Indonesia Indonesian Army,Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Darat (TNI-AD)

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536585793237565440

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536585793237565440

Pindad made?

Rip for the fallen soldier

 

[flogger]

nah, to expensive, let alone 6x6x truck conf, its already enough with it's Digital FCS, no need to aim at aim pole again, just shoot and scoot.

but, to think to buy outdated m109 from US and equip it with PZH 155/L52 gun and computer, that would be nice.

Is it would be nice if we just buy k9 than paladin with pzh

 

[Jagdflieger]

Is it would be nice if we just buy k9 than paladin with pzh

Without wanting to raise a hornets nest, please allow me the following question.
Who is it that Indonesia needs e.g. heavy artillery for? To attack or defend against e.g. Malaysia, Singapore or the Philippines?
In that context; Is any of you military enthusiasts or maybe service members, familiar with the Indonesian MOD White-Book?

 

[Lordimperator]

Who is it that Indonesia needs e.g. heavy artillery for? To attack or defend against e.g. Malaysia, Singapore or the Philippines?

I do wondering the same question sometimes, especially the latest rumour about Khan SRBM for our army.
History dictates Malaysia, with our land border with Sabah & Sarawak.

 

[Jagdflieger]

....History dictates Malaysia, with our land border with Sabah & Sarawak.....

Well in that case or scenario, the Indonesian Police forces should suffice.

 

[flogger]

Without wanting to raise a hornets nest, please allow me the following question.
Who is it that Indonesia needs e.g. heavy artillery for? To attack or defend against e.g. Malaysia, Singapore or the Philippines?
In that context; Is any of you military enthusiasts or maybe service members, familiar with the Indonesian MOD White-Book?

To attack ..?? No..it just a tools for preserving our fredoom....

 

[NEKO]

Without wanting to raise a hornets nest, please allow me the following question.
Who is it that Indonesia needs e.g. heavy artillery for? To attack or defend against e.g. Malaysia, Singapore or the Philippines?
In that context; Is any of you military enthusiasts or maybe service members, familiar with the Indonesian MOD White-Book?

Mostly for defence, against whom? Whoever wants to be our enemies.
Its better to have it now and be proficient with it and have it ready to be deployed when needed rather than be late.

The main concern for Indonesia that is always mentioned in white-book is internal security, and SCS issue get more attention recently.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Okay, but that still would beg the question as to against or towards whom Indonesia needs to defend it's freedom via heavy artillery? IMO certainly not towards internal security.

 

[FPXAllen]

Without wanting to raise a hornets nest, please allow me the following question.
Who is it that Indonesia needs e.g. heavy artillery for? To attack or defend against e.g. Malaysia, Singapore or the Philippines?
In that context; Is any of you military enthusiasts or maybe service members, familiar with the Indonesian MOD White-Book?

This is an interesting question with a range of possible answers.

But my take is this: Having heavy artillery batteries and the troops to man them as well as the skills needed to operate them - eventhough it seems that there are no immediate threats suitable for their deployment - is better than not having them at all. We can always adjust their deployment according to the operational needs which, I believe, will gravitate more toward long-range precision strike with just a few rounds at a time rather than the "classic" artillery barrage like in the World War II, for example.

A similar arqument can be brought up regarding the decision of the Indonesian Army when they decided to purchase Leopard 2 MBTs. Eventhough each of the tanks weighs more than 50 tons that puts more limit to their area of operation in the Indonesian archipelago compared to continental Europe, but we can never say for sure that they will never be needed if or when the situation calls for them. Of course, we need more lighter modern tanks which are better suited for Indonesian infrastructures and various terrains, but these tanks are still not the "one fits all" solution if we talk about possible defense scenarios that Indonesia might have to face one day.

 

[NEKO]

Okay, but that still would beg the question as to against or towards whom Indonesia needs to defend it's freedom via heavy artillery? IMO certainly not towards internal security.

I don't know.

But would love to have bunch of it stationed in Kalimantan / Borneo.

 

[NEKO]

Land based ASHM is also equipment that is good to have for Indonesia and its also not used for internal security, and there is no enemy/target for it yet, but that doesn't mean it is bad idea to have, the same goes for Submarine etc.
There is no enemy for Indonesia but Indonesia should always be ready if there is some that want to be our enemy.

The process of acquiring such weapons and mastering it is long, but the time for a conflict suddenly knocking at your door is short.

 

[FPXAllen]

There is no enemy for Indonesia but Indonesia should always be ready if there is some that want to be our enemy.

The perks (and drawbacks) of being a country with a "free and active" foreign policy: Our potential friends are also our potential enemies...

Or in Betawi style: Ente jual ane beli

Anyway, @Jagdflieger this is some old tweets from @JATOSINT about our Navy's canceled plan to launch amphibous landing operation in Somalia in 2011. You can see that they put two 105mm howitzers on the helipad of KRI Banjarmasin LPD, deck damage be damned if those howitzers were actually needed to be used:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199641127533432832

 

[NEKO]

The perks (and drawbacks) of being a country with a "free and active" foreign policy: Our potential friends are also our potential enemies...

Or in Betawi style: Ente jual ane beli

We always must be ready to "bacok" when someone "senggol" us.
But mostly situ sopan kami segan apply.
Hey we are focusing to build our economy and wellbeing, our govt going all over the places for trade and investment, pretty much prefer a stable and peaceful environment, but some country love being an expansionist and cause trouble.

 

[Jagdflieger]

This is an interesting question with a range of possible answers.

But my take is this: Having heavy artillery batteries and the troops to man them as well as the skills needed to operate them - eventhough it seems that there are no immediate threats suitable for their deployment - is better than not having them at all. We can always adjust their deployment according to the operational needs which, I believe, will gravitate more toward long-range precision strike with just a few rounds at a time rather than the "classic" artillery barrage like in the World War II, for example.

A similar arqument can be brought up regarding the decision of the Indonesian Army when they decided to purchase Leopard 2 MBTs. Eventhough each of the tanks weighs more than 50 tons that puts more limit to their area of operation in the Indonesian archipelago compared to continental Europe, but we can never say for sure that they will never be needed if or when the situation calls for them. Of course, we need more lighter modern tanks which are better suited for Indonesian infrastructures and various terrains, but these tanks are still not the "one fits all" solution if we talk about possible defense scenarios that Indonesia might have to face one day.

The reason for my asking:

A White-book outlines the anticipated threats towards outside enemies or countries constituting a potential threat to the security of e.g. Indonesia. It does not reflect upon internal issues (normally).
As such a long term planing ensues in regards to purchasing weapon systems that would help to support the territorial integrity of Indonesia towards outside influences/potential aggressors (This long term planing helps also to avoid hopping from one defense layout (weapon systems/equipment to another), thus also never being in line with the according long-term defense budget.

Let's leave these nice and peaceful Malay people aside. The only outside power that could pose a serious threat to Indonesia (especially in regards to a feasible occupation of Indonesian territory) are IMO the USA and China. Theoretically yes Singapore might eye into in-cooperating Pulau Batam etc. (hantam Batam)

If so, what can a couple of heavy artillery units or 60 Leo tanks do about it?
Indonesia's vulnerability lies in the sea and the air. As such a White-Book would concentrate an an effective Navy (including static maritime defense systems) and Air-force before anything else.
So I am sorry if I should sound like a lecturer - not my intention at all, I just wonder as to what Indonesia's White book is about.
As for Malaysia I am aware that they don't even have one (not a real one anyway in the sense of it) as such happy spending on all kind of useless stuff continuous.

 

[NEKO]

Indonesia's vulnerability lies in the sea and the air. As such a White-Book would concentrate an an effective Navy and Air-force before anything else.

The army always get more attentions compared to other branch, it is just recently that the air force and navy get more attention.
The army have been the "golden boy" for a long time.

 

[NEKO]

Anyway, @Jagdflieger this is some old tweets from @JATOSINT about our Navy's canceled plan to launch amphibous landing operation in Somalia in 2011. You can see that they put two 105mm howitzers on the helipad of KRI Banjarmasin LPD, deck damage be damned if those howitzers were actually needed to be used:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199641127533432832

Won't be as accurate as the naval gun from the escorting KRI, but won't hurt to carry it for another scenario.

So its possible (diplomatically) to launch amphibious operation?

 

[FPXAllen]

The reason for my asking:

A White-book outlines the anticipated threats towards outside enemies or countries constituting a potential threat to the security of e.g. Indonesia. It does not reflect upon internal issues (normally).
As such a long term planing ensues in regards to purchasing weapon systems that would help to support the territorial integrity of Indonesia towards outside influences/potential aggressors (This long term planing helps also to avoid hopping from one defense layout (weapon systems/equipment to another), thus also never being in line with the according long-term defense budget.

Let's leave these nice and peaceful Malay people aside. The only outside power that could pose a serious threat to Indonesia (especially in regards to a feasible occupation of Indonesian territory) are IMO the USA and China. Theoretically yes Singapore might eye into in-cooperating Pulau Batam etc. (hantam Batam)

If so, what can a couple of heavy artillery units or 60 Leo tanks do about it?
Indonesia's vulnerability lies in the sea and the air. As such a White-Book would concentrate an an effective Navy and Air-force before anything else.
So I am sorry if I should sound like a lecturer - not my intention at all, I just wonder as to what Indonesia's White book is about.
As for Malaysia I am aware that they don't even have one (not a real one anyway in the sense of it) as such happy spending on all kind of useless stuff continuous.

Ah, I see your points.

Regarding Indonesian defense white book (or white paper), as far as I know the latest release was in 2015. There was no direct mention of any specific country as possible threat which - from my own perspective - was due to our "habit" (if you can call it that way) of "playing both sides" or putting each foot on one side. However, while it's not as encompassing as a white book, there's clearly a recognition of a certain country that is now being considered as having more potential to threaten Indonesia's sovereignty by direct action. This was shown in the document during the Indonesian Armed Forces officers training course a couple of years back.

Due to the nature of the country's geography, the heavy stuffs like army's MBTs and howitzers are usually stationed in certain islands where invasions will likely to happen. This is also a weakness, I presume, because it basically tied each of those units to where they are stationed and turned them as a defensive forces with limited mobility.

In this case, howitzers and heavy tanks will be used by the army as bulwark against enemy invasion forces until the defending forces can be reinforced or destroyed altogether.

However, I also believe that the Indonesian armed forces as a whole also recognizes that due to the nature of the archipelago itself Indonesia should also be able to address potential outside threats before they even crossed our sea borders and airspaces because, aside from land borders with Malaysia in North Borneo, East Timor and Papua New Guinea, there are only those two kind of borders elsewhere. This is why starting from the last decade or so, the procurement portions for the Navy and Air Force have gradually increased - dramatically so in the last few years.

PS: I don't feel like I'm being lectured, so no problem there. In fact, I'm happy to have this dialogue although I must admit that my knowledge is still severely lacking compared to some other Indonesian members here who I hope can and willing to share their thoughts as well.

Anyway, sorry for being curious. As a German living in China, how do you see the Chinese populace's perspective regarding the issues specifically in relation to the standoff in the North Natuna Sea? Yes, I know that China has protested our decision to change the name of the location, and also yes, that I have some preconception regarding the answer to the question, but I still like to know from someone who still live there.

 

[FPXAllen]

So its possible (diplomatically) to launch amphibious operation?

The Somalian government - or whoever that was considered as one back then - have given their permission to do it if it was necessary.

 

[Synders]

Is it would be nice if we just buy k9 than paladin with pzh

I kinda wonder about the relevancy of tracked SPH for our "future" heavy brigade. Does it really need to be tracked or a wheeled one like Caesar is enough to support Leo??? I think they don't really need to have the same offroad capabilities as MBT because they don't need to maneuver closely with them...

Of course for IFV/APC that accompany MBT its better to be tracked because they need to maneuver alongside them. But for SPH who only need to shoot and scoot???