Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541767632520507392

This is all multirole fighter lol

 

[NEKO]

Is "Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU)" good enough?

...

Change this thread title to Indonesian Ministry of Finance (KEMENKEU), so members can talk and scrutinize them then create Indonesian Air Force thread where members can only discuss related things about the air force.
Because the OOT is already way over too much.

 

[FoodSoldier]

If I am not wrong there is a limit of how much foreign loan we can take (%? from GDP?).
MoF didn't led MoD by the nose and dictate what alutsista that we should buy. MoF not only need to handle foreign loan used for military equipment purchase but also for building infrastructure, factory, and we also have mega project of IKN etc. MoF can't allocate the capped foreign loan only for the sole purpose of obtaining military equipments, even the president won't allow that and that's why we usually buy stuff in several batch of small number, FFBNW, no weapons included etc. because the budget is limited.
If we take the complete deal of Rafale in a single step it might give too much burden for our APBN and thus we order in a small number first.
Should we call MoF as hindrance and sabotaging TNI modernization because of this? Should we focus on using all PLN (still within the allowed limit) solely on military equipments and abandon the others?
Even its possible that the $13.9 bil deal for F15EX will be split and we will order small number of F15EX at first, will it be MoF fault?

The military is a high priority but there is still other thing that also need to be allocated some budget, we need to look at the bigger perspective and not get too emotional just because its involve the military and also we our self is military enthusiast.

$125 billion loan for 25 years payment ($5 billion per year) is peanut bro

Indonesia new loan is $75 billion per-year. So defense sector got merely 6% of our total loan annually (if approved).

And for that $5 billion loan payment, mostly will come from Kemenhan own budget. So Kemenkeu has nothing to worry about. Not to mention some lenders will give 5 years grace period with considerably lower interest rates compared to existing Kemenkeu ‘loyal’ lenders.

So I think we have strong reason to scrutinize lapangan banteng about their willingness to support TNI modernization.

 

[NEKO]

mostly will come from Kemenhan own budget

And they got their money from MoF or should I say APBN.

 

[Umigami]

The salesman still try to push hard.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541860986595966978

 

[Umigami]

This has been long transformed into apathy which, personally, has actually affecting me in doing my own work. Take KF-21, for example. When other medias reported that SK will conduct its first flight soon, I'm too embarassed to publish anything about it since we're still not fully committed to it, even still trying to negotiate to lower our share.

How about publish this Mirage-gurun thing?
With enough public push, they may have to reconsider it.

 

[FoodSoldier]

And they got their money from MoF or should I say APBN.

That’s MoD money, should have 100% autonomy to use it based on their planning no?

 

[RadenSudirman]

...

Change this thread title to Indonesian Ministry of Finance (KEMENKEU), so members can talk and scrutinize them then create Indonesian Air Force thread where members can only discuss related things about the air force.
Because the OOT is already way over too much.

What are you talking about, the CONTEXT is clearly due to the supposed Mirage plan. Fighter jet acquisition is not related to TNI-AU according to you? And you can you with your own eye(s) those who signed the deal according to the video: Kemenkeu, and Bappenas.

If anything I want Kemenkeu to stay out of it so like in your wish to remain a "TNI-AU topic". But heck they are for some reason involved innit, so who is to scrutinize then, TNI-AU? they are not mentioned here weirdly.

You are a really snarky person, other members can see the point but you cannot. A sarcastic comment of yours is not contributing to the discussion. Which one is more properly "Air Force" topic? discussing the budget (mis)management of a fighter jet procurement, or making a sarcastic comment about changing the thread title due to inability to understand the context?

 

[FoodSoldier]

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you saying that MoF can order MoD on what to buy and what not to buy? For example, the recent case of buying Mirage 2000 was the result of MoF ordered MoD to buy it?

No lah, MoD is doing independent decision.

but the Mirage decision could be the result of MoF rigid policy on 15% RMP (for total Rafale contract of 42 airframes). To compensate the uncertainty of Rafale contract, MoD then looks into alternative of ready to use yet affordable airframes.

so MoF is indirectly pushing MoD into the decision.

 

[Lordimperator]

MoD then looks into alternative of ready to use yet affordable airframes.

Are there any 2ndhand Rafale left from France?
which one do you prefer 6 2ndhand Rafale or 14 2ndhand Mirage?

 

[FoodSoldier]

Are there any 2ndhand Rafale left from France?
which one do you prefer 6 2ndhand Rafale or 14 2ndhand Mirage?

Rafale second? I guess they’re still not affordable as per available budget (without big loan commitment).

 

[NEKO]

Are there any 2ndhand Rafale left from France?
which one do you prefer 6 2ndhand Rafale or 14 2ndhand Mirage?

Rafale second? I guess they’re still not affordable as per available budget (without big loan commitment).

Even the Greek second-hand Rafale are from the French Air Force, I think there is no Rafale gurun version just like the F16 in the boneyard.
No second-hand Rafale that is being stored in a large number, should we try to lobby to get it from the French AF tho? Cheaper than new Rafale yet still expensive.

 

[R4duga]

i remember seeing brochure about F-16 EMLU program also include JHMCS provision, are those helmet comes yet ?

 

[FPXAllen]

How about publish this Mirage-gurun thing?
With enough public push, they may have to reconsider it.

Well, although this issue seems valid enough, as long as there's still no official statement, it's still in the same category as "rumors".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about this issue came from third-hand sources, right? I'm just being pragmatic here, so eventhough the sources for whatever "rumors" out there can be trusted, this is how I was trained to do before writing anything:

Spoiler

 

[Gundala]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about this issue came from third-hand sources, right? I'm just being pragmatic here, so eventhough the sources for whatever "rumors" out there can be trusted, this is how I was trained to do before writing anything:

Love it, rumours were released for various reason: testing the water (public oppinion), counter adversary by dicrediting the opponent, checking foreign nation reaction (overseas oppinion), etc. I respect you for not publishing it altho this kind of things sometime have more "sell value". Thumbs up for you bro

Some of the information I see might be half of truth. Things like high inteterest rate and so forth might be reelated to risk and other things (yes I am aware about the what so called rahasia umum). For example; higher risk means more relaxing terms, lower risk equal to more strings attched to it whether it is related or not to the purchase it self. And in this case only certain eselon high ranking officials knows the detail. Just like how we got very low interest offer from certain country back then for a certain project, turned out there are too many string attached to it that in the end diminish the economic multiplier effect domestically. Trust me its not all about interest when it comes to foreign loan.

Back to the AU; from here I stand there are already some understanding from higher ranking AU officers with 08 to carry the program together and that is very important for program continuation. If we remember not to long ago there was join statement between 08 and SM about how the kementrian bendahara will support the defence procurement. That is political statement to counter issue about how certain kementrian seems reluctant to support.

Now let me throw a wild FALSE INFORMATION just for arguments sake and making a point; UEA or Qatar is willing to support our Rafale purchase via Loan but with a certain conditions. One of the condition is for us to purchase excess Mirage fighters?? Is the Mirage rumour purchase beginning to make sense now??

 

[NEKO]

Now let me throw a wild FALSE INFORMATION just for arguments sake and making a point; UEA or Qatar is willing to support our Rafale purchase via Loan but with a certain conditions. One of the condition is for us to purchase excess Mirage fighters?? Is the Mirage rumour purchase beginning to make sense now??

Jokowi will visit UAE after Russia.
hm...

Jokowi to discuss investment cooperation with UAE

President Joko Widodo (Jokowi) will visit the United Arab Emirates (UAE) to discuss economic and investment cooperation on the last leg of his overseas trip ...

en.antaranews.com

 

[Umigami]

Well, although this issue seems valid enough, as long as there's still no official statement, it's still in the same category as "rumors".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about this issue came from third-hand sources, right? I'm just being pragmatic here, so eventhough the sources for whatever "rumors" out there can be trusted, this is how I was trained to do before writing anything:

Spoiler

Love it, rumours were released for various reason: testing the water (public oppinion), counter adversary by dicrediting the opponent, checking foreign nation reaction (overseas oppinion), etc. I respect you for not publishing it altho this kind of things sometime have more "sell value". Thumbs up for you bro

Some of the information I see might be half of truth. Things like high inteterest rate and so forth might be reelated to risk and other things (yes I am aware about the what so called rahasia umum). For example; higher risk means more relaxing terms, lower risk equal to more strings attched to it whether it is related or not to the purchase it self. And in this case only certain eselon high ranking officials knows the detail. Just like how we got very low interest offer from certain country back then for a certain project, turned out there are too many string attached to it that in the end diminish the economic multiplier effect domestically. Trust me its not all about interest when it comes to foreign loan.

Back to the AU; from here I stand there are already some understanding from higher ranking AU officers with 08 to carry the program together and that is very important for program continuation. If we remember not to long ago there was join statement between 08 and SM about how the kementrian bendahara will support the defence procurement. That is political statement to counter issue about how certain kementrian seems reluctant to support.

Now let me throw a wild FALSE INFORMATION just for arguments sake and making a point; UEA or Qatar is willing to support our Rafale purchase via Loan but with a certain conditions. One of the condition is for us to purchase excess Mirage fighters?? Is the Mirage rumour purchase beginning to make sense now??

I think we will get the answer after Jokowi visit to UAE.

 

[flogger]

Chaotic enugh abaut this mirage thing..

Some say they phused it for " commanality " of using the frenchie thing before rafale is on duty..

Many of you guys here may still remember about the " simmilar " case of about the yak 130..?

So back in the day's "they" suggest to purchase some number of this for " commonality" for operating the shukoi flanker keep in mind we previously plan to accomadate 100+ of flanker so yak 130 is needed for transition before flying flanker. See what happened today..? So..?

And now is this mirage thing its just the dejavu. The lander is ready the sponsor is ready to. just say yes and they make it happen for us .they told us " Il'l Give you everything you've been dreaming of
Just let me in, ooh"

And like we all think again it struck and stuck to our birocracy...RMP....etc..in the end...?

Just noice lets just dont take it for granted about this news.

For me well i choose sitting in the cornerd with a nice view take some " udud " and a cup off coffee tubruk enjoying free wifi and bring a big poster sign "Hura Percoyo yen hura ono Foto barange teko kene ".

Regard.

 

[FPXAllen]

altho this kind of things sometime have more "sell value".

I'm probably what you can call the last generation of "old school" journalists who were formally educated in the craft. Aside from practicing typing on the good ol' typewriters that we had to own and carry ourselves from the "kosan" to the campus and back, we also had a taste of manual press printing using machines built in the 1920s. Yes, that one in which we assembled the letters piece by piece on a plate by hand, not much different than how Guttenberg did it in the 1450s.

While on one hand, we have this shared idealism among us, on the other hand, it made things a bit difficult to produce "news" for online media, especially the ones which prioritize quantity over accuracy. And when you factor sensationalism and clickbait into the equation, well you know the rest...

Some of the information I see might be half of truth.

There's information and misinformation - of which the latter is usually the result of sloppy 'journalism' - and there's also disinformation which is purposely designed to mislead and deceptive. And yes, we were trained in both the first and the last one.

Jokowi will visit UAE after Russia.
hm...

Hmm, indeed.

"Hura Percoyo yen hura ono Foto barange teko kene

Or until those officials publicly released their statements. But even then there are still chances that it's not true information.

Specifically, about this Mirage brouhaha, we shall see how things turn out. But as they stand right now, I don't want to report anything about it yet.

As for KF-21... Just pay the @41*!^%#! share, dammit!

 

[schuimpjes]

There's information and misinformation - of which the latter is usually the result of sloppy 'journalism' - and there's also disinformation which is purposely designed to mislead and deceptive. And yes, we were trained in both the first and the last one.

Yup there are 3 terms about it with different meaning.

–Misinformation: False information without intention to smear anyone
–Disinformation: False information that intended to smear
–Malinformation: Information that also can be right that intended to give malade or destroy reputation of those targeted.

Big thanks to Nina Jankowicz if i remember correctly, explained these during interview before she was became disinformation czar that criticized by US conservatives and The Squad’s supporters.

Even Reagan had something like that called Active Measures Working Group that was known for its success debunked Soviet’s Operation Infektion.