Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Umigami]

I dont know about the detail, but indeed the fact that the pipe gas to Singapore has already been in the hand of Medco Energy, our national company where the owner is PDIP elite leader, will difficult our attempt to use it in a negotiation. Medco now has 2 gas field supplying Singapore, they (Arifin Panigoro and his son, Hilmi Panigoro) have very strong relationship with Singapore I believe.

But we will still get benefit with the extradition agreement and FIR deal despite not entirely being managed by us (which I think is still a good deal since we dont want to be busy managing planes that will take off and landing in Singapore airport/Changi). The deal will only be last in 20-25 years, then we can push more after that year since the gas will be negotiated again and possibly PDI-P will not win in that term that suggest we can use the pipe gas supply once again in our card.

The FIR deal will need to go to ICAO first as that is the international organization who regulate the FIR. Once ICAO delegate that to Indonesia, then it will be permanent just like how difficult for Indonesia to take the FIR from Singapore after 1946. Next negotiation after 20-25 years, our position is already much stronger than current one.

Any way Singapore will depend on Indonesia in their promise to the world about replacing their fossil fuel powered electricity into renewable energy, some inhabited islands in Riau province ( where once again Medco Energy project ) will be putted renewable energy project ( solar panel and maybe others ) and also our sea is used to connect Australia with Singapore to transmit electricity coming from solar panel.

Singapore I believe use some economic card to sweeten the deal, just Google where you can find news saying that some project in Batam, other island in Riau island province, and Tanjung Priok port will get huge Singapore funding.

I think there is no wrong in using some of our space and sea for their military training as long as permission should still be asked by them and with limited period of time every year. Singapore is not our threat, and better if we have stronger relationship with them than current one.

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Parliament Today under Jokowi is different with during SBY period. Jokowi is able to get 80 % support from parliament for their administration. Golkar is quite solid supporting Jokowi and even Prabowo (Gerindra) is supporting the deal. PPP is also quite solid since their leader has very important position in cabinet which is Bappenas Head.

This is end of this conversation now, it's already derail so much from Air Force matter.

If you all want to continue, bring it somewhere else!

 

[HellFireIndo]

The drones, are they going to be operated by AU?

 

[Van Kravchenko]

I think there is no wrong in using some of our space and sea for their military training as long as permission should still be asked by them and with limited period of time every year. Singapore is not our threat, and better if we have stronger relationship with them than current one.

Most of the Indonesian will not agree for this kind of deal. Even if it's a hostile or not using Indonesiam airspace for sole training for SAF and part of water for RSN will harm indonesian soverignity. Except that kind of stuff done within bilateral exercise event.

Even for the detail about FIR, Extradition, and Defence related aggrement not be floored.

Perhaps IDAF can train togater with SAF, especially to study more about F 16 and F 15

 

[Madokafc]

The drones, are they going to be operated by AU?

As far as i know, the Air Force, Army and Navy had their own need for large Type of UAV (typically MALE Type) while the Army and Air Force so far mentioned their own need must be armed capable Type.

 

[Umigami]

As far as i know, the Air Force, Army and Navy had their own need for large Type of UAV (typically MALE Type) while the Army and Air Force so far mentioned their own need must be armed capable Type.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488170725651406856

 

[HellFireIndo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488170725651406856

I can see much use of them in our future LHD

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488239662187507714

Artem only produces R-27 series missile. I think Alman is talking about air to ground PGM's here which we have very little btw. My wish is they re-allocate this for more AGM-65s instead. Or even stockpile more JDAM kits.

Indonesia buys 18 AGM-65K2, 36 TGM-65K2 + 3 TGM-65D maintenance missile for $25M back in 2012, just for comparison.

 

[Chestnut]

im asking what makes this Rafale deal is better than SU35 and also some details of it

The fact that the Rafale isn't used by the current security threat faced the the Indonesian Armed Forces comes pretty high on that list...

 

[Chestnut]

This is because while the idea sounds good, but we should also consider that drone technologies are not without their countermeasures. This is especially important given that we'll be dealing with some technologically advanced foreign powers that have already developed various technologies such as directed energy weapons. All in all, this means that we may not be able to achieve the same level of success in using unmanned aerial platform in combat as seen in the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan some time ago.

Note that not everyone has god-awful counter drone/AD capabilities such as Armenia. There's a reason why it's hard to replicate the successes made by another nation state in one conflict when you're fighting in another.

 

[Chestnut]

Let me make my stand here ... I'm a proponent of bebas-aktif policy . Yet , we haven't the strengh to backing those policy as yet ... Not even India were there yet too . So use everything and anything we could get with the least possible cost and future consequence .

You could really just chalk it up to the Indonesian mentality of "gampangin" at the end of the day.

 

[Chestnut]

The same situation could happen with China in near future. Once Indonesia follow the west to embargo their raw material supply (hypothetical scenario but strongly possible), there’s no other option for China than to knock our door and seize the kitchen.

China literally took over the the sovereign EEZ's of Philippines and Vietnam, with the latter having a president that was overtly pro-China at the time. There is absolutely no indication based on historical precedence that what you said is true.

 

[HellFireIndo]

The fact that the Rafale isn't used by the current security threat faced the the Indonesian Armed Forces comes pretty high on that list...

Honestly how sustainable Rafale could be? I personally don't think 36 + 15 is enough, and they do make our logistics chain complicated. I would assume they won't last that long, acting more like stopgap fighters similar to the Sukhois. Personally I would just push the KF-21 forward as our standard fighter in the future, even if its' "unproven" because after all, all fighters were unproven at some point in the past.

 

[Umigami]

Honestly how sustainable Rafale could be? I personally don't think 36 + 15 is enough, and they do make our logistics chain complicated. I would assume they won't last that long, acting more like stopgap fighters similar to the Sukhois. Personally I would just push the KF-21 forward as our standard fighter in the future, even if its' "unproven" because after all, all fighters were unproven at some point in the past.

Get a lot of F16v and FA50, that's the most logical this time actually.
(Still possible if SM give money not as much as 08 want)

 

[Chestnut]

Honestly how sustainable Rafale could be? I personally don't think 36 + 15 is enough, and they do make our logistics chain complicated. I would assume they won't last that long, acting more like stopgap fighters similar to the Sukhois. Personally I would just push the KF-21 forward as our standard fighter in the future, even if its' "unproven" because after all, all fighters were unproven at some point in the past.

It's not, it's literally a rip off much like the RAN's Attack-class Submarine program. When over 20 years of service in the French Air Force still only results in 55% availability rates and a price tag that exceeds it's competitors to beat, one can't help but raise questions if one were to procure things with sense.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

one can't help but raise questions if one were to procure things with sense.

Well...
Back then my mind still argue why in the first place the term of Rafale suddenly appear. I mean did the MOD really fufill IDAF req or MOD has his own agenda? .

What I try to say here , cmon for most of the time the birds who do CAP in Indonesian Terirory were F 16 and Hawk wich are single engined and cheap to operate. (their combat readyness also questioned).

Moreover, In the next following years Indonesia will be spammed with double engined fighter, such Rafale, KF 21, F15X (if the deal and the money are scured). Then We just can forget what is standarization and commonability for airplane sectios and rise the budget for weapons, fuels, and engine.


Geez... I don't know where this will went

 

[Maverick]

prime factor rafales comes up to table ( my version ) :

1. Its not US or Russian made jetfighters, why not typhoon? brits still US close ally compares to french bad boy
2. No one in south east asian operate it ( yet )...its a game changer. where as region already had f35 and f15. dont forget electronic and armament capability of rafale has.
3. aside a joke that he had two enggine, he still tier 1 jetfighters

 

[wahyu845]

Well...
Back then my mind still argue why in the first place the term of Rafale suddenly appear. I mean did the MOD really fufill IDAF req or MOD has his own agenda? .

What I try to say here , cmon for most of the time the birds who do CAP in Indonesian Terirory were F 16 and Hawk wich are single engined and cheap to operate. (their combat readyness also questioned).

Moreover, In the next following years Indonesia will be spammed with double engined fighter, such Rafale, KF 21, F15X (if the deal and the money are scured). Then We just can forget what is standarization and commonability for airplane sectios and rise the budget for weapons, fuels, and engine.


Geez... I don't know where this will went

The opinion that single engine aircraft are less reliable than twin engine aircraft is one of the reasons, seeing the previous incident (the downfall of the F 16 Blok 25, Hawk 109/209) may be a consideration for MOD to acquire a twin engine aircraft, but here what is ignored is the aspect of commonality and the maintenance costs of the aircraft, unless the MOD's intention is to want 2 aircraft, it is better to take the F 18 (because it has the same engine as the KFX) and of course the acquisition of many KFX (to achieve similarity) but reflecting on the aspect of combat readiness and maintenance costs of the F16 V option (which low cost) ,FA 50 is a wise choice until waiting for f 35 to come

 

[NEKO]

waiting for f 35 to come

Are you sure about that?

 

[wahyu845]

prime factor rafales comes up to table ( my version ) :

1. Its not US or Russian made jetfighters, why not typhoon? brits still US close ally compares to french bad boy
2. No one in south east asian operate it ( yet )...its a game changer. where as region already had f35 and f15. dont forget electronic and armament capability of rafale has.
3. aside a joke that he had two enggine, he still tier 1 jetfighters

It's true that one of the Rafale factors was chosen because of geopolitical factors that have to do with the experience of the US embargo in the past and the factor that there are no Rafale owners in this region so they don't know the advantages and disadvantages of Rafale then there is no downgrade factor in Rafale

 

[wahyu845]

Are you sure about that?

hope is like that (F 35) let's see