Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Umigami

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Why do they have to let you in the supply chain if you are not abiding to the contract?.
That's a hope after we solve this payment problem.

Years ago at the start of this program, we though we can produce, assemble and modify IFX on our own, just forget about that now.
 

Chocopie

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Correction, Percentage does matter, National Law demanded that local content minimum of 25%, atleast if that minimum percentage fulfilled, we could build it locally to fulfill domestic market.
I don't understand your "logic". If Indonesia doesn't buy minimum 36 or more T-50/FA-50, there won't be any chance of local production. And no chance of license production if Indonesia doesn't pay billions of dollars.
 

this is crunch

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I don't understand your "logic". If Indonesia doesn't buy minimum 36 or mor T-50/FA-50, there won't be any chance of local production. And no chance of license production if Indonesia doesn't buy planes worth billions of dollars.
Well, if you look at Indonesia's industry since past, we always opt to license to build it locally, Let's say the Light Frigate Sigma 10514, we only order 2 unit of it and able to build it at local shipyard, Now, the AH140 / Merah Putih Frigate, Iver Huitfeld derivation, on progress to build 2 unit locally, we able to get the license of production.

I think that is not apple to apple because of ship with aircraft, but then let see this

The NAS332 Super Puma

"11 helikopter di bawah lisensi Puma NSA330s dari French Sud-Aeronautique diproduksi dan dikirim ke Angkatan Udara Indonesia.

Pada tahun yang sama, IPTN mulai memproduksi 20 unit di bawah lisensi Super Puma Family NAS332s dari French Aerospatiale (sekarang Airbus Helicopter) yang sebagian besar untuk Pasukan Udara Indonesia."

Translation

"11 helicopter under license of Puma NSA330s from French Sud-Aeronautique have been produced and sent to Indonesian Air Force

On the same year, IPTN (Nowadays is Indonesian Aerospace - IAe or PT. Dirgantara Indonesia) began the 20 unit production under license of Super Puma Family NAS332s from French Aerospatiale (Nowadays Airbus Helicopter) which most of it used in Indonesian Air Force."



You can see the pattern here, Indonesia since past always produce locally under license for only domestic market, and the number of unit is not always big. So with this example, i think it's possible to get the license of production, for small number, only for Indonesian market.

The Economic logic does doesn't apply here, why would you license the production for only small numbers?, well, there are many factors contribute to this, mainly is political and the limited budget,
but when we able to contibute ourselves to the project, we still gaining some benefit. Let's say we able to do Major maintenance, upgrade, and modified it to our very needs.
 

Chocopie

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Well, if you look at Indonesia's industry since past, we always opt to license to build it locally, Let's say the Light Frigate Sigma 10514, we only order 2 unit of it and able to build it at local shipyard, Now, the AH140 / Merah Putih Frigate, Iver Huitfeld derivation, on progress to build 2 unit locally, we able to get the license of production.

I think that is not apple to apple because of ship with aircraft, but then let see this

The NAS332 Super Puma

"11 helikopter di bawah lisensi Puma NSA330s dari French Sud-Aeronautique diproduksi dan dikirim ke Angkatan Udara Indonesia.

Pada tahun yang sama, IPTN mulai memproduksi 20 unit di bawah lisensi Super Puma Family NAS332s dari French Aerospatiale (sekarang Airbus Helicopter) yang sebagian besar untuk Pasukan Udara Indonesia."

Translation

"11 helicopter under license of Puma NSA330s from French Sud-Aeronautique have been produced and sent to Indonesian Air Force

On the same year, IPTN (Nowadays is Indonesian Aerospace - IAe or PT. Dirgantara Indonesia) began the 20 unit production under license of Super Puma Family NAS332s from French Aerospatiale (Nowadays Airbus Helicopter) which most of it used in Indonesian Air Force."



You can see the pattern here, Indonesia since past always produce locally under license for only domestic market, and the number of unit is not always big. So with this example, i think it's possible to get the license of production, for small number, only for Indonesian market.

The Economic logic does doesn't apply here, why would you license the production for only small numbers?, well, there are many factors contribute to this, mainly is political and the limited budget,
but when we able to contibute ourselves to the project, we still gaining some benefit. Let's say we able to do Major maintenance, upgrade, and modified it to our very needs.
There's also a pattern at KAI: no license production for small orders.
Small order gives a good chance of simply assembling delivered parts.
Poland ordered 48 FA-50 for $3 billion and didn't get license production rights.
 

this is crunch

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And no chance of license production if Indonesia doesn't pay billions of dollars.
And does the license itself needs to be on billions of dollar? if so, then why we could build our own Light Frigate Sigma 10514 with reasonable cost? then the AH140 Frigate with only $1.1 billion in total?, means the license is included in the fees right?


Also i just notice, what you meant licence of production means full license of production, but on the other hand what i meant of license of production is just the license to build-assemble and use some local content.
 

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There's also a pattern in Korean MIC: no license production for small orders.
Poland ordered 48 FA-50 for $3 billion and didn't get license production rights.
Isn't the $3 billion is the price to get 48 FA-50?,

Did Poland also ask for Transfer Of Technology included? No

Did Korea offer it to build it in Poland? No
 

Chocopie

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Isn't the $3 billion is the price to get 48 FA-50?,

Did Poland also ask for Transfer Of Technology included? No

Did Korea offer it to build it in Poland? No
They would have had to pay more than $3 billion for ToT and license production. Building a domestic aerospace tech sector in Poland would have driven the costs further higher. It's not only KAI's sole decision but also Lockheed Martin with IP rights for aerospace technologies.

For now Poland license-builds airframes and other parts for their 96x AH-64E Apache procurement worth $12 billion.
 

Chocopie

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And does the license itself needs to be on billions of dollar? if so, then why we could build our own Light Frigate Sigma 10514 with reasonable cost? then the AH140 Frigate with only $1.1 billion in total?, means the license is included in the fees right?


Also i just notice, what you meant licence of production means full license of production, but on the other hand what i meant of license of production is just the license to build-assemble and use some local content.
I dunno much about Indonesian shipbuilding and license deals with European companies. Producing a steel hull in your domestic shipyard isn't a high cost factor or high technology: main driving costs are sophisticated radars, sensors, CIW, CMS, missiles and armament that Indonesia doesn't produce themselves.
 

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They would had to pay more than $3 billion for ToT and license production.
It's not only KAI's sole decision but also Lockheed Martin with IP rights for aerospace technologies.
Well yes ofcourse we would have to pay more if we want to get the license, but it is very unlikely that the sole license would be in Billions of dollar, what are you thinking, are we gonna have to pay the cost of their R&D also?

I understand, but the cost of LICENSE is not in billions of dollar

I dunno much about Indonesian shipbuilding and license deals with European companies. Producing a steel hull in your domestic shipyard isn't a high cost factor or high technology: main driving costs are sophisticated radars, sensors, CIW, CMS, missiles and armament that Indonesia doesn't produce themselves.

Yes, Don't mix it up, the sensors and the structure are 2 different things, and we are not talking about the sensors, weapon and whatsoever, we are talking about the structures, be it airframes or ship hull only, and the cost of license of production

I know if we want to get the license of T/FA-50 we have to buy it from KAI first, If we already paid the whole jet. Then we have to pay the License fees and built it in Indonesia. Right?

Therefore i'm not talking about licensing the radar, HUD, or missiles. Im just talking about the Airframe. Be it i included with those sensors and weapon or not.

Thats only my point from the beginning, It's that simple,
 

Chocopie

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Well yes ofcourse we would have to pay more if we want to get the license, but it is very unlikely that the sole license would be in Billions of dollar, what are you thinking, are we gonna have to pay the cost of their R&D also?

I understand, but the cost of LICENSE is not in billions of dollar



Yes, Don't mix it up, the sensors and the structure are 2 different things, and we are not talking about the sensors, weapon and whatsoever, we are talking about the structures, be it airframes or ship hull only, and the cost of license of production

I know if we want to get the license of T/FA-50 we have to buy it from KAI first, If we already paid the whole jet. Then we have to pay the License fees and built it in Indonesia. Right?

Therefore i'm not talking about licensing the radar, HUD, or missiles. Im just talking about the Airframe. Be it i included with those sensors and weapon or not.

Thats only my point from the beginning, It's that simple,
License production costs aren't separated from procurement costs. Defense companies only give you a chance of license production if you buy a guaranteed amount of the product. There are no strictly separated costs for a number of planes/ships/tanks and the license costs.

It's often negotiated as an offset deal: if you buy XY planes/ships/tanks for $XY millions/billions than you'll get license production or assembly worth $XY millions.

Simply assembling parts doesn't give you the needed know how to develop your homegrown fighter jet industry. It is only one step of many to independently engineer, design and build up domestic production processes and facilities. Indonesia had the chance with KF-21 to learn about fighter jet engineering, designing, testing to secure knowledge for future projects like I-22 Sekatan. This is how Korea built up their aerospace (ship, car, chemical, steel and semiconductor) industry step by step over decades. But the ruling Indonesian administration blew it by not paying the costs and calling back their engineers and technicians during COVID etc.
 
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Umigami

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Looking at other cases (Korea, Turkiye, Canada, Japan)
They had to buy in a very significant numbers to be able to get license to produce Fighter jets locally.
 

Madokafc

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Indonesian in the past always bought bulk to get license agreement

The example is NC212 the agreement is Indonesia bought and build 100 aircraft, and here they are with many still flying today though more are already retired

There is also CN235, thats why even some commuter airliner like Merpati flying CN235 at the time, i am forget the exact number but Indonesia did bought a lot of them back then

In the past Indonesia also bought 40 Hawk 100/200 series is for getting license produce agreement with BAE. With the number needed to produce in Indonesia can reach more than 100 i hear back then

It just after reform we don't have much opportunity to purchase big weapon system in bulk number, and only recently though we do that. For any Korean here, this drama maybe annoying but don't let it clout your judgement as though Indonesia South Korea relationship in military cooperation should be much better after current administration
 

norman88

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And there is a small private company in Indonesia that want to make a stealth fighter.

Start small first, make a simple non stealth single engine fighter.
Crawl, walk then run don't straight up just start with a parkour.
You mean I-22 Sikatan? It's not a stealth fighter, just 4.5 gen LCA.
 

norman88

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It doesn't have to be delta canard configuration though. Keep it simple.
If this project runs, it takes at least 15 years or more, also requires a lot of budget. So, It's even better if you make the best design. Have some vision, no wasting time and budget to create "just a simple product".
 

Umigami

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If this project runs, it takes at least 15 years or more, also requires a lot of budget. So, It's even better if you make the best design. Have some vision, no wasting time and budget to create "just a simple product".
But LCA suppose to be simple.
Look at Tejas, L15, M346, FA50, etc.
 

norman88

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But LCA suppose to be simple.
Look at Tejas, L15, M346, FA50, etc.
LCA developed in early 2000s vs LCA developed (probably) in mid 2020s. Can't be compared at all, even in the year I-22 launched, the sixth generation aircraft may already be in operation.
 

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