India Navy SSK Submarines

[Raptor]

The MoD could perhaps consider a consortium of both firms to produce the submarines to drastically cut down on delivery schedules.

I don't think so that it would be a good decision
It would add additional cost

 

[Raptor]

India is the world’s only major submarine-operating country that has not designed and built its own submarines.

Total garbage
What's Arihant class then

 

[crixus]

I don't think so that it would be a good decision
It would add additional cost

I think , they should allow the transfer of emplyees from MDL to L&T . That would smoothen the knowledge transfer and implementation will be efficient

 

[crixus]

Total garbage
What's Arihant class then

I think the gist is we paid for Technology transfer for subs and never able to use it . Southe Korea did the same and now offering their sub to India

 

[crixus]

 

[Nilgiri]

1)India has wasted millions in paying ToT (transfer of technology) fees to foreign OEMs but has not acquired the capability to design and build submarines.

India is the world’s only major submarine-operating country that has not designed and built its own submarines. This is a glaring lapse for a country which inducted submarines over 50 years ago. Yet it was not for want of money. Over four decades, millions of dollars have been spent in obtaining submarine-building expertise from Germany, France and Russia. Yet for various reasons, the Submarine Design Group (SDG), the Indian Navy’s inhouse design organisation, has failed to absorb the capability to design and develop an Indian submarine. In 1981, India signed a contract with West Germany’s HDW to buy four Type 1500 conventional submarines but, more crucially, to acquire submarine-building knowhow. Project officials say the transfer of ToT from West Germany was comprehensive and the plan was to build the fifth and sixth submarines using completely indigenous submarine technology. The company was blacklisted in 1987 on suspicion of bribery, after four submarines had been delivered. In the late 1990s, it paid Russia for design knowhow to build the Arihant-class nuclear submarines. With the blacklist on HDW still on, India signed a contract with the Franco-Spanish consortium Armaris in October 2005 to buy six Scorpene conventional submarines. This contract included transfer of design knowhow. Three submarines are currently in service and three more are due to be delivered by 2023.


2. A need to audit Project 75

The defence ministry needs to carefully audit Project 75, the ‘buy and make’ order for six Scorpene submarines signed in October 2005. This is also critical not just because France’s Naval Group, which supplied the Scorpenes, is also in the reckoning for Project 75‘I’ but also for one other important reason. Project officials say nearly 30 per cent of the Rs 19,000 crore contract cost went towards ToT. This meant that by the sixth Scorpene submarine, India should have been self-sufficient in designing and building submarines, the way it is now for warships. The P-75’I’ would have then segued into a line of Indian designed submarines. This has clearly not happened. What did MDL do with the Transfer of Design Documents (TDD) it received from Armaris, the Franco-Spanish consortium (including DCNS--now Naval Group) that sold the Scorpenes. This TDD went from France to MDL and from the MDL to the DG SDG. It was never utilised. In the 1980s, HDW transferred to MDL all the design blueprints on thousands of microfilms, and microfilm readers were supplied to interpret those designs. These were not utilised because the firm was blacklisted.


3.Why was no indigeneous ecosystem created?

The original 2005 contract was between MDL and Armaris. If the MDL-Armaris contract was an ideal one and all the terms of the contract abided with, then MDL should have established an indigenous supply chain to source components from Indian suppliers. This did not happen. The cost of the contract escalated substantially when MDL-Procured Materials or MPM were added on to the contract. MPM was material that was procured for MDL by the French firm. Project officials say this is what subverted India’s ability to indigenously source the items and manufacture. More than 60 per cent of the Scorpene, including the combat management system and sensors, are imported. Would the same be repeated with the P-75‘I’ contract?

4.Can Project 75 segue into the P75 ‘I’?

India currently operates three different types of conventional submarines from Russia, France and Germany. All three have separate training and spares and procurement. Each submarine has its own distinct build, maintenance and operational philosophy. Russian and French boats, for instance, are completely different in their power supplies, types of motors, control systems, operations and standard operating procedures. A bulk of India’s conventional submarine fleet is over 25 years old and life extensions will see most of them in service for 15 more years. The P-75‘I’, therefore, offers a chance to stabilise the entire submarine line on an in-service platform, whether French, Russian or German. By 2023, the navy will operate six Scorpene submarines which will be in service until 2050 and beyond. Feedback from the current fleet of Scorpene submarines should inform the decision on the choice of the P-75‘I’. Would a lengthened ‘Super Scorpene’ with additional sections for AIP (

5) Can both industrial partners form a consortium to speed up submarine production?

MDL and L&T, the only two Indian shipyards with submarine-building experience, are national strategic assets. MDL has delivered two HDW Type 1500 submarines to the navy and three Scorpene submarines. L&T has fabricated hulls of four 6,000-tonne Arihant class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines at its facility in Hazira and integrated them at the Shipbuilding Centre in Visakhapatnam. The P-75 ‘I’ contract will be placed on one shortlisted firm. The MoD could perhaps consider a consortium of both firms to produce the submarines to drastically cut down on delivery schedules. A linear build programme will see the six submarines delivered by 2036 at the earliest. Parallel production by MDL-L&T could halve this delivery schedule.

Lessons from Project 75

The Defence Ministry clears six P-75I submarines for the Indian Navy. What lessons it must learn from the P-75 Scorpene submarine project

www.indiatoday.in

@Zapper @Nilgiri @FalconSlayersDFI @Jackdaws @Isa Khan

Bro, our establishment was terrible and now they are just a bit better (or the same) than that worst time.

Hence there is huge missed opportunity with many initial ToT.

HDW blacklisted (209/sishumar) and Bofors blacklisted come to mind for example for the 80s/90s...instead of making rules more pragmatic for greater objective in mind (esp given rotten state internally of our own corruption in first place).

The former (HDW 209) needed more active participation to get to more sustained fruition in ecosystem way....so this is what led to scorpene (and new ToT initiation + predictable cost escalation + delays + consequences from all that) compared to evolution of cards in hand. That is why korean reference (209 to what they dev'ed now) is good one to do.

Bofors was even simpler, there was no further participation needed from Bofors, the ToT was essentially complete. Yet Indian def establishment just sat on that ToT for decades doing nothing with it...all the while our armed forces artillery supply suffered. Horrible.

 

[crixus]

Bro, our establishment was terrible and now they are just a bit better (or the same) than that worst time.

Hence there is huge missed opportunity with many initial ToT.

HDW blacklisted (209/sishumar) and Bofors blacklisted come to mind for example for the 80s/90s...instead of making rules more pragmatic for greater objective in mind (esp given rotten state internally of our own corruption in first place).

The former (HDW 209) needed more active participation to get to more sustained fruition in ecosystem way....so this is what led to scorpene (and new ToT initiation + predictable cost escalation + delays + consequences from all that) compared to evolution of cards in hand. That is why korean reference (209 to what they dev'ed now) is good one to do.

Bofors was even simpler, there was no further participation needed from Bofors, the ToT was essentially complete. Yet Indian def establishment just sat on that ToT for decades doing nothing with it...all the while our armed forces artillery supply suffered. Horrible.

You literally hit the nail , thats my point when we payed the hard earned tax payers money to buy TOT and still not able to consume that , its blasphamous to waste such huge amounts when your country so many people living below poverty line.

Hopefully this time for P75i , hopefull the deal goes to L&T and they will be availbale to consume the TOT and come out with inhouse designs .

 

[Jackdaws]

They should have allowed private firms to get into defence eons ago. Look at the likes of Lockheed Martin. Tata, L&T, M&M - would have ensured Indian defence companies would be quite competitive. Better late than never I guess.

 

[crixus]

They should have allowed private firms to get into defence eons ago. Look at the likes of Lockheed Martin. Tata, L&T, M&M - would have ensured Indian defence companies would be quite competitive. Better late than never I guess.

They did walchand industries and godrej played important role in nuclear reactors and ISRO but the TOT clause was used to spike the price and private industries were intentionally avoided during such deals .

Walchandnagar Industries

www.walchand.com

Hope you remember that 1 billion USD delay penaly clause in P75 deal

 

[Saithan]

MADEX 2021: DSME Sheds Light on Submarine Offer to India for P-75I - Naval News

At MADEX 2021, the naval defense exhibition held in Busan last week, local shipbuilder Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) was pitching its 3,300 ton (surface displacement) submarine, dubbed the DSME 3000, to India for the country’s Project 75I-class (P75I) programme.

www.navalnews.com

At MADEX 2021, the naval defense exhibition held in Busan last week, local shipbuilder Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) was pitching its 3,300 ton (surface displacement) submarine, dubbed the DSME 3000, to India for the country’s Project 75I-class (P75I) programme.​

About India’s P-75I​

The Indian government shortlisted in January 2020 two Indian shipyards and five foreign defense companies for the P-75I project which calls for the local construction of six conventional submarines fitted with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems in a contract worth $7 billion. The programme requires a high degree of localization; all six submarines are expected to be constructed in Indian shipyards.


The two local shipyards that were shortlisted are the privately owned L&T group and state-owned MDL. The five foreign defense companies are:

• Russia’s Rubin Design Bureau with the Amur 1650,
• France’s Naval Group with a conventional Barracuda design,
• Spain’s Navantia with the S-80 Plus,
• Germany’s ThyseenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) HDW 214,
• South Korea’s DSME with the DSME 3000 (based on the ROK Navy’s KSS III).

 

[Nilgiri]

3 Threads have been merged on P-75I. I will pin this thread for easy reference given it seems to be hot topic lately in news/analysis.

 

[crixus]

 

[crixus]

type 214 :

Nvantia S-80

Korean CB

Russian Amur

French SMX

 

[Nilgiri]

@crixus et al.

Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not...

www.moneycontrol.com

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed.​

India’s order for six conventional submarines, costing Rs 43,000 crore, could go to two companies instead of one, given the current geopolitical situation, a top official of one of India’s submarine makers has claimed.


The Request for Proposal (RFP) for the construction of the Project P 75 (I) submarines under the strategic partnership model is expected to be issued in July. The Defence Acquisition Council has given the go-ahead for the same in June.


The order will go either to Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders (MDL) or Larsen & Toubro (L&T) -- the two domestic companies which have to partner with one of the five international original equipment manufacturers (OEM).

If the government looks at the possibility of having parallel production of more than just one submarine at a time this would dramatically reduce the time required to produce the vessels.

Narayan Prasad, Chairman and Managing Director, said: “In the current geopolitical scenario, if the government concludes that the threat perception in the Indian Ocean Region and the South China Sea is so pronounced that they need parallel production of these vessels in a shorter horizon, such concepts can also be conceived. I can’t rule it out.”

The acquisition, which is one of the biggest under the ‘Make in India’ strategic partnership model, is aimed at boosting India’s submarine fleet, most of which are over 25 years old.

Tech cross-transfer possible

“At any point of time, when the government decides that (MDL and L&T) can join (forces), there could be a cross transfer of technology to quickly build the submarines. We can examine those possibilities, and that is a huge potential. We will not be able to rule it out completely,” Prasad added.

It would take about eight years from the awarding of contract to the handing over the first submarine to the Indian Navy. The delivery of the remaining submarines will be done at an interval of 12-15 months. If the order is split between MDL and L&T, it would substantially cut down the delivery period.

The five global OEMs are Russia’s Rosoboronexport, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp, France’s Naval Group, Spain’s Navantia and South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering. These companies were shortlisted by an empowered committee last year.

“After the RFP floated, they will give about four months’ time for bid submission. This is a very complex programme, in which there is a field evaluation trial of a new technology called air independent propulsion system. All the five technology partners are located in five different countries, so this will take a certain amount of time,” Prasad added.

These conventional diesel-electric submarines are bigger than the six Scorpene-class submarines manufactured by MDL in Mumbai. Three such Scorpene submarines (P75) have been handed over to the Indian Navy while the fourth, INS Vela, is set to join the forces before the end of FY22.

 

[crixus]

@crixus et al.

Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not...

www.moneycontrol.com

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed.​

India’s order for six conventional submarines, costing Rs 43,000 crore, could go to two companies instead of one, given the current geopolitical situation, a top official of one of India’s submarine makers has claimed.


The Request for Proposal (RFP) for the construction of the Project P 75 (I) submarines under the strategic partnership model is expected to be issued in July. The Defence Acquisition Council has given the go-ahead for the same in June.


The order will go either to Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders (MDL) or Larsen & Toubro (L&T) -- the two domestic companies which have to partner with one of the five international original equipment manufacturers (OEM).

If the government looks at the possibility of having parallel production of more than just one submarine at a time this would dramatically reduce the time required to produce the vessels.

Narayan Prasad, Chairman and Managing Director, said: “In the current geopolitical scenario, if the government concludes that the threat perception in the Indian Ocean Region and the South China Sea is so pronounced that they need parallel production of these vessels in a shorter horizon, such concepts can also be conceived. I can’t rule it out.”

The acquisition, which is one of the biggest under the ‘Make in India’ strategic partnership model, is aimed at boosting India’s submarine fleet, most of which are over 25 years old.

Tech cross-transfer possible

“At any point of time, when the government decides that (MDL and L&T) can join (forces), there could be a cross transfer of technology to quickly build the submarines. We can examine those possibilities, and that is a huge potential. We will not be able to rule it out completely,” Prasad added.

It would take about eight years from the awarding of contract to the handing over the first submarine to the Indian Navy. The delivery of the remaining submarines will be done at an interval of 12-15 months. If the order is split between MDL and L&T, it would substantially cut down the delivery period.

The five global OEMs are Russia’s Rosoboronexport, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp, France’s Naval Group, Spain’s Navantia and South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering. These companies were shortlisted by an empowered committee last year.

“After the RFP floated, they will give about four months’ time for bid submission. This is a very complex programme, in which there is a field evaluation trial of a new technology called air independent propulsion system. All the five technology partners are located in five different countries, so this will take a certain amount of time,” Prasad added.

These conventional diesel-electric submarines are bigger than the six Scorpene-class submarines manufactured by MDL in Mumbai. Three such Scorpene submarines (P75) have been handed over to the Indian Navy while the fourth, INS Vela, is set to join the forces before the end of FY22.

Awesome news if they give it to L&T , I can bet in next 15 years they will design in house submarines. 3 subs will give them enough experience to absorb the TOT

 

[Nilgiri]

A training aid of some sort @Anmdt ?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414268028284379136

 

[Gessler]

Interesting...

 

[Raptor]

Is This The Indian Navy’s New Special Operations Midget Submarine?​

By
Sriram Thiagarajan
-
July 17, 2021




Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has entered the niche area of midget submarine design for special operations with the SOV 400. The company, of course, has long been a part of the strategic submarine program building hulls and subsystems for the Indian Navy’s Arihant-class nuclear submarines. It is also one of the contenders for the Indian Navy’s P-75I diesel-electric submarine acquisition besides having built the Amogh, Adamya and Maya autonomous underwater vehicles (AUV) for the service. It is this pedigree that L&T is now leveraging to enter the market for midget submarines with the SOV 400.

Designed and developed in-house, the SOV 400 will be capable of carrying a crew of ten along with the ten more special operations troops. The submarine is positioned to provide smaller navies with constrained budgets an asymmetric capability. The vessel will be utilized to deploy and recover special forces while submerged for intelligences, surveillance, reconnaissance (ISR) as well as sabotage, rescue and evacuation missions.

The vessel will carry two heavyweight torpedoes outside the pressure hull for shallow-water attacks. It will be able to dive to depths greater than 100 m and travel up to 2000 nautical miles(3704 km). SOV-400 can also be carried by conventional submarines to be deployed as per mission requirements.
The 44 m long, 490 ton displacement midget submarine will have an endurance of 21 days and be able to traverse submerged for 80 nm and cruise for 2000 nm at a speed of 4 knots. Two 400 kWe generators will charge two 4 Mha lead-acid batteries. These will power a 300 kW electric motor to provide propulsion for the submarine.

A lock-in lock-out chamber will separate the two hulls of the submarine with crew and special forces personnel, combat information centre and battery banks accommodated in the forward compartment. The aft section containing machinery will be unmanned. Automation of the submarine operation will enable minimal manual operation of the submarine.
Apart from its small size and greater than 100 m operational depth, the submarine will utilise slow-turning propellers with sweptback blades and special damped mounts for machinery to achieve underwater stealth. Hull structures will be made from indigenously developed DMR 249 steel. Batteries, torpedo tubes, paints, coatings, pipes, valves, switchgear, cables, AC plants, compressors etc. will all be sourced from India.
Diesel generators will be sourced from Isotta Fraschini Motori. The permanent magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) will be sourced from Jeumont which supplies multiphase AC synchronous propulsion motors for the French Scorpene submarines. Swimmer delivery vehicle (SDV), sonar, periscope, electronic support measures (ESM), snorkel masts will also be sourced from abroad. This split once again brings to light, the need for investments and orders for domestic products to enable production of such hi-tech sub-systems in India.
While the current variant utilizes lead-acid batteries, an advanced variant with lithium-ion batteries is being developed. Apart from the Indian Navy which plans to buy such vessels, there also exists a market for such submarines in navies of friendly countries.
Preliminary design for the program has been completed and in-principle approval by DNV GL is awaited. L&T intends to complete model testing this year.
Post the 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attacks, the Indian Navy decided to procure five midget submarines for its Marine Commandos (MARCOS) to perform underwater covert operations and surveillance missions. The Navy initially planned to get five such vessels with an option to buy more later. In 2015 the Ministry of Defence finally decided to contract Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) to construct two Strategic Operating Vessels (SOVs) at a cost of Rs 3,000 crore. After other shipyards like L&T objected to this move for not offering them an even playing field, the program floundered. It remains to be seen if the SOV 400 will finally fulfil the Indian Navy’s midget submarine requirements.

Is This The Indian Navy’s New Special Operations Midget Submarine? | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

 

[Raptor]

 

[Gessler]

A while back, HI Sutton of Covert Shores did a story on what was at the time an earlier iteration of this design:

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

www.hisutton.com