Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

Dosirak

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Sorry i have to butt in because this line is pissed me off, also one key word "embargo" well maybe you are ignorant about the Hawk circumstance, but are you telling me we have to give them full pay at that time after they left our Hawks in Thailand in the middle of delivery and we used some tricks so we can take 'em from Thailand under US pressure?

The UK parliament only agreed to sell BAe Hawk aircrafts to Indonesia on the condition that the aircarft wouldn't be used for internal repression and the UK parliament attempted to revoke the export license of BAe Hawk only after Indonesia was suspected of deploying BAe Hawk aircrafts in East Timor during the crisis.

What I find interesting is that Indonesia's non-payment for the original contract that Indonesia signed for BAe Hawk back in 1993 was almost nothing to do Hawk aircrafts stranded in Thailand or the Timorese Crisis in 1999 . Indonesia paid only partially for the 1993 contract and simply defaulted on the debt. Then Indonesia demanded the UK to supply additional 16 Hawk aircrafts as a condition for the resumption of payment for the original 1993 contract in 1996.

It is interesting that many Indonesian blame 'embargo' as a reason for non-payment when it seems like they do share a fair bit of responsibilty.

Again, I understand that Indonesia faced some financial difficulties in the 1990s and they could be more knowledgable of the issue so I could be wrong with this one.
 
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Lordimperator

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Establishing Collaboration with International Ship Manufacturers, Navy Chief Receives Courtesy Call from Fincantieri CEO

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Bisnismetro.id, JAKARTA — Commitment to establishing good cooperative relations with partners of the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL), Chief of Naval Staff (Kasal) Admiral TNI Dr. Muhammad Ali received a Courtesy Call with Mr. Dario Deste, CEO of Fincantieri, an Italian shipping company which is a working partner of PT. Noahtu Shipyard, located in the Main Headquarters Building, Cilangkap, East Jakarta, Wednesday (31/01).


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Either PPA is coming, or they want to remind us regarding 6 FREMM.
 

chibiyabi

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Btw one of the biggest problem here in Indonesia is we want the best with minimal or no money.

So when the result doesn't go as expected the blame game start
and find seller who do not hesitate or fine to lower the cost with the risk impacted the quality of the product..fubar..
 

Gary

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Logistics-wise it is much more pragmatic & rational to have uniform weapon systems. Diversitfication only causes more confusion, delay of supplies, technical challneges and most importantly, budget spending.


True, ideally yes, you want a uniform Weapons system with all the perks you listed, but Indonesia's position is less than ideal, there are simply too many factors that need to be put into account when designing a force design with our unique situation in mind.

I understand Indonesia's paranoid over potential sanctions & interventions by the West, but at the moment, the West almost universially agrees that China is a bigger threat

Yes, in 1965 Indonesia switched sides towards the U.S because 'at that moment' both Soeharto led New-order and the Americans happened to universally hate commies, this kind of win-win relationship stayed that way until out of the blue, the Soviet Union ceased to exist and Jakarta finds itself at the receiving end of Western hegemony. Our universal 'friendship' lasts around 35 years.

We never know what will happen to China, will they stay or will they collapse like what the West wished and conspire, but from our experience, it's best to let the Americans do the heavy lifting vis-a-vis China. We're going to defend our interest in the Natuna and should not play any bigger role than that. And because we should not be overtly aligned with one power, we should keep our options open, that includes where we want to source our weapons.

Of course, some weapons like Ships, fighter jets, and air defense should be blacklisted or put in lowest line of the priority lists, but some Chinese weapons like shore-based anti-ship missiles, MANPADS, and ATGMs should be open and Indonesia should look up to it, especially if the price they offer is competitive

This...until Indonesia is self-sufficient in ALL weapons manufacturing

and they don't mind trading weapons with Indonesia as long as she basically acts a regional power against China. Therefore, the US is happy to sell F-16 & F-15 to Indonesia and Australia doesn't mind conducting a joint militiary training with Indonesia. It is the same with naval platforms & military weapons.

In 1995 the Indonesian higher-ups would never thought that excessive violence against civilians would be met with a weapons embargo from the U.S. after so many years of basically letting Jakarta have free hand to use its military to commit all sorts of crimes against the unarmed, all in the name of becoming the bulwark against Communism. Yet the Santa Cruz incident after the fall of Soviet communism is all Washington needs to cripple Indonesia's military then mainly U.S.-supplied weaponry. From the F-16 to the Harpoons the Indonesian military is crippled enough that it didn't offer any significant resistance when INTERFET landed.

Indonesia should think long forward.
 

FPXAllen

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For us, that is if we get China spec Type 052D.
If this is the case, it will also be for them as well. And, no, I'm not only implying on the plethora of electronics they have installed on the ship which will make it easier for them to track its every movement, but also regarding our logistic capacity and readiness, communication protocols, satellite connection, and so on.

Also, no. I'm not implying that Western-made ones are free from similar things. Just read my previous replies if there are any doubts about this.

Anyway, it's also worth thinking that by accepting China-made warships as complete packages, we'll dig even deeper into incompatibilities hell.
Lain ceritanya kalau hull nya Type 052D tapi jeroannya FREMM
I much prefer this. Just sell us the empty hulls and let us configure them by ourselves.
 

Lordimperator

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If this is the case, it will also be for them as well. And, no, I'm not only implying on the plethora of electronics they have installed on the ship which will make it easier for them to track its every movement, but also regarding our logistic capacity and readiness, communication protocols, satellite connection, and so on.

Also, no. I'm not implying that Western-made ones are free from similar things. Just read my previous replies if there are any doubts about this.

Anyway, it's also worth thinking that by accepting China-made warships as complete packages, we'll dig even deeper into incompatibilities hell.

I much prefer this. Just sell us the empty hulls and let us configure them by ourselves.
Like Thailand Naresuan class Frigates.
 

FPXAllen

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Like Thailand Naresuan class Frigates.
And Malaysia with their LMS part I.
Well, not exactly the same with Thailand's case though. The RMN replaced the radio and probably other electronics on KD Keris with Western-made ones just two years after it was commissioned.
 

Gary

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What I mean with intelligence boon is...if we get our hands on one with PLAN spec, we could use the ship to test its combat capability in war games, and maybe got a bit clearer picture of how capable the PLAN is.

for example, We could test how good the Type 346 AESA radar is against simulated air/missile attacks. Or how good is China's CMS
 

FPXAllen

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What I mean with intelligence boon is...if we get our hands on one with PLAN spec, we could use the ship to test its combat capability in war games, and maybe got a bit clearer picture of how capable the PLAN is.

for example, We could test how good the Type 346 AESA radar is against simulated air/missile attacks. Or how good is China's CMS
And of course, they are aware of this scenario too.

So if somehow we get the complete package, it's not outside the realm of possibilities that - at least - some of the ship's critical specifications and capabilities have been "modified" somehow.
 

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