russia in deep shit now & SSN project being under PMO I think it would be given a higher priority.

 

[crixus]

If this is confirmed, this is extremely stupid decision @Gessler @Paro @crixus @Joe Shearer @Vergennes @Anmdt et al.

Développé par Naval Group, un nouveau sous-marin d'attaque mis à l'eau en Inde

Le sixième sous-marin de type Scorpène, développé par Naval Group, a été mis à l'eau ce mercredi 20 avril 2022. Il a été entièrement construit à Bombay.

actu.fr

“We are no longer in the race, announced this Wednesday the communication from Naval Group. We invested in the information request phase , but certain conditions of the call for tenders did not allow us to participate in the end. »

Naval Group explains that it is now concentrating its efforts on the integration of an anaerobic propulsion system, during the future refit of the Kalvari class platforms, in cooperation with the navy and Indian industry.


It effectively means P75-I is dead for quite a long time (given time it will take getting any of the remaining two if selected.. i.e SK and spain... up to speed with Indian bureaucrats et al, costs and time).

What could possess Navy to not see scorpene + AIP is most prudent effective option for P75-I given scorpene ToT to the shipyards already?

Its not good , I still feel TOT might be a possibility but liability is a stupid clause . French is the only viable option as we are already operating Scoepean , which will give the training similarity , already trained manpower in MDL .

I hate it

 

[Nilgiri]

Quite a good watch on the many deep issues in Indian mil establishment (that many of us also keep mentioning here):

India's ambitious 43,000 crore Project 75i to build a line of conventional submarines with air independent propulsion (AIP) appears to have run aground. Although the deadline for submission of bids is next month, Naval Group and Spain's Navantia pulled out some time ago. Incidentally neither have an operational AIP.

The German firm ThyssenKrupp Marine has raised objections to the high level of indigenous content demanded by India and the unlimited liability on the foreign partner. At this point, South Korea's Daewoo seems to be the only one in contention although there are reports it wants changes to the RFP. In this conversation on StratNewsGlobal, Amit Cowshish, former adviser acquisitions in the Ministry of Defence, wonders why the navy has been insisting on AIP, which is both expensive and adds to the weight of the submarine, when it is not widely used.

He also believes the defence ministry bureaucracy must be asked why it pushed a "strategic partnership" model when the buy global make local framework is already there.

Tune in for more in this chat with Amit Cowshish on Project 75i.

 

[Nilgiri]

In The Defenders this week, we discuss increasing India's submarine capabilities and why we should fast-track some programmes to strengthen the Indian Navy's submarine plans.

Anchor: Maroof Raza

Guests: 1- Jayant D. Patil, Director & Senior Executive VP (Defence & Smart Technologies), L&T
2- CDR Anil Jai Singh (Retd.), Vice President, Indian Maritime Foundation

 

[fire starter]

 

[Seoraksan]

I don't know about the Spain option but the SK sub is not an option. The SK sub is almost a licensed version of the german tech even down to the hull. going forward if either of the countries meddles in sharing TOT which we are looking for, the contract is screwed to begin with.

Also, the SSN fabrication probably didn't start yet. with the limited understanding I have, we might have already completed the hulls for S5 subs and put them into storage somewhere. And the only viable option is to increase the number of SSNs.

And with Russia in deep shit now & SSN project being under PMO I think it would be given a higher priority.

You can count out Korean submarines as well. Korean news outlets report that DSME has internally concluded that the Indian submarine project is not financially viable and it is better off focusing on collaborating with other international partners. I believe that leaves Spain's Navantia being the sole tender of the project. Congrats Spain on winning this contract.

 

[Gessler]

L&T SOV400 midget sub

 

[fire starter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588780160412971008

 

[iceream]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588780160412971008

God we are trash Chinese build 20 submarines per 5 years and here we are stuck in approval limbo @Nilgiri
Drdo AIP based on fuel cell ready
Hill cutting available
Power plant indigenous but still no building of submarines
We take so long to actually do something
Would have been better if all approvals happened in 2 years Max
L and t makes amazing things but still so few in numbers

 

[Nilgiri]

God we are trash Chinese build 20 submarines per 5 years and here we are stuck in approval limbo @Nilgiri
Drdo AIP based on fuel cell ready
Hill cutting available
Power plant indigenous but still no building of submarines
We take so long to actually do something
Would have been better if all approvals happened in 2 years Max
L and t makes amazing things but still so few in numbers

It needs lot of money. Indian economy is just a half or a third of what it realistically ought to be even with all its issues.

Without adequate economic size relative to your population ....there is just not enough raw resource to build the capacities, no matter what you develop in theory.

 

[Nilgiri]

Indian Navy may repeat Kalveri class submarine order

Indian Navy is all set to bury fresh acquisition under Project 75 I and may go for repeat Project 75 order to MDL with DRDO proven and tested air independent propulsion system fitted into the new submarines under “Aatmanirbhar Bharat.”

www.hindustantimes.com

Indian Navy is all set to bury fresh acquisition under Project 75 I and may go for repeat Project 75 order to MDL with DRDO proven and tested air independent propulsion system fitted into the new submarines under “Aatmanirbhar Bharat.”​

New Delhi: When visionary Manohar Parrikar was the Defence Minister of India, he had suggested to then Navy Chief Admiral Robin K Dhowan that Indian Navy should exercise the option of three more Kalveri (Scorpene) class rather than go for fresh acquisition of six of Project 75 I, air independent propulsion equipped, submarines. Admiral Dhowan did not agree because of which the options clause for Project 75, which was approved by Atal Behari Vajpayee government way back in 2003, was cancelled in September 2016.

On July 20, 2021, the Ministry of Defence floated a request for proposal (RFP) for AIP equipped six Project 75 I class submarines at the cost of ₹40,000 crore. Since it is normal for Indian military-civilian bureaucracy to take at least 10-15 years to complete any big acquisition, it means that the current Scorpene submarine line at MDL will go to seed with the next set of 75 I class being built in late 2030s with a fresh massive investment on submarine line. All this appears to be set for a change.

In the meantime, the AIP equipped submarines have been superseded by the latest Soryu class Japanese submarines with higher endurance lithium-ion batteries with faster re-charge capabilities. The lithium-ion batteries have double the storage capacities of traditional lead acid batteries because of which the range of the submarine increases considerably. Given that the French have moved to nuclear propulsion and the German to lithium-ion technology ahead of AIP submarine technology, the Modi government most likely will end up with a single vendor option with South Korea being the only country building AIP submarines. Simply put, this means that by the time the Indian bureaucracy finalizes the vendor, the technology will be outdated and outclassed by the rapidly advancing Chinese PLA Navy.

With PLA Navy rapidly advancing into Indo-Pacific and the QUAD preparing to meet the challenge, the Indian Navy’s leadership is rethinking on its submarine options and may ask the Modi government to repeat the order of Kalveri class submarines with DRDO proven and French Naval Group tested AIP system fitted into the next six submarines. The Indian Navy’s big picture plan for the next 25 years includes design, development, and construction of three nuclear power conventionally armed submarines or what is called nuclear attack submarines or SSNs.

India currently has two nuclear powered ballistic missile fir8ing submarines or SSBNs with the third one under fitment.

The repeat order of Kalveri class submarines will ensure that Indian submarine building and machine tooling skills do not die after the last of Kalveri class submarines is commissioned this year and MDL later exports the same submarines to other countries in Southeast Asia like Indonesia and in Africa. The way out is to give a quiet burial to Project 75 I and build on existing Project 75 with indigenous DRDO developed AIP. The same AIP can be later retrofitted into Kalveri class submarines during mid-term life upgrade. Given that China is launching six to ten warships including submarines each year, India has no other option of meeting the Indo-Pacific challenge.

 

[Gessler]

The most sensible option!

 

[Rajendra Chola]

India cancelled optional 3 more buy in 2016 of Scorpenes. India should continue building scorpenes in batches of 3, with more indigenous in each batch till we call it own Indian design. Like the Koreans.