Historical Indus Valley Civilization Research papers and Theories.

[SavageKing456]

As you like.

Proving your point in a defence forum is quite futile. Has a single paper stating what you have stated been accepted in the wider world? The academic world? Or do you think academic matters are determined by majority vote?

Government has literally accepted it
They did checked the background
All you have is "hindutva excuse" rofl

 

[SavageKing456]

Just a caution.

Posting for the sake of increasing your post-count is frowned upon.

In general, Islamophobia and political Hinduism is not the focal area of this forum. If you have any contribution to make to defence and defence-related matters, please do so.

I did contribute in defence related matter
Just thought I contribute here too
Since this thread was kinda empty and I had some information

 

[Joe Shearer]

How does it matter
Yea you just claim hahahagahaha
I'm still laughing dude.
You need to cope

Those who run this place know. Whether you do or not hardly matters.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Government has literally accepted it
They did checked the background
All you have is "hindutva excuse" rofl

You see, the government does not have the apparatus or the capability to accept these matters, or to deny them. If you had this basic information and knowledge, you would not have wasted so much time. As it is, you will now probably pull out a baba who will certify your correctness; that is just next door to what you have done, taken a minister's reply to justify an academic position that is untenable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I did contribute in defence related matter
Just thought I contribute here too
Since this thread was kinda empty and I had some information

A sincere suggestion: go back to that.

Just a suggestion.

 

[SavageKing456]

You see, the government does not have the apparatus or the capability to accept these matters, or to deny them. If you had this basic information and knowledge, you would not have wasted so much time. As it is, you will now probably pull out a baba who will certify your correctness; that is just next door to what you have done, taken a minister's reply to justify an academic position that is untenable.

You literally canceled isro's academic prowess
Since you don't have anything argument left in support you're going this far.
More and more researches are being done and more people are accepting saraswati river

 

[Joe Shearer]

You literally canceled isro's academic prowess
Since you don't have anything argument left in support you're going this far.

Let me repeat, ISRO has NO academic prowess.

You don't seem to know what academic prowess is. It does not consist of a space research organisation making a finding about river channels; it consists of knowing the context, and of putting that information in context.

For instance, the technical expert leading the DNA analysis of the Rakhigarhi was David Reich, a medical expert; the interpretation was entirely done by the famous Vageesh Narasimhan.

ISRO has technical expertise. Nowhere within its structure does it have the capability to analyse or to assess the importance of its findings in the archaeological or the pre-historical context.

 

[SavageKing456]

Let me repeat, ISRO has NO academic prowess.

You don't seem to know what academic prowess is. It does not consist of a space research organisation making a finding about river channels; it consists of knowing the context, and of putting that information in context.

For instance, the technical expert leading the DNA analysis of the Rakhigarhi was David Reich, a medical expert; the interpretation was entirely done by the famous Vageesh Narasimhan.

ISRO has technical expertise. Nowhere within its structure does it have the capability to analyse or to assess the importance of its findings in the archaeological or the pre-historical context.

Isro has done mapping and stuff and that has been confirmed by govt as well
All excuse you have is "hindutva"
Like this any important conclusion comes out during this govt tenure you'll just cancel it under the excuse "hindutva"

You also said academia is not accepting this is also wrong


More list of scientists geologists etc etc from various academics who have partly or fully contributed or acknowledged existence of SARASVATI.



Chatterjee, A. 2017. Provenance of Late Quaternary Continental Sediments in Western India: Insights from Trace Element and Isotope Geochemistry. PhD thesis, Maharaja Sayajirao University of Baroda, Vadodara (https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/199906
); cited with author’s permission. Chatterjee, A. and Ray, J.S. 2018. Geochemistry of Harappan potteries from Kalibangan and sediments in the Ghaggar River: Clues for a dying river. Geoscience Frontiers 9:1203-1211. Clift, P.D., Carter, A., Giosan, L., Durcan, J., Duller, G.A.T., Macklin, M.G., Alizai, A., Tabrez, A.R., Danish, M., VanLaningham, S., and Fuller, D.Q. 2012. U-Pb zircon dating evidence for a Pleistocene Sarasvati River and capture of the Yamuna River. Geology 40(3):212-215. Cunningham,
A. 1871. The Ancient Geography of India. Trübner & Co., London; 1924. Second revised ed., Calcutta, Reprint-2002. Munshiram Manoharlal, New Delhi. Danino, M. 2010. The Lost River: On the Trail of the Sarasvati
. Penguin Books, New Delhi. Danino, M. 2016. Environmental factors in the decline of the Indus–Sarasvati Civilization. In, The Environment and Indian History (Ed., Nanditha Krishna)
.The C.P. Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation, Chennai, pp. 132-148. Danino, M. Forthcoming - a. Climate, Environment, and the Harappan Civilization. In, Environmental History of India (Ed., R. Chakrabarti), Volume 1. Indian Council of Historical Research, New Delhi. (Preprint: Climate_Environment_and_the_Harappan_Civilization. Danino, M. Forthcoming - . In, Proceedings of a National Conference on Indian History: Emerging Perspectives. Indian Council of Historical Research, New Delhi, March 5-7, 2018.
. Dave, A.K., Courty, M.-A., Fitzsimmons K.E., and Singhvi, A.K. 2019. Revisiting the contemporaneity of a mighty river and the Harappans: Archaeological, stratigraphic and chronometric constraints. Quaternary Geochronology 49:230-235. Durcan, J.A., Thomas, D.S.G., Gupta, S., Pawar, V., Singh R.N., and Petrie, C.A. 2019. Holocene landscape dynamics in the Ghaggar–Hakra palaeochannel region at the northern edge of the Thar Desert, northwest India. Quaternary International 501(B):317– 327. Gangal, K., Vahia, M.N. and Adhikari, R. 2010. Spatio-temporal analysis of the Indus urbanization. Current Science 98:846-852. Giosan, L., Clift, P.D., Macklinc, M.G., Fuller, D.Q., Constantinescu, S., Durcan, J.A., Stevens, T., Duller, G.A.T., Tabrez, A.R., Gangal, K., Adhikari, R., Alizai, A., Filip, F., VanLaningham, S. and Syvitski, J.P.M. 2012. Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 109(26):E1688-E1694. Giosan, L., Clift, P.D., Macklinc M.G., and Fuller, D.Q. 2013. Sarasvati. Current Science 105:888-890. Habib, I. 2001. Imagining River Sarasvati: A defence of commonsense. In, Proceedings of the Indian History Congress , 61st
session, Kolkata, 2000-01, pp. 67-92. Reproduced-2001 in: Social Scientist 29(1-2):332-333:46 ff. Joshi, J.P., Bala, M. and Ram, J. 1984. The Indus Civilization: A reconsideration on the basis of distribution maps. In, Frontiers of the Indus Civilization (Eds., B.B. Lal, S.P. Gupta and S. Asthana). Books and Books, New Delhi, pp. 511-530. Khan, I. and Sinha, R. 2019. Discovering ‘buried’ channels of the palaeo-Yamuna River in NW India using geophysical evidence: Implications for major drainage reorganization and linkage to the Harappan Civilization. Journal of Applied Geophysics 167:128-139. Kochhar, R. 2000. The Vedic People: Their History and Geography
.
Orient Longman, HyderabadKshetrimayum, K.S. and Bajpai, V.N. 2011. Establishment of missing stream link between the Markanda River and the Vedic Saraswati River in Haryana, India: Geoelectrical resistivity approach. Current Science 100:1719-1724. Lal, B.B., Joshi, J.P., Thapar, B.K. and Bala, M. 2003. Excavations at Kalibangan: The early Harappans (1960–69).

Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of India, 98. New Delhi, 340 p. Mehdi, S.M., Pant, N.C., Saini, H.S., Mujtaba S.A.I. and Pande, P. 2016. Identification of palaeochannel configuration in the Saraswati River basin in parts of Haryana and Rajasthan, India, through digital remote sensing and GIS. Episodes 39:29-38. Mughal, M.R. 1993. Recent archaeological research in the Cholistan Desert. In: G.L. Possehl (ed.), Harappan Civilization: A Recent Perspective. 2ndedn, Oxford & IBH, New Delhi, pp. 85-95. Mughal, M.R. 1997. Ancient Cholistan: Archaeology and Architecture. Ferozsons, Lahore. Müller, F.M. 1882. Vedic Hymns, part I. Volume 32 in Sacred Books of the East. Reprint 2001, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi. Orengo, H.A. and Petrie, C.A. 2017. Large-scale, multi-temporal remote sensing of palaeo-river networks: A case study from northwest India and its implications for the Indus Civilisation. Remote Sensing 9(7), 735; doi:10.3390/rs9070735. Petrie, C.A., Singh, R.N., Bates, J., Dixit, Y., French, C.A.I., Hodell, D.A., Jones, P.J., Lancelotti, C., Lynam, F., Neogi, S., Pandey, A.K., Parikh, D., Pawar, V., Redhouse, D.I. and Singh, D.P. 2017. Adaptation to variable environments, resilience to climate change: Investigating land, water and settlement in Indus northwest India. Current Anthropology 58:1-30. Puri, V.M.K. 2001. Origin and course of Vedic Saraswati River in Himalaya – its secular desiccation episodes as deciphered from palaeo-glaciation and geomorphological signatures. Geological Survey of India, Special Publication 53:175-191. Puri, V.M.K. 2008. Vedic Sarasvati: Scientific signatures on its origin from the Himalaya. In: S. Kalyanaraman (ed.), Vedic River Saraswati and Hindu Civilization. Aryan Books International, New Delhi, pp. 14-35. Rajani, M.B. and Rajawat, A.S. 2011. Potential of satellite-based sensors for studying distribution of archaeological sites along palaeochannels: Harappan sites a case study. Journal of Archaeological Science 38:2010-2016. Saini, H.S., Tandon, S.K., Mujtaba, S.A.I., Pant, N.C., and Khorana, R.K. 2009. Reconstruction of buried channel-floodplain systems of the northwestern Haryana Plains and their relation to the “Vedic” Saraswati. Current Science 97: 1634-1643. Saini, H.S. and Mujtaba, S.A.I. 2010. Luminescence dating of the sediments from a buried channel loop in Fatehabad area, Haryana: Insight into Vedic Saraswati River and its environment. Geochronometria37:29-35. Shinde, V., Osada, T., Uesugi, A. and Kumar, M. 2008. A Report on Excavations at Farmana 2007-08. Occasional Paper 6, Linguistics, Archaeology and the Human Past, Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, Kyoto. Singh, R.N., Petrie, C.A., Pawar, V., Pandey, A.K., Neogi, S., Singh, M., Singh, A.K., Parikh, D. and Lancelotti, C. 2010. Changing patterns of settlement in the rise and fall of Harappan urbanism and beyond: A preliminary report on the Rakhigarhi hinterland survey 2009. Man and Environment 35(1):37-53. Singh, A., Paul, D., Sinha, R., Thomsen, K.J. and Gupta, S. 2016.Geochemistry of buried river sediments from Ghaggar Plains, NW India: Multi-proxy records of variations in provenance, paleoclimate, and paleovegetation patterns in the Late Quaternary. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 449:85-100. Singh, A., Thomsen, K.J., Sinha, R., Buylaert, J.-P., Carter, A., Mark, D.F., Mason, P.J., Densmore, A.L., Murray, A.S., Jain, M., Paul, D. and Gupta, S. 2017. Counter-intuitive influence of Himalayan river morphodynamics on Indus Civilisation urban settlements. Nature Communications 8:1617, doi: 10.1038/s41467-017-01643-9

This is just some of them which I listed,there are even more and more are upcoming to accept it,cancel them also as "hindutva"


Now purpose of mine is over,it's upto to you to believe
I cannot force you,you know right?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Isro has done mapping and stuff and that has been confirmed by govt as well
All excuse you have is "hindutva"
Like this any important conclusion comes out during this govt tenure you'll just cancel it under the excuse "hindutva"

Mapping is mapping - it shows that there were ancient channels in a particular location. What else does it prove, did you think about that?

You also said academia is not accepting this is also wrong


More list of scientists geologists etc etc from various academics who have partly or fully contributed or acknowledged existence of SARASVATI.



Chatterjee, A. 2017. Provenance of Late Quaternary Continental Sediments in Western India: Insights from Trace Element and Isotope Geochemistry. PhD thesis, Maharaja Sayajirao University of Baroda, Vadodara (https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/199906
); cited with author’s permission. Chatterjee, A. and Ray, J.S. 2018. Geochemistry of Harappan potteries from Kalibangan and sediments in the Ghaggar River: Clues for a dying river. Geoscience Frontiers 9:1203-1211. Clift, P.D., Carter, A., Giosan, L., Durcan, J., Duller, G.A.T., Macklin, M.G., Alizai, A., Tabrez, A.R., Danish, M., VanLaningham, S., and Fuller, D.Q. 2012. U-Pb zircon dating evidence for a Pleistocene Sarasvati River and capture of the Yamuna River. Geology 40(3):212-215. Cunningham,
A. 1871. The Ancient Geography of India. Trübner & Co., London; 1924. Second revised ed., Calcutta, Reprint-2002. Munshiram Manoharlal, New Delhi. Danino, M. 2010. The Lost River: On the Trail of the Sarasvati
. Penguin Books, New Delhi. Danino, M. 2016. Environmental factors in the decline of the Indus–Sarasvati Civilization. In, The Environment and Indian History (Ed., Nanditha Krishna)
.The C.P. Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation, Chennai, pp. 132-148. Danino, M. Forthcoming - a. Climate, Environment, and the Harappan Civilization. In, Environmental History of India (Ed., R. Chakrabarti), Volume 1. Indian Council of Historical Research, New Delhi. (Preprint: Climate_Environment_and_the_Harappan_Civilization. Danino, M. Forthcoming - . In, Proceedings of a National Conference on Indian History: Emerging Perspectives. Indian Council of Historical Research, New Delhi, March 5-7, 2018.
. Dave, A.K., Courty, M.-A., Fitzsimmons K.E., and Singhvi, A.K. 2019. Revisiting the contemporaneity of a mighty river and the Harappans: Archaeological, stratigraphic and chronometric constraints. Quaternary Geochronology 49:230-235. Durcan, J.A., Thomas, D.S.G., Gupta, S., Pawar, V., Singh R.N., and Petrie, C.A. 2019. Holocene landscape dynamics in the Ghaggar–Hakra palaeochannel region at the northern edge of the Thar Desert, northwest India. Quaternary International 501(B):317– 327. Gangal, K., Vahia, M.N. and Adhikari, R. 2010. Spatio-temporal analysis of the Indus urbanization. Current Science 98:846-852. Giosan, L., Clift, P.D., Macklinc, M.G., Fuller, D.Q., Constantinescu, S., Durcan, J.A., Stevens, T., Duller, G.A.T., Tabrez, A.R., Gangal, K., Adhikari, R., Alizai, A., Filip, F., VanLaningham, S. and Syvitski, J.P.M. 2012. Fluvial landscapes of the Harappan civilization. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 109(26):E1688-E1694. Giosan, L., Clift, P.D., Macklinc M.G., and Fuller, D.Q. 2013. Sarasvati. Current Science 105:888-890. Habib, I. 2001. Imagining River Sarasvati: A defence of commonsense. In, Proceedings of the Indian History Congress , 61st
session, Kolkata, 2000-01, pp. 67-92. Reproduced-2001 in: Social Scientist 29(1-2):332-333:46 ff. Joshi, J.P., Bala, M. and Ram, J. 1984. The Indus Civilization: A reconsideration on the basis of distribution maps. In, Frontiers of the Indus Civilization (Eds., B.B. Lal, S.P. Gupta and S. Asthana). Books and Books, New Delhi, pp. 511-530. Khan, I. and Sinha, R. 2019. Discovering ‘buried’ channels of the palaeo-Yamuna River in NW India using geophysical evidence: Implications for major drainage reorganization and linkage to the Harappan Civilization. Journal of Applied Geophysics 167:128-139. Kochhar, R. 2000. The Vedic People: Their History and Geography
.
Orient Longman, HyderabadKshetrimayum, K.S. and Bajpai, V.N. 2011. Establishment of missing stream link between the Markanda River and the Vedic Saraswati River in Haryana, India: Geoelectrical resistivity approach. Current Science 100:1719-1724. Lal, B.B., Joshi, J.P., Thapar, B.K. and Bala, M. 2003. Excavations at Kalibangan: The early Harappans (1960–69).

Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of India, 98. New Delhi, 340 p. Mehdi, S.M., Pant, N.C., Saini, H.S., Mujtaba S.A.I. and Pande, P. 2016. Identification of palaeochannel configuration in the Saraswati River basin in parts of Haryana and Rajasthan, India, through digital remote sensing and GIS. Episodes 39:29-38. Mughal, M.R. 1993. Recent archaeological research in the Cholistan Desert. In: G.L. Possehl (ed.), Harappan Civilization: A Recent Perspective. 2ndedn, Oxford & IBH, New Delhi, pp. 85-95. Mughal, M.R. 1997. Ancient Cholistan: Archaeology and Architecture. Ferozsons, Lahore. Müller, F.M. 1882. Vedic Hymns, part I. Volume 32 in Sacred Books of the East. Reprint 2001, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi. Orengo, H.A. and Petrie, C.A. 2017. Large-scale, multi-temporal remote sensing of palaeo-river networks: A case study from northwest India and its implications for the Indus Civilisation. Remote Sensing 9(7), 735; doi:10.3390/rs9070735. Petrie, C.A., Singh, R.N., Bates, J., Dixit, Y., French, C.A.I., Hodell, D.A., Jones, P.J., Lancelotti, C., Lynam, F., Neogi, S., Pandey, A.K., Parikh, D., Pawar, V., Redhouse, D.I. and Singh, D.P. 2017. Adaptation to variable environments, resilience to climate change: Investigating land, water and settlement in Indus northwest India. Current Anthropology 58:1-30. Puri, V.M.K. 2001. Origin and course of Vedic Saraswati River in Himalaya – its secular desiccation episodes as deciphered from palaeo-glaciation and geomorphological signatures. Geological Survey of India, Special Publication 53:175-191. Puri, V.M.K. 2008. Vedic Sarasvati: Scientific signatures on its origin from the Himalaya. In: S. Kalyanaraman (ed.), Vedic River Saraswati and Hindu Civilization. Aryan Books International, New Delhi, pp. 14-35. Rajani, M.B. and Rajawat, A.S. 2011. Potential of satellite-based sensors for studying distribution of archaeological sites along palaeochannels: Harappan sites a case study. Journal of Archaeological Science 38:2010-2016. Saini, H.S., Tandon, S.K., Mujtaba, S.A.I., Pant, N.C., and Khorana, R.K. 2009. Reconstruction of buried channel-floodplain systems of the northwestern Haryana Plains and their relation to the “Vedic” Saraswati. Current Science 97: 1634-1643. Saini, H.S. and Mujtaba, S.A.I. 2010. Luminescence dating of the sediments from a buried channel loop in Fatehabad area, Haryana: Insight into Vedic Saraswati River and its environment. Geochronometria37:29-35. Shinde, V., Osada, T., Uesugi, A. and Kumar, M. 2008. A Report on Excavations at Farmana 2007-08. Occasional Paper 6, Linguistics, Archaeology and the Human Past, Research Institute for Humanity and Nature, Kyoto. Singh, R.N., Petrie, C.A., Pawar, V., Pandey, A.K., Neogi, S., Singh, M., Singh, A.K., Parikh, D. and Lancelotti, C. 2010. Changing patterns of settlement in the rise and fall of Harappan urbanism and beyond: A preliminary report on the Rakhigarhi hinterland survey 2009. Man and Environment 35(1):37-53. Singh, A., Paul, D., Sinha, R., Thomsen, K.J. and Gupta, S. 2016.Geochemistry of buried river sediments from Ghaggar Plains, NW India: Multi-proxy records of variations in provenance, paleoclimate, and paleovegetation patterns in the Late Quaternary. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 449:85-100. Singh, A., Thomsen, K.J., Sinha, R., Buylaert, J.-P., Carter, A., Mark, D.F., Mason, P.J., Densmore, A.L., Murray, A.S., Jain, M., Paul, D. and Gupta, S. 2017. Counter-intuitive influence of Himalayan river morphodynamics on Indus Civilisation urban settlements. Nature Communications 8:1617, doi: 10.1038/s41467-017-01643-9

This is just some of them which I listed,there are even more and more are upcoming to accept it,cancel them also as "hindutva"

First, you need to learn to read and to comprehend what you have read.

Let us take one example: a researcher finds that he is able to trace an ancient river path using
'trace elements and isotope geochemistry'. What does that prove to you? That the river path is the Saraswati? At most, what you may conclude is that there was a river running there.

You can go through each and every item, one by one; you will find the same results. For instance, the second one analyses the base material of pottery from Kalibangan, and shows that the clay is from the ancient river path. What does that prove, in your opinion? Does anyone say that the river is the Saraswati?

A muddled head will tend to mistake the existence of unrelated evidence as somehow related to his proposition, when in reality, it has nothing to do with the proposition.

Now purpose of mine is over,it's upto to you to believe
I cannot force you,you know right?

Your purpose should be to clear your confusion about what you think you know, and sources for knowing it.

Your purpose should not be to try and convince others that a patch work of stories and and ersatz academics add up to a coherent theory.

Your purpose should not be to tell the world that NASA is one of the top US universities; nor, as a parallel, that ISRO is an academic institution.

Most of all, your purpose should be to concentrate on defence related topics, threads and posts, and not matters about which you know so little.

 

[OverTheHorizon]

Here's an article on how modern computing techniques were used to understand the Indus Valley script.

An ancient language has defied translation for 100 years. Can AI crack the code?

Machine learning can translate between two known languages, but could it ever decipher those that remain a mystery to us?

restofworld.org

You can note the article summarizes the difficulties associated with deciphering the fate of the IVC. It is also interesting to note that the information entropy measures show that the IVC script's entropy closely matched that of Tamil Brahmi script's (which also was considered undecipherable until someone broke that) entropy.
My own take on it is a Dravidian like civilization (most likely made up of migration of people from the Ethiopian highlands - the cradle of humanity, at least homo sapiens that is) existed just like the current people of Balochistan who also speak dialects similar to Dravidian dialects. Then, as would have happened in any period of human history, inter mixing happened with Iranic /steppes people right across the Mesopotamian-IVC belt. And a newer vedic civilization was born reflecting the customs and rituals of the Iranic people but mixed with the indigenous beliefs and rituals of the IVC people. It is also possible that the migrants were people kicked out of Mesopotamian civilizations and wandered around to find new land. This is a distinct possibilty as the Vedas started portraying gods of Iranic civilizations as the evil Asuras. And the new inhabitants of IVC as the divine Devas. This kind of vilification of oppressors happened throughout history (Christians falsely vilifying Jews for example) .
This simple evolution is most likely what happened. Most of history is actually not all that complicated to decipher if one strives to understand why people may have done a certain thing like writing down a story in a particular way. It is the constant fudging and embellishing of events over the centuries to suit some ruler or the other that has led to all sorts of unsupportable complexity being propounded in today's explanations. Otherwise, people did what always did - lived, fought, ate, mixed, traveled, progressed, partied, prayed, reproduced, worked, died etc.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Here's an article on how modern computing techniques were used to understand the Indus Valley script.

An ancient language has defied translation for 100 years. Can AI crack the code?

Machine learning can translate between two known languages, but could it ever decipher those that remain a mystery to us?

restofworld.org

You can note the article summarizes the difficulties associated with deciphering the fate of the IVC. It is also interesting to note that the information entropy measures show that the IVC script's entropy closely matched that of Tamil Brahmi script's (which also was considered undecipherable until someone broke that) entropy.

I have read of two efforts in that direction, one in the US, referred to by others, perhaps by you, and one in a mathematics institute in Chennai. The measures demonstrated similarity with Tamil Brahmi, just as you have mentioned.

My own take on it is a Dravidian like civilization (most likely made up of migration of people from the Ethiopian highlands - the cradle of humanity, at least homo sapiens that is) existed just like the current people of Balochistan who also speak dialects similar to Dravidian dialects. Then, as would have happened in any period of human history, inter mixing happened with Iranic /steppes people right across the Mesopotamian-IVC belt. And a newer vedic civilization was born reflecting the customs and rituals of the Iranic people but mixed with the indigenous beliefs and rituals of the IVC people. It is also possible that the migrants were people kicked out of Mesopotamian civilizations and wandered around to find new land. This is a distinct possibilty as the Vedas started portraying gods of Iranic civilizations as the evil Asuras. And the new inhabitants of IVC as the divine Devas. This kind of vilification of oppressors happened throughout history (Christians falsely vilifying Jews for example) .

I personally at the moment am sticking to the rut, but I see the value in your hypothesis. Perhaps we can discuss this further.

Personally, I tend to incline towards the Mesopotamian input being Elamite, as that would close several links very neatly - the Elamite origins of Tamil, the Tamil foundations of the IVC language, and the admixture of Elamite migrant with migrants from the uplands.

While your point about the religious split is almost a given, the split that placed Ahura/Asura and Daiva/Deva on opposite sides, given the time frames, I prefer to stick to the rut, as mentioned, and to see the IVC and Vedic culture as two parallel streams that were about 1,500 years apart (counting 3300 BCE as the starting point of the IVC, and 2500 BCE as the probable dates of the Indo-Iranians in the Andronovo region).

However, I do not discount your very interesting analysis.

This simple evolution is most likely what happened. Most of history is actually not all that complicated to decipher if one strives to understand why people may have done a certain thing like writing down a story in a particular way. It is the constant fudging and embellishing of events over the centuries to suit some ruler or the other that has led to all sorts of unsupportable complexity being propounded in today's explanations. Otherwise, people did what always did - lived, fought, ate, mixed, traveled, progressed, partied, prayed, reproduced, worked, died etc.

I couldn't help a smile, but it is a smile of sympathetic understanding. That is extremely useful, considering that humans behaved much the same 3,500 years ago, as they do today.

This is a fascinating conversation. Perhaps you could share some information about yourself. I am mightily intrigued.

 

[SavageKing456]

First, you need to learn to read and to comprehend what you have read.

Let us take one example: a researcher finds that he is able to trace an ancient river path using
'trace elements and isotope geochemistry'. What does that prove to you? That the river path is the Saraswati? At most, what you may conclude is that there was a river running there.

You can go through each and every item, one by one; you will find the same results. For instance, the second one analyses the base material of pottery from Kalibangan, and shows that the clay is from the ancient river path. What does that prove, in your opinion? Does anyone say that the river is the Saraswati?

A muddled head will tend to mistake the existence of unrelated evidence as somehow related to his proposition, when in reality, it has nothing to do with the proposition.

The researchers have came to conclusions by both archeology and mapping,analysis
I cannot say when you come up with lamest excuse lol that since govt is hindutva I'll deny everything

Your purpose should be to clear your confusion about what you think you know, and sources for knowing it.

Your purpose should not be to try and convince others that a patch work of stories and and ersatz academics add up to a coherent theory.

Your purpose should not be to tell the world that NASA is one of the top US universities; nor, as a parallel, that ISRO is an academic institution.

Most of all, your purpose should be to concentrate on defence related topics, threads and posts, and not matters about which you know so little.

You know little man not me,kek
Your ideology is being threatened here,hence your denial is coming at each post.
Your stupid arguments keep me here :/, and I'm not convincing here,who would convince a guy who literally makes up "Hindutva" as an excuse.
The researchers name and stuff I sent have clearly correlated the river
"Muh academia is not accepting saraswati"
Biggest lie!

 

[Joe Shearer]

The researchers have came to conclusions by both archeology and mapping,analysis

Just in case no one told you, ISRO doesn't do archaeology.
Archaeologists don't do mapping analyses.

I cannot say when you come up with lamest excuse lol that since govt is hindutva I'll deny everything

The government being Hindutva is a fact.
Are you also a Hindutva supporter?

You know little man not me,kek

I would agree with you, but who am I to contradict the majority?

Your ideology is being threatened here,hence your denial is coming at each post.

My ideology? What is it? Is accepting academic rigour and standards an ideology? Is rejecting voodoo publications and self-serving analysis by untrained observers an ideology? You need to re-think your definitions.

Your stupid arguments keep me here :/, and I'm not convincing here,who would convince a guy who literally makes up "Hindutva" as an excuse.

Now, now, you mustn't lose your temper. The fact is that you have repeated yourself over and over, and it is visible to anyone who reads the discussion. You cannot hide behind a web of words for very long.

The researchers name and stuff I sent have clearly correlated the river

Not really. People like Michel Danino are not researchers. As far as much of the rest of your list is concerned, they have established scientific facts that have proved that certain patches of land have been palaeo-geographically river beds.

There is nowhere any evidence that the drying up river bed is the Saraswati, only 'Eureka' statements by individuals who feel that this might be the answer. That joy, that exuberance, sadly, doesn't amount to proof, only to hypothesis (if you understand the difference).

"Muh academia is not accepting saraswati"
Biggest lie!

Ho hum....

 

[OverTheHorizon]

The researchers have came to conclusions by both archeology and mapping,analysis
I cannot say when you come up with lamest excuse lol that since govt is hindutva I'll deny everything


You know little man not me,kek
Your ideology is being threatened here,hence your denial is coming at each post.
Your stupid arguments keep me here :/, and I'm not convincing here,who would convince a guy who literally makes up "Hindutva" as an excuse.
The researchers name and stuff I sent have clearly correlated the river
"Muh academia is not accepting saraswati"
Biggest lie!

The question you need to ask yourself is whether your assertions would pass the highest rigors of inquiry and deduction toward a reasonable conclusion. Just for kicks, there are people who believe that scientific rigor is all BS and a conspiracy by the "elite" to keep themselves employed in the name of never ending "research". That is an extreme too. However, after personally having experienced the world, I have come to know that paid-for research is quite prevalent, unfortunately, even at the highest of institutions. When the Harvards of the world can twist research because the CCP funded that research, there has to be some amount of genuine alarm over garbage masquerading as research. And that applies to "research" into IVC as well. So my suggestion is to NOT take what passes for research at face value and frame arguments to yourself to see if the research outputs pass the "common sense" litmus test. If you smell bias, colloquially known as bullshit, then that research output needs to be trashed and not bandied about, IMHO. But then again all I wrote assumes you want to hold yourself to the highest levels of intellectual rigor. If you don't want to, that is your preference.
Also you may want to ponder over this : our planet - bhoomi, maa dharti, gaia, earth, terra firma, a pale blue dot - will continue to exist for billions more years AFTER humanity as a species has long perished. So, who gets to write the tale of Planet Earth or more precisely who gets to twist the tale of what went on Planet Earth to their fanciful imaginations? Then think about the story of the IVC in this timescale. What is your conclusion?

 

[SavageKing456]

doesn't do archaeology.
Archaeologists don't do mapping analyses

Now by each comment you're getting dumber
I said isro did mapping and archeology stuff was done by government of India
How many times I have to make this clear

The government being Hindutva is a fact.
Are you also a Hindutva supporter?

How is it related to the research it does?
By this logic any conclusive research done during this govts tenure which doesn't fit your analogy is bound to be rejected?

Now, now, you mustn't lose your temper. The fact is that you have repeated yourself over and over, and it is visible to anyone who reads the discussion. You cannot hide behind a web of words for very long.

My repetition has exact reason that is you failed to understand what I want to Express,not my problem

Not really. People like Michel Danino are not researchers. As far as much of the rest of your list is concerned, they have established scientific facts that have proved that certain patches of land have been palaeo-geographically river beds.

There is nowhere any evidence that the drying up river bed is the Saraswati, only 'Eureka' statements by individuals who feel that this might be the answer. That joy, that exuberance, sadly, doesn't amount to proof, only to hypothesis (if you understand the difference).

Meh
Rest of them?
Did you even read what's written in bold letters?
"More list of scientists geologists etc etc from various academics who have partly or fully contributed or acknowledged existence of SARASVATI"

Here it does say partly,some did fully contribute and came to conclusions.
You know what?
The exact reason of your lack of knowledge is that you properly don't READ things

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now by each comment you're getting dumber
I said isro did mapping and archeology stuff was done by government of India
How many times I have to make this clear

This is what you said, precisely, with no such distinction drawn as you have suggested above; what you are trying to do now is to sell your afterthought.

The researchers have came to conclusions by both archeology and mapping,analysis

How is it related to the research it does?
By this logic any conclusive research done during this govts tenure which doesn't fit your analogy is bound to be rejected?

No.
Unscientific research, by untrained researchers, adopted by a government that has a declared purpose of guiding research to support its political positions, is bound to be rejected.

My repetition has exact reason that is you failed to understand what I want to Express,not my problem

No, nothing is your problem. Considering that you have compiled revisionist junk, it is only your problem, and that of nobody else.

Meh
Rest of them?
Did you even read what's written in bold letters?
"More list of scientists geologists etc etc from various academics who have partly or fully contributed or acknowledged existence of SARASVATI"

I have gone through the list. That is what I was referring to, when I said you had gathered a set of junk papers defending a bad case, or of good papers that do not support your leaps of faith.

Here it does say partly,some did fully contribute and came to conclusions.
You know what?
The exact reason of your lack of knowledge is that you properly don't READ things

I've been studying this before you were born. Trust me, I don't need to read the rubbish you think is convincing to see where you are coming from.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The question you need to ask yourself is whether your assertions would pass the highest rigors of inquiry and deduction toward a reasonable conclusion. Just for kicks, there are people who believe that scientific rigor is all BS and a conspiracy by the "elite" to keep themselves employed in the name of never ending "research". That is an extreme too. However, after personally having experienced the world, I have come to know that paid-for research is quite prevalent, unfortunately, even at the highest of institutions. When the Harvards of the world can twist research because the CCP funded that research, there has to be some amount of genuine alarm over garbage masquerading as research. And that applies to "research" into IVC as well. So my suggestion is to NOT take what passes for research at face value and frame arguments to yourself to see if the research outputs pass the "common sense" litmus test. If you smell bias, colloquially known as bullshit, then that research output needs to be trashed and not bandied about, IMHO. But then again all I wrote assumes you want to hold yourself to the highest levels of intellectual rigor. If you don't want to, that is your preference.
Also you may want to ponder over this : our planet - bhoomi, maa dharti, gaia, earth, terra firma, a pale blue dot - will continue to exist for billions more years AFTER humanity as a species has long perished. So, who gets to write the tale of Planet Earth or more precisely who gets to twist the tale of what went on Planet Earth to their fanciful imaginations? Then think about the story of the IVC in this timescale. What is your conclusion?

May I cite this? This is such a balanced argument.

 

[SavageKing456]

No.
Unscientific research, by untrained researchers, adopted by a government that has a declared purpose of guiding research to support its political positions, is bound to be rejected.

You have no authority to declare which researchers are untrained+since you have bias your credibility is even lesser

No, nothing is your problem. Considering that you have compiled revisionist junk, it is only your problem, and that of nobody else

Junk is what you believe not others,truth is not the projection of someone's mind.
Your opinion matters little,collective opinion has some weight

I have gone through the list. That is what I was referring to, when I said you had gathered a set of junk papers defending a bad case, or of good papers that do not support your leaps of faith.

LOL
Everything is junk according to you
You have no authority,however you can indeed satisfy yourself/make yourself comfortable by denying it

I've been studying this before you were born. Trust me, I don't need to read the rubbish you think is

Your entire so called studies are reflected in your comments/statements which are not derived from an intellectual mindset,rather egoistic.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You have no authority to declare which researchers are untrained+since you have bias your credibility is even lesser


Junk is what you believe not others,truth is not the projection of someone's mind.
Your opinion matters little,collective opinion has some weight


LOL
Everything is junk according to you
You have no authority,however you can indeed satisfy yourself/make yourself comfortable by denying it



Your entire so called studies are reflected in your comments/statements which are not derived from an intellectual mindset,rather egoistic.

I see that you have got into a corner. No point in torturing you. Continue believing whatever you want to believe in.

 

[SavageKing456]

I see that you have got into a corner. No point in torturing you. Continue believing whatever you want to believe in.

You're torturing yourself,not me