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Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri bro iirc there's a table you shared here about India's naval building efficiency, clearly that might explain the long time it need to build an aircraft carrier.

I mean aircraft carriers are a very complex manufacturing to begin with. Just look at the Fords CVN


China has 3 path in which it could enter the Indian Ocean

China--SCS-Malacca strait
China--SCS--Sunda strait
China--Philippine sea--Makassar strait--Lombok strait

all of which are perfect for ambush predators like that of a submarine, waiting in the mouth of the strait. Also submarines are likely the department where India's navy could keep up with the Chinese when it comes to that of accoustics signature reduction.

Had to look for it, its here:


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However one has to remember this is during phase (1990 - 2020) when India was moving into an investment ramp (still ongoing) unlike more matured capacities in west (and also increasingly China).

So these averages will continue to improve in this decade, we have to see where they are realised later.

The 3rd carrier will also be built in total different shipyard and drydock specific to it (at CSL) dedicated to it in a 1:1 absolute way...

..... so MDL and GRSE might not be relevant comparisons given they have much different (inherited, acquired and still to come) competing pressure loads of smaller tonnage ships like destroyers, frigates, corvettes and so on.....which all add to the time cost given the much higher frequency of ships involved (given how frequency statistical costs can cascade compared to secured insular 1:1 commitment of one large project)
 

Nilgiri

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anyway 65000 tons, CATOBAR carriers remind me of this : the CVV medium carriers with 2 catapult

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would IN go for EMALS or traditional steam catapult ?

CATOBAR vs EMALS would be something to be determined with time.

It will "at least be" the former....but if IFEP cooperation with US/UK/France goes well (a MOU has been signed with a GE arm where all 3 countries are involved)..... and trust is built/leveraged well.....it could very well extend more seamlessly into the latter.
 

Afif

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We just started off on wrong foot on this forum, it happens (trust me I share lot of your concerns about India, but this forum has a way to go about it best that you will find with time and experience here).

So there is no real reason to not agree on many things on all kind of topics simply going by just a first clash.

Lot of people online I have agreed very much on things past the "first clash" we had....some even have become friends.


As for rest of your post, yes I agree I would have a French SSN basis as urgent/better priority for Indian navy well over another carrier.

Vikrant itself will provide lot of capacity to test out and get better at now anyway in carrier domain and has sustainable accomodation w.r.t India Naval ORBAT (this decade) for any conflict past peacetime.

That can be taken to next stage when Indian fiscal and security resources are hopefully in much better shape in future to provide such buffer and room in apex relative "prestige" realms...... compared to now where there is intense demand pressure relative to supply.


But unfortunately Indian navy has dropped the ball on submarine realm strategy for a few decades now....with piecemeal and counter-intuitive approach ever since the HDW versus DCNS debacle in 80s/90s and switch (and having to restart ToT and networking all over again in SSK compared to say Koreans who have benefited immensely by consistency with HDW).

SSN chapter would have needed extra political, bureaucratic and economic capital to fit on top of this to take forward more seamlessly and robustly in Indian context....but since these SSK foundations are shaky, from Indian defence establishment POV it will be expensive to insert and accelerate relative to above-surface domain capital assets (big or small).

The above-surface conventional ship stuff India has much better track record, consistency and bureaucratic inertia, this is likely part of the reasoning to go for 3rd carrier (and all required/allocated surface ships to support it) against more neutral objective assessment (which would push for SSN).
Yeah! I guess I was really inexperienced! 😂 but I think i started to understand better now. unfortunately for last two years I didn't have that much of serious and intellectual engagements with credible peoples. Anyway, I find it really interesting and exciting if I really become friend with an indian! ( no offense! I just mean, different cultures and propably totally oposite world view )

now return to the actual topic, even if india build another big and more capable third carrier don't you think it creates a new dilemma for indian navy? I mean, a big carrier means much greater reach and endurance, however, every carrier must have a credible underwater escort! And Even though india has some good SSK but they simply can't supplement the 'big carrier' when it will be roaming thousand miles away in middle of the indian ocean for three four days at 14 15 knots, hence effectively limiting the new carrier's operational reach and endurance. How do you think indian navy is going to address that problem ?

( I mean, this would not a good strategy to think let's first have a big carrier and then we are gonna add some SSN. Because, the development of SSN probably take similar or more time and resources than just a big carrier )

but most importantly, why do you think indian strategic military planners still can't decide what will be the future of indian navy? I mean will it be green water or blue water? It seems they stuck with something in between! And it doesn't seems to be a very good long term strategy! ( I mean, china already decided that, they want a true blue water navy! And they are moving very fast at that direction! )
 

Gessler

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Why a decade?

Well even the Queen Elizabeth took 8 years from keel laying to commissioning and that was for a ship without the more complicated stuff like EMALS/CAT. I'd say a decade is actually on the lower end for an estimate.
 

Nilgiri

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now return to the actual topic, even if india build another big and more capable third carrier don't you think it creates a new dilemma for indian navy? I mean, a big carrier means much greater reach and endurance, however, every carrier must have a credible underwater escort! And Even though india has some good SSK but they simply can't supplement the 'big carrier' when it will be roaming thousand miles away in middle of the indian ocean for three four days at 14 15 knots, hence effectively limiting the new carrier's operational reach and endurance. How do you think indian navy is going to address that problem ?

The strategy will be optimized appropriately and there will be greater reliance on surface ships (and P-8 poseidon etc) for underwater threats.

There will be less direct deterrence potential compared to SSN (given SSN's extra degrees of freedom in its specific realm), but there will be similar total force level in actual engagement.

These will have to be wargamed thoroughly of course.

A navy is singularly different to the other branches of the military in that it is heavy-asset reliant (with huge number of personnel onboard each one) much more significantly.

You have to remember that logistics and turnovers (during peacetime) work on basis of 3 ships I explain here and you and others might find the larger reply and convo useful too:


War strategy and say carrier mission vs reserve strategy would also orient similarly.

i.e you would not expect to send all 3 carriers out (and put heavy strain on support assets, sub or otherwise)....but stage them appropriately to the threats and conflict that arise...and find optimal spearhead and rotation.

It is instructive to study for example USN staggered +logistical handling of its carrier assets from just after pearl harbour towards midway....and then how this evolved from midway to the end of war.....and the reasons why.

The cost and benefit risk analysis and the logistical needs at the same time (this is how the number 3 was found out as optimal for large assets).

That was era where that era SIGINT and PBY provided much more rudimentary sensing than available today.

but most importantly, why do you think indian strategic military planners still can't decide what will be the future of indian navy? I mean will it be green water or blue water? It seems they stuck with something in between! And it doesn't seems to be a very good long term strategy! ( I mean, china already decided that, they want a true blue water navy! And they are moving very fast at that direction! )

It will be where it will be in accordance to the underlying fiscal capacity. Blue water vs green water is secondary debate to that.

The larger your economy, the more fiscal room you can develop for a relatively privileged deployment of such resource like military (and naval power projection being near the apex of it)....and how much of a blue water capacity you can develop and evolve to.
 

Gessler

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Indian Ministry of Defense press release
(slightly edited by me for the forum)

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Image via Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL)

Showcasing the country’s growing prowess of indigenous manufacturing and a major milestone in the path towards ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat’ (Self-reliant India) Prime Minister Narendra Modi commissioned the country’s first indigenous aircraft carrier Indian Naval Ship (INS) Vikrant at Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) on September 02, 2022. During the event, the Prime Minister also unveiled the new Naval Ensign (Nishaan), doing away with the colonial past and befitting the rich Indian maritime heritage. He dedicated the new ensign to 17th century Maratha ruler Chhatrapati Shivaji, the builder of one of the world's most formidable naval fleets of the time.

Addressing the gathering, the Prime Minister said, here on the coast of Kerala, every Indian is witnessing the sunrise of a new future. This event being held on the INS Vikrant is a tribute to the rising spirits of India on the world horizon. He said that today we are seeing a manifestation of the dream of the freedom fighters where they envisioned a capable and strong India.

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The modified St. George's Cross has been replaced with an Ensign symbolizing the Octagonal seal of the founder of the Maratha Empire, Chatrapathi Shivaji

Vikrant is huge, massive, and vast. Vikrant is distinguished, Vikrant is also special. Vikrant is not just a warship. This is a testament to the hard work, talent, influence and commitment of India in the 21st century. If the goals are distant, the journeys are long, the ocean and the challenges are endless – then India’s answer is Vikrant. The incomparable Amrit of Azadi ka Amrit Mahotsav is Vikrant. Vikrant is a unique reflection of India becoming self-reliant.

- Narendra Modi, Indian Prime Minister

Commenting on the new mood of the nation, the Prime Minister said, no challenge is too difficult for today’s India. He said “today, India has joined those countries in the world, which manufacture such a huge aircraft carrier with indigenous technology. Today INS Vikrant has filled the country with a new confidence, and has created a new confidence in the country.” The Prime Minister acknowledged and praised the contribution of the Navy, engineers of Cochin Shipyard, scientists and specially the workers who worked on the project. He also noted the happy and auspicious occasion of Onam that is adding even more happiness to the occasion.

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Every part of INS Vikrant has its own merits, a strength, a development journey of its own. It is a symbol of indigenous potential, indigenous resources and indigenous skills. The steel installed in its airbase is also indigenous, developed by DRDO scientists and produced by Indian companies, he said. Explaining the massive proportions of the Carrier, the Prime Minister said it is like a floating city. It produces electricity that is sufficient to power 5000 households and the wiring used will reach Kashi from Kochi, he said. He said that INS Vikrant is a living embodiment of the Spirit of the Panch Prans that he proclaimed from the ramparts of Red Fort.

The Prime Minister talked about the Indian Maritime tradition and naval capabilities. Chhatrapati Veer Shivaji Maharaj, he said, built such a navy on the strength of this sea power, which kept the enemies on their toes. When the British came to India, they used to be intimidated by the power of Indian ships and trade through them. So they decided to break the back of India’s maritime power. History is witness to how strict restrictions were imposed on Indian ships and merchants by enacting a law in the British Parliament at that time, the Prime Minister said.

The Prime Minister remarked that when Vikrant descends to protect our maritime zone, many women soldiers of the Navy will also be stationed there. Now the Indian Navy has decided to open all its branches for women. The restrictions that were there are now being removed. Just as there are no boundaries for the capable waves, there will be no boundaries or restrictions for the daughters of India.

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Commenting on the changing geo-strategic situation, he said in the past, security concerns in the Indo-Pacific region and the Indian Ocean have long been ignored. But, today this area is a major defence priority of the country for us. That is why we are working in every direction, from increasing the budget for the Navy to increasing its capability, he said. The Prime Minister said that a strong India will pave the way for a peaceful and safe world.

In his address, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh termed the commissioning of INS Vikrant at the onset of ‘Amritkal’ as a testament to the Government’s strong resolve to ensure the safety and security of the nation in the next 25 years.

INS Vikrant is a glowing symbol of an aspirational and self-reliant ‘New India’. It is an icon of pride, power and resolve of the Nation. Its commissioning is an unprecedented achievement in the path of building indigenous warships. Indian Navy’s tradition is ‘old ships never die’. This new avatar of Vikrant, which played a stellar role in the 1971 war, is a humble tribute to our freedom fighters and brave soldiers.

- Rajnath Singh, Indian Defence Minister

Rajnath Singh also asserted that it is a key responsibility of the Indian Navy to secure the country’s maritime interests for uninterrupted maritime trade, amid the constantly-changing global situation. He commended the Navy for always being the ‘First Responder’ in times of any national or international crisis and exuded confidence that the commissioning of INS Vikrant will further enhance the force’s capability. He added that this is an assurance to the friendly foreign countries that India is fully capable of meeting the collective security needs of the region. “We believe in a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific. Our efforts in this regard are guided by ‘SAGAR’ (Security and Growth for All in the Region) as envisioned by the Prime Minister,” he said.

Rajnath Singh listed a series of steps taken by the Ministry of Defence to achieve the objective. These include setting up of defense corridors in Uttar Pradesh and Tamil Nadu; issuance of three positive indigenization lists; earmarking of 68% of capital procurement budget for domestic industry; Defence Production and Export Promotion Policy 2020 and increase in FDI limit. He said, the aim is ‘Make in India, Make for the World’, and exports of more than $400 billion in the last year is a proof of this vision.

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Speaking on the occasion, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral R Hari Kumar voiced the Navy’s resolve for India@100 to become completely self-reliant by 2047, consisting of ‘Made in India’ ships, submarines, aircraft, unmanned vessels and systems and remain a ‘Combat Ready, Credible, Cohesive and Future-Proof Force’. He added that the Navy is determined to move forward on the path of five pledges – developed India, removing any sign of servility, pride in heritage, unity and fulfilling the duties – as envisioned by the Prime Minister.

The Chief of the Naval Staff exhorted the Commanding Officer and crew of INS Vikrant to take forward the proud legacy of erstwhile Vikrant which served the country for 36 glorious years and played a significant role in the 1971 war.

About INS Vikrant​


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Vikrant meaning victorious and gallant, the foundation for prestigious IAC (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier) was firmly established in April 2005 by ceremonial Steel Cutting. In order to push the indigenization drive, the Warship grade steel required for the construction of IAC was successfully indigenized through the Steel Authority of India Limited (SAIL) in collaboration with the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) and the Indian Navy. The hull fabrication progressed thereafter and the ship’s keel was laid in February 2009. The first phase of ship construction was completed with the successful launch of the ship in August 2013.

The readiness of the ship’s propulsion and Power generation equipment/systems in the harbor was tested as part of Basin Trials on Nov 20. Vikrant has completed multiple phases of Sea Trials from August 2021 to date, where the ship’s performance, including the response of the ship’s hull to various conditions of operations, maneuvering trials, main propulsion, Power Generation, and Distribution (PGD), ship’s Navigation and Communication systems, endurance testing of propulsion machinery, and so on.

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The 262 m long and 62 m wide Vikrant displaces approx 43,000 T when fully loaded, having a maximum designed speed of 28 Knots with an endurance of 7500 NM. The ship has around 2200 compartments, designed for a crew of around 1600 that include specialized cabins to accommodate women officers and sailors. The carrier is designed with a very high degree of automation for machinery operations, ship navigation, and survivability.

The ship would be capable of operating an air wing consisting of 30 aircraft comprising of MiG-29K fighter jets, Kamov-31, MH-60R multi-role helicopters, in addition to indigenously manufactured Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) (Navy). Using a novel aircraft-operation mode known as Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR), the IAC is equipped with a ski-jump for launching aircraft, and a set of three ‘arrester wires’ for their recovery onboard.


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The ship boasts of a full-fledged Medical Complex with the latest medical equipment facilities that include major modular OT, emergency modular OT, physiotherapy clinic, ICU, laboratories, CT scanner, X-Ray machines, Dental complex, Isolation ward, telemedicine facilities, etc.

Specifications of Vikrant:​

  • Length: 262.5 m
  • Width: 61.6 m
  • Height (Keel to pole mast): 61.6 m
  • Displacement: appx 42.800 tonnes
  • Speed (Max/Cruise): 28/18 knots
  • Flight Deck area: 12.500 SqM
  • Propulsion: GTs – 22MWx4, DAs – 3MWx8
  • Range: 7500 Nautical Miles
  • Weapons: SAM – 32xMRSAM, AK630 CIWS
  • Air Wing: Mix of 30 Aircraft & Helicopters
  • Runway: Landing – 191m, Long Take-off – 203m, Short Take-off – 145m
  • Helo landing spots: 6
  • 3 x Arresting Gear Wires
  • 2 x SAC lifts (10×14 m)

@Nilgiri @Cabatli_TR @MisterLike @Yasar @Anmdt @AlphaMike @Milspec @Ryder @Test7 and everyone else
 

Gessler

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There are already talks to build a third and then stop, right?

3rd carrier is required, but they haven't frozen the requirements for that ship yet.

*and then stop* - its not possible to stop because Vikramaditya will retire by 2040, only a few years after IAC-2 is commissioned, and IN still requires a 3-carrier fleet. Something like IAC-3 will have to be taken up at that point. That will hopefully be nuclear-powered as the CLWR-B2 reactor will be mature by that point.
 

Jackdaws

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3rd carrier is required, but they haven't frozen the requirements for that ship yet.

*and then stop* - its not possible to stop because Vikramaditya will retire by 2040, only a few years after IAC-2 is commissioned, and IN still requires a 3-carrier fleet. Something like IAC-3 will have to be taken up at that point. That will hopefully be nuclear-powered as the CLWR-B2 reactor will be mature by that point.
I mean keep max 3 operational at a time.
 
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