Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

Anmdt

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Madokafc

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Again they are too ambitious to be fully capable of producing submarines from 2032 on.
Commercial market from 2042 if any remains.
No need fuss, they are restarting entire ToT procedures switching from one echole to another. Skilled welders and technicians from CBG should be scrubbing commercial tankers already.

That's why i am actually still insist to renegotiated the terms with second CBG contract and goes on with the order and also trying to fixed the bugs if they are actually exist

And also put the order for TKMS 214 class Submarine with offset in components contract (as Indonesia very lacking in components industry) as they are developed from U209 class
 

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That's why i am actually still insist to renegotiated the terms with second CBG contract and goes on with the order and also trying to fixed the bugs if they are actually exist
Given that MoD now buddy to buddy with France, did DSME still has chance?
 

R4duga

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judging from "80 days endurance" and "increased diesel oil and food capacity (corresponding to larger storage and fuel tank)", looks like they are offering "Riachuelo" in those presentation sheet.

no mention of AIP either.
1680016885505.png
 

Anmdt

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That's why i am actually still insist to renegotiated the terms with second CBG contract and goes on with the order and also trying to fixed the bugs if they are actually exist

And also put the order for TKMS 214 class Submarine with offset in components contract (as Indonesia very lacking in components industry) as they are developed from U209 class
CBG was the only option to master submarine construction, MRO upgrades. It is not merely about construction equipment, rig, hall or knowledge. One needs an experienced crew to conduct tests through MRO or monitor the MRO process.

And true second likely option was to remain within same echole with Type 214 - 218, a lot to learn, but at least major - minor equipment and systems would be retained as common.

Lastly, scorpene is a far superior submarine and this comes at a greater price. To operate 10+ scorpenes Indonesia should be operating a navy similar to Japan. However i don't see this viable neither financially or technically in foreseeable future.

Better sell CBGs and add + 2 scorpenes to make per unit price feasible, after all those newly purchased equipment and refurbished - built construction halls, instead of living in a dream of selling scorpene-class submarines in 2040s.
 

Parry Brima

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CBG was the only option to master submarine construction, MRO upgrades. It is not merely about construction equipment, rig, hall or knowledge. One needs an experienced crew to conduct tests through MRO or monitor the MRO process.

And true second likely option was to remain within same echole with Type 214 - 218, a lot to learn, but at least major - minor equipment and systems would be retained as common.

Lastly, scorpene is a far superior submarine and this comes at a greater price. To operate 10+ scorpenes Indonesia should be operating a navy similar to Japan. However i don't see this viable neither financially or technically in foreseeable future.

Better sell CBGs and add + 2 scorpenes to make per unit price feasible, after all those newly purchased equipment and refurbished - built construction halls, instead of living in a dream of selling scorpene-class submarines in 2040s.

I'd argue that ToT cooperation requires long term commitment. The biggest question is how we see Sokor and France as our strategic geopolitical partner in the future.

There's a general feeling that Indonesia would like to "switch bloc" for the long term and see France as the most geopolitically strategic option (security, economy, ToT independency, etc).

It seems that the feeling is reciprocal as well as France see Indonesia as among the most strategic long-term partners in Indo-Pacific (especially after AUKUS).

I might be wrong, but I don't really mind restarting all the ToT process with the new long-term partner/s. We always scream about the limited strategic technology from Sokor ToT, well France is much more independent in that regard.

Now it's all about the money, i.e. the commitment from the gov/President.
 

Lordimperator

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Better sell CBGs and add + 2 scorpenes to make per unit price feasible, after all those newly purchased equipment and refurbished - built construction halls, instead of living in a dream of selling scorpene-class submarines in 2040s.
CBG *Nagapasa class? to whom? Philppines?
if MoD opt for scorpene hopefully they will phased out 209 and dsme1400 gradually for commonality sake
 

Parry Brima

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Good job, masbros!

"Li-Ion could be installed later during Mid-Life Upgrade"

I really want this technology than AIP. I assume the Li-ion technology is not ready now from Naval Group.

So it means now we order the std diesel electric sub, then to be upgraded later with Li-ion once the technology is ready.

No AIP means cheaper sub, no? :D
 

NEKO

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I really want this technology than AIP. I assume the Li-ion technology is not ready now from Naval Group.
What about using product from other supplier for the battery, and is this even possible (not the technical but the green light and paperwork).
Does Li-ion battery for submarine available openly on the market?
 

Anmdt

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I'd argue that ToT cooperation requires long term commitment. The biggest question is how we see Sokor and France as our strategic geopolitical partner in the future.

There's a general feeling that Indonesia would like to "switch bloc" for the long term and see France as the most geopolitically strategic option (security, economy, ToT independency, etc).

It seems that the feeling is reciprocal as well as France see Indonesia as among the most strategic long-term partners in Indo-Pacific (especially after AUKUS).

I might be wrong, but I don't really mind restarting all the ToT process with the new long-term partner/s. We always scream about the limited strategic technology from Sokor ToT, well France is much more independent in that regard.

Now it's all about the money, i.e. the commitment from the gov/President.
Although blocks are not meant to be switched by 2 years of intervals. Long term committment also requires the reliability. If NG is not guarenteed a long cooperation and prone to face what DSME / Damen / Fincantieri has been through then nothing will change, which refers to 'no progress'.

The ToT process will keep resetting since the time gap between partners will yield a profit - oriented shipyard to relocate submarine hall workers into commercial or other vessels.

Submarine building, maintenance and operation is entirely about traditions and culture. I know shipyards who does not change the section (section of the submarine ) of the welders just to keep their hand steady and train their own apprentices.
 

Umigami

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I just realized, NG AIP is FC2G which is liquid oxygen based not liquid Hydrogen.


Is it as expensive to refuel it?
 

R4duga

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I just realized, NG AIP is FC2G which is liquid oxygen based not liquid Hydrogen.


Is it as expensive to refuel it?
they do use hydrogen for the fuel cell, the difference between TKMS AIP and the Naval Group AIP is NG AIP hydrogen is generated onboard, both AIP systems require oxygen tank.

this is what NG trying to advertise against their rival AIP :

"The TKMS system uses external hydrogen tanks, with obvious weight and size penalties given that the tanks are double-shelled and that 100 tonnes of hydride yields only about 2 tonnes of usable hydrogen. Hydride resupply also demands sophisticated port facilities."
 
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Madokafc

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Although blocks are not meant to be switched by 2 years of intervals. Long term committment also requires the reliability. If NG is not guarenteed a long cooperation and prone to face what DSME / Damen / Fincantieri has been through then nothing will change, which refers to 'no progress'.

The ToT process will keep resetting since the time gap between partners will yield a profit - oriented shipyard to relocate submarine hall workers into commercial or other vessels.

Submarine building, maintenance and operation is entirely about traditions and culture. I know shipyards who does not change the section (section of the submarine ) of the welders just to keep their hand steady and train their own apprentices.

got info from my friend in Kemensultan, well he is working as analyst for public policy and financing program (kemensultan is Slank for Indonesian MoF), Indonesian MoD and MoF has some insider agreement to proceed with Air Force need related deals first and for major contract for the Army and Navy would proceed later.
 

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