India Historical Indian War History Thread

[ekemenirtu]

PA strength is 55k. Rest were police and para-military forces which would be lightly armed and not trained to fight a war against invading army.

Interesting statistics.

Why did Pakistan send so few troops to a distant territory that it cared little for?

Would it not have been much better to surrender 9 months earlier?

It wold have saved a lot of lives, limbs, property and acrimony.

 

[Kaptaan]

I suspect the Pakistani people's experience in 1971 was similar.

Maybe you can share some anecdotes on the similarities between the two countries' experiences. The case of Armenia and the case of Pakistan.

Yes and no. Similiar in how it was a shock to the public as the media kept them in dark as to what was happening on other side of the continent.

Differant because Armenians were fighting adjacent to their home bases. The PA force was from West Pakistan which was 1,200 miles as the crow flies. That would be like Armenian force holding down Thrace on the other side of Turkey whilst fighting off Turkish Army assault and hoilding down the local Thracians. The recent conflict over NG would be a walk in the park by comparison.

 

[Kaptaan]

foreign country to anyone from Pakistan Proper

Yes it was. My uncle sadly was posted to this horrible place in a enivoronment that was alien to him. Tropical, aluvial, jungles and barely above sea level with strange language and differant culture.

 

[Null/Void]

Yes and no. Similiar in how it was a shock to the public as the media kept them in dark as to what was happening on other side of the continent.

Differant because Armenians were fighting adjacent to their home bases. The PA force was from West Pakistan. That would be like Armenian force holding down Thrace on the other side of Turkey whilst fighting off Turkish Army assault and hoilding down the local Thracians. The recent conflict over NG would be a walk in the park by comparison.

Armenians from my interactions over the years are much more "nationalistic" towards their country yeah they are poor they are Russia's client state but Armenians despite being losers had their diaspora fight on their side over Karabakh Pakistanis ohhh our "Muslim"bros we help us gain Kashmir

 

[Null/Void]

Yes it was. My uncle sadly was posted to this horrible place in a enivoronment that was alien to him. Tropical, aluvial, jungles and barely above sea level with strange language and differant culture.

Yeah one of my Uncles was a POW there had to escape from there and broke ouT from a POW camp we still dont know how he came back he wasnt army but a Govt official posted there

 

[Null/Void]

My dad still says Bangladesh independence was caused by Bhutto and Yahya Khan he was young back then but looking into it was impossible to rule a country 1000 km away unless your a superpower like USA or ex USSR

 

[ekemenirtu]

My dad still says Bangladesh independence was caused by Bhutto and Yahya Khan he was young back then but looking into it was impossible to rule a country 1000 km away unless your a superpower like USA or ex USSR

France still maintains territory in the Oceanian region. And in South America. Simultaneously.

Malaysia is separated by a body of water, often called the South China Sea. West Malaysia or Peninsular Malaysia is physically separated from East Malaysia on the island of Borneo.

Indonesia consists of many islands.

It is certainly possible with a very supportive population and adequate reserves of manpower, supplies and resources.

I suspect the population was not very supportive of the Pakistani military.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Yes and no. Similiar in how it was a shock to the public as the media kept them in dark as to what was happening on other side of the continent.

I thought so.

Just like most Armenians, most Pakistanis are probably bitter because they were kept in the dark by their governments for very long.

 

[Null/Void]

France still maintains territory in the Oceanian region. And in South America. Simultaneously.

Malaysia is separated by a body of water, often called the South China Sea. West Malaysia or Peninsular Malaysia is physically separated from East Malaysia on the island of Borneo.

Indonesia consists of many archipelagos.

It is certainly possible with a very supportive population and adequate reserves of manpower, supplies and resources.

I suspect the population was not very supportive of the Pakistani military.

You forgot Russia with Kallingrad enclave too well formerly a Prussian/German Enclave until WW2 but yeah 1970 Pakistan was just not in the right place running a eastern wing due to cultural gap and economic gaps

 

[ekemenirtu]

You forgot Russia with Kallingrad enclave too well formerly a Prussian/German Enclave until WW2 but yeah 1970 Pakistan was just not in the right place running a eastern wing due to cultural gap and economic gaps

I guess lack of popular support and lack of comprehensive military superiority meant the outcome was a foregone conclusion during the very first hours of war.

 

[Kaptaan]

Why did Pakistan send so few troops to a distant territory that it cared little for?

Bangla was just a sideshow. The PA's primary concern was defending the 'home country' or West Pakistan. The western front was about 1,000 miles and open to attack as most is rolling semi-desert. Major cities like Lahore are only 15 miles from Indian frontier and lay exposed. Don't also overlook the massive population resource disparity between Pakistan and India which of course feeds into all other resources. This infographic is for today but it gives you a idea. India is a union of I believe 30 [?] states. Just one, Utter Pradesh has the same population as Pakistan.

Faced with such odds almost all the frontline units were deployed on the Western front. Other assets like most of the airforce also were deployed on the west. In fact questions had been raised as to why the east had miserably small force to which the strategy posited was "defence of the east lay in the west".

In fact the 55k number was elevated because in the previous 2 years the insurgents of the Mukhti Bahini [PKK in the Turkish context] supplied and trained by India was causing trouble. However because of the vast distance and Pakistan's very weak logistics reinforcements sent over to suppress the Mukhtos often went without their heavy equipment. The sea route was well over 3,000 miles making a V shape sailing along the Indian peninsula past Sri Lanka.

The reality was if PA could have contained the rebellion by Banglas it would have been a miracle. Let alone fending off a attack by India. A sober assessment woul;d have been to concede that PA could not hold 60 million people being fueled by India and let them go their way. But Pakistani ruling elite could not accept this and sadly we lost lot of brave men to a futile struggle and gave a soundbite to India which they still brag all these decades later.

 

[Null/Void]

Bangla was just a sideshow. The PA's primary concern was defending the 'home country' or West Pakistan. The western front was about 1,000 miles and open to attack as most is rolling semi-desert. Major cities like Lahore are only 15 miles from Indian frontier and lay exposed. Don't also overlook the massive population resource disparity between Pakistan and India which of course feeds into all other resources. This infographic is for today but it gives you a idea. India is a union of I believe 30 [?] states. Just one, Utter Pradesh has the same population as Pakistan.

View attachment 9523

Faced with such odds almost all the frontline units were deployed on the Western front. Other assets like most of the airforce also were deployed on the west. In fact questions had been raised as to why the east had miserably small force to which the strategy posited was "defence of the east lay in the west".

In fact the 55k number was elevated because in the previous 2 years the insurgents of the Mukhti Bahini [PKK in the Turkish context] supplied and trained by India was causing trouble. However because of the vast distance and Pakistan's very weak logistics reinforcements sent over to suppress the Mukhtos often went without their heavy equipment. The sea route was well over 3,000 miles making a V shape sailing along the Indian peninsula past Sri Lanka.

The reality was if PA could have contained the rebellion by Banglas it would have been a miracle. Let alone fending off a attack by India. A sober assessment woul;d have been to concede that PA could not hold 60 million people being fueled by India and let them go their way. But Pakistani ruling elite could not accept this and sadly we lost lot of brave men to a futile struggle and gave a soundbite to India which they still brag all these decades later.

Even if "East Pakistan" was saved a PKK like insurgency would have continued for decades

 

[ekemenirtu]

Bangla was just a sideshow. The PA's primary concern was defending the 'home country' or West Pakistan. The western front was about 1,000 miles and open to attack as most is rolling semi-desert. Major cities like Lahore are only 15 miles from Indian frontier and lay exposed. Don't also overlook the massive population resource disparity between Pakistan and India which of course feeds into all other resources. This infographic is for today but it gives you a idea. India is a union of I believe 30 [?] states. Just one, Utter Pradesh has the same population as Pakistan.

View attachment 9523

Faced with such odds almost all the frontline units were deployed on the Western front. Other assets like most of the airforce also were deployed on the west. In fact questions had been raised as to why the east had miserably small force to which the strategy posited was "defence of the east lay in the west".

In fact the 55k number was elevated because in the previous 2 years the insurgents of the Mukhti Bahini [PKK in the Turkish context] supplied and trained by India was causing trouble. However because of the vast distance and Pakistan's very weak logistics reinforcements sent over to suppress the Mukhtos often went without their heavy equipment. The sea route was well over 3,000 miles making a V shape sailing along the Indian peninsula past Sri Lanka.

The reality was if PA could have contained the rebellion by Banglas it would have been a miracle. Let alone fending off a attack by India. A sober assessment woul;d have been to concede that PA could not hold 60 million people being fueled by India and let them go their way. But Pakistani ruling elite could not accept this and sadly we lost lot of brave men to a futile struggle and gave a soundbite to India which they still brag all these decades later.

If I understand this correctly, essentially you are saying Pakistan lost fair and square.

It was an error, a monumental error, on their part to keep occupying Bangladesh.

Their military lacked popular support. If so, why even bother fighting for 9 months. Such a monumental error is indicative of the unprofessional nature of the Pakistani Armed Forces and its political elites.

 

[Kaptaan]

during the very first hours of war.

Even before it began. To give you context could a Turkish force of 55k men hold down all of France against very pissed of French and then also defeat a full scale attack by German Army moving into France? All this well over a 1,000 miles from Turkey?

I think defeat would be writ before even the first bullet was fired.

Ps. We must note that the entire Indian landmass separated both wings. Airflight over India was a no, no. Sea lanes risky given the Indian coast was still over 3,000 miles.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Even before it began. To give you context could a Turkish force of 55k men hold down all of France against very pissed of French and then also defeat a full scale attack by German Army moving into France? All this well over a 1,000 miles from Turkey?

I think defeat would be writ before even the first bullet was fired.

Ps. We must note that the entire Indian landmass separated both wings. Airflight over India was a no, no. Sea lanes risky given the Indian coast was still over 3,000 miles.

Does not make much sense.

They should have surrendered a lot earlier to the Bangladeshis so that their Indian enemies could not capture their troops.

And I believe that would have saved a lot of lives, limbs, property, dignity, bitterness and anger.

 

[Kaptaan]

Their military lacked popular support.

The military has always had support in Pakistan [West] but it was entirely hated by the Bengalis. Primarily because PA had very, very few Bengali soldiers. PA was and still is mostly a Punjabi/Pakhtun force recruited from the Nortth West Pakistan.

 

[ekemenirtu]

The military has always had support in Pakistan [West] but it was entirely hated by the Bengalis. Primarily because PA had very, very few Bengali soldiers. PA was and still is mostly a Punjabi/Pakhtun force recruited from the Nortth West Pakistan.

Then the Indians must be lauded for exploiting ethnic divide in Pakistan to the fullest. The Pakistanis have been unable to return the favour in 49 years now.

 

[Null/Void]

CBS News USA - Report - March 23, 1971 Bangladesh - YouTube

International opinion was firmly on the Bengali rebels @Kaptaan @Saiyan0321

 

[Jackdaws]

They won, that's why they care.

I suppose, Pakistan lost, and Pakistanis also cared quite a bit. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to fight so far away from home for many months (or was it years?), to kill and get killed and wounded, for no reason whatsoever.

Of course, if you ask Indians how much they care about 1962, or about 200 years of British rule, I suspect the response would not be pleasant. I may be wrong there. We will have to see.

Few points here -

I intend to cover the history of 1962 as well. Yes, it was a drubbing. No point denying it and history must not be obfuscated by insecure nationalism. British Rule? It wasn't just one war - British rule in India (both Company and Crown) would deserve a thread of its own. But within India, the history is quite well documented and the only point of divergence is how the Brits and Indians see the First War of Indian Independence of 1857 as the Brits insist on calling it the Sepoy Mutiny. Again, a topic which richly deserves a thread of its own.

Also, in case of "Pakistan fighting so far away from home" is a misnomer. East Pakistan housed 55% of the population of Pakistan. It was where the next elected PM of Pakistan was from. It was home.

 

[Sinan]

Thread cleaned. Please, don't flame or/and use abusive words. Thanks in advance.