Is a UK-Turkey alliance brewing?

[Mis_TR_Like]

In recent times I've noticed that the two nations are meeting regularly, cooperating and engaging with each other in some very important matters. To counter French ambitions, it seems like the UK is partnering with Turkey.



This here is one small example, which gave me the idea to create this thread:

View attachment 2964

 

[Captain_Azeri_76]

In recent times I've noticed that the two nations are meeting regularly, cooperating and engaging with each other in some very important matters. To counter French ambitions, it seems like the UK is partnering with Turkey.



This here is one small example, which gave me the idea to create this thread:

Edited:
We will only be able to observe a changing or development of the relationship when the UK has left the "partly anti-turkic club" EU completely and becomes sovereign again.
The problem will then continue to be the USA, which has a very large influence on decisions within the UK.

 

[Yoyo]

In recent times I've noticed that the two nations are meeting regularly, cooperating and engaging with each other in some very important matters. To counter French ambitions, it seems like the UK is partnering with Turkey.



This here is one small example, which gave me the idea to create this thread:

Like the UFO guys say; I want to believe.
UK will want to keep a balance vis-a-vis France and Germany. Throughout history this has been the case.
Their leaving the EU has been highly contested, they're arguing about everything from customs to fishing rights.
When Europeans argue, it usually benefits two nations: Russia and Turkey
That said, I think we all remember how Rolls-Royce walked out of TF-X MMU engine project rather too vividly.

Rolls-Royce scales back on joining fighter jet project with Turkey's Kale Group

British engine maker Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc confirmed it had scaled back efforts to join a Turkish program to build a new fighter jet with Turkey's Kale Group.

www.reuters.com

If they can agree to partner with Turkey on Turkey's terms, they will benefit a lot financially (engines for TF-X, Hurjet, future drones) and we will help them balance France's growing influence in the East Med/Middle East.

But will they want to replace French influence with a Turkish one?

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

We will only be able to observe a changing or development of the relationship when the UK has left the "fascist club" EU completely and becomes sovereign again.
The problem will then continue to be the USA, which has a very large influence on decisions within the UK.

The problem in the USA is the lobbyists. The USA is way better off working with Turkey instead of souring relations for no gain. But the lobbyists are buying support against Turkey, and the USA is just weakening NATO by creating a rift that no sane strategist would accept. The UK has realised this, that's why they are actively trying to engage with Turkey.

Lobbyism is ruining the USA's ability to make sound strategic decisions.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Like the UFO guys say; I want to believe.
UK will want to keep a balance vis-a-vis France and Germany. Throughout history this has been the case.
Their leaving the EU has been highly contested, they're arguing about everything from customs to fishing rights.
When Europeans argue, it usually benefits two nations: Russia and Turkey
That said, I think we all remember how Rolls-Royce walked out of TF-X MMU engine project rather too vividly.

Rolls-Royce scales back on joining fighter jet project with Turkey's Kale Group

British engine maker Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc confirmed it had scaled back efforts to join a Turkish program to build a new fighter jet with Turkey's Kale Group.

www.reuters.com

If they can agree to partner with Turkey on Turkey's terms, they will benefit a lot financially (engines for TF-X, Hurjet, future drones) and we will help them balance France's growing influence in the East Med/Middle East.

But will they want to replace French influence with a Turkish one?

Although I wouldn't put all my trust in them, I'd wager that they are seeking some type of strategic alliance in order to regain influence throughout the region. We also have to remember the military side of things. France wants to create an "EU" army... This would upset the UK, as they will be outmatched. Of course there's no possibility of war, but it would bring the UK to the EU's mercy, and melt away any bargaining chips which the UK possesses. Let's not forget that military power allows you to bend the rules to your favour. By seeking an alliance with Turkey, the UK can save itself from being pressured by the EU.

 

[Yoyo]

The problem in the USA is the lobbyists. The USA is way better off working with Turkey instead of souring relations for no gain. But the lobbyists are buying support against Turkey, and the USA is just weakening NATO by creating a rift that no sane strategist would accept. The UK has realised this, that's why they are actively trying to engage with Turkey.

Lobbyism is ruining the USA's ability to make sound strategic decisions.

Lobby system is a product of USA's internal political system. Yes, they call it a democracy, but it's not the people who choose politicians. It's billionaire donors. They fund politicians' campaigns, and come election time people make a choice among their 2 or 3 picks. If anything, it's an illusion of democracy, really. Think about it. Turkey is a nation of 83 million and has 4 parties in the Parliament. USA is a nation of 320 million but has only 2 parties in its Congress.

Lobbyists are but a wheel in that corrupt machine. They take money from other people, companies and nations. Give part of it to a politician in exchange for support for a specific policy. And this is normal in the USA because that's how they end up in the office in the first place: Billionaire's campaign donations.

So, in effect, USA isn't ruled by its people. It's ruled by its corporations.

 

[Combat-Master]

Mutual interests may have aligned for now.

 

[Captain_Azeri_76]

The problem in the USA is the lobbyists. The USA is way better off working with Turkey instead of souring relations for no gain. But the lobbyists are buying support against Turkey, and the USA is just weakening NATO by creating a rift that no sane strategist would accept. The UK has realised this, that's why they are actively trying to engage with Turkey.

Lobbyism is ruining the USA's ability to make sound strategic decisions.

I think @Yoyo s post was on point...

The UK would gain some influence and power with an ally like turkey - that alone would solve many problems within the EU, because an ally on the other side of Europe - that would be "too much" for many EU countries...

I had read some time ago, that there are efforts within turkey to expand its own lobbyism in the USA - by creating an "EEZ" in Texas - thus creating jobs and making a major contribution to the economy...

What has become of this major project, which would bring us many advantages and a "lever", I sadly don't know...

 

[Reviewbrah]

Like the UFO guys say; I want to believe.
UK will want to keep a balance vis-a-vis France and Germany. Throughout history this has been the case.
Their leaving the EU has been highly contested, they're arguing about everything from customs to fishing rights.
When Europeans argue, it usually benefits two nations: Russia and Turkey
That said, I think we all remember how Rolls-Royce walked out of TF-X MMU engine project rather too vividly.

Rolls-Royce scales back on joining fighter jet project with Turkey's Kale Group

British engine maker Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc confirmed it had scaled back efforts to join a Turkish program to build a new fighter jet with Turkey's Kale Group.

www.reuters.com

If they can agree to partner with Turkey on Turkey's terms, they will benefit a lot financially (engines for TF-X, Hurjet, future drones) and we will help them balance France's growing influence in the East Med/Middle East.

But will they want to replace French influence with a Turkish one?

Cronyism also plays a role in why RR-Kale engine partnership stalled

Government wanted to involve BMC which RR did not want (self explanatory)

RR partnership too valuable if we want to build a truly 5th generation aircraft (Russia, China still struggling with developing 5th gen engine)

We can co-develop a 5th generation fighter engine based on EJ2000 maybe

Possible RR-Kale partnership haven't failed yet. Talks are still going

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Cronyism also plays a role in why RR-Kale engine partnership stalled

Government wanted to involve BMC which RR did not want (self explanatory)

RR partnership too valuable if we want to build a truly 5th generation aircraft (Russia, China still struggling with developing 5th gen engine)

We can co-develop a 5th generation fighter engine based on EJ2000 maybe

Possible RR-Kale partnership haven't failed yet. Talks are still going

BMC? Wow, that's just ridiculous. Giving the Altay project to BMC is one thing. Involving them in the TFX project is just silly on a whole other level.

 

[Yoyo]

To be fair, the Financial Times article below stresses that Rolls-Royce practically walked out last year because it didn't want its engine's intellectual property rights to belong to Turkey, not specifically to BMC.

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Erdogan-backed scheme hit issues over intellectual property

www.ft.com

Osman Dur, chief executive of BMC Power, the BMC subsidiary that has been working on the TF-X programme, told the FT last year that “all the IP and similar intellectual property rights gained within the scope of this project will remain in Turkey,” and stressed that they would belong to the Turkish government.

 

[Reviewbrah]

To be fair, the Financial Times article below stresses that Rolls-Royce practically walked out last year because it didn't want its engine's intellectual property rights to belong to Turkey, not specifically to BMC.

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Erdogan-backed scheme hit issues over intellectual property

www.ft.com

Osman Dur, chief executive of BMC Power, the BMC subsidiary that has been working on the TF-X programme, told the FT last year that “all the IP and similar intellectual property rights gained within the scope of this project will remain in Turkey,” and stressed that they would belong to the Turkish government.

I didn't say it as the only reason but BMC involvement definitely created issues

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Erdogan-backed scheme hit issues over intellectual property

www.ft.com

Talks ran into problems last year due to a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company

 

[Captain_Azeri_76]

Turkish investors negotiating industry projects in US with financial institutions

Large industry projects are being discussed by major financial institutions in the U.S. and the Turkish business world, which is preparing to establish a...

www.dailysabah.com

https://efile.fara.gov/docs/6170-Informational-Materials-20200408-352.pdf

_________________

The article I was referring to is unfortunately no longer available (no idea why - I'll keep looking)

but such projects are those that could strengthen turkey internationally... create entanglements and dependencies...

Example: Turkey employs around 15 million Americans...

you understand'?

_______________________

Edit:

found smth in german; 07.06.2019, 12:11
(you can feel the tendency of the news about turkey - you can smell an anti-Turkish attitude poisoning the heads of the citizens)

Türkei will mit Masterplan mehr Einfluss in den USA: So sieht der Plan aus

Um die Beziehungen zwischen der Türkei und den USA steht es nicht zum Besten. Trotzdem will die Türkei eine Sonderwirtschaftszone in den Vereinigten Staaten errichten - und zwar in Texas. Bei dem Projekt geht es aber um mehr als nur Produktionsstätten für Unternehmen.

www.focus.de

Relations between Turkey and the USA are not in the best of health. Nevertheless, Turkey wants to establish a special economic zone in the United States - in Texas.
But the project is about more than just production facilities for companies. The tension that is in the air due to the planned Turkish-Russian missile defense deal between Turkey and the USA is not only noticeable on the diplomatic scene, but also unsettles investors. All the more surprising seems the announcement of the president of the Turkish-American Business Association and American Chamber of Commerce in Turkey (TABA-AmCham), Ali Osman Akat, that Turkey will establish a large "Organized Industrial Zone" (OIZ/according to Turkish business law) in the USA between 2020 and 2023.
Turkey already has more than 300 such industrial zones, where companies can operate in an investment-friendly environment thanks to a well-developed infrastructure and lucrative cost and tax incentives. Now Turkish investors are planning to build an OIZ on around 200,000 hectares in the USA, probably in Texas. During TABA-AmCham delegation visits, financial implementation of the project has already been discussed with the American Chamber of Commerce, the World Bank, the American Export-Import Bank, and other financial institutions. Meanwhile, according to the Daily Sabah, Turkish businessmen are rolling up their sleeves. After all, the industrial zone should contain everything an entrepreneur's heart desires, from production facilities and warehouses to exhibition centers and technology parks, residential complexes, and social rooms. The long-term strategic goal goes far beyond 50,000 new jobs to be created.
Turkey wants to increase its influence in the USA According to Akat, the aim of the OIZ is to strengthen Turkish lobbying opportunities in the USA. An even more ambitious marketing strategy is to help this ambitious project succeed: The entire population of Turkish origin in the USA, estimated at 500,000, is to build up a cooperation and marketing network "from students and accountants to lawyers and industrialists", forming a huge trade lobby, so to speak. Behind this is the desire for economic size - from which, however, Turkey in its current economic situation is far removed.

 

[Yoyo]

@Somalili Bro, I don't think it's BMC Power specifically that's the problem. It's Rolls-Royce's IP rights belonging to Turkey. BMC Power's CEO says the IP rights will belong to the Turkish government, not to their company.

So if I'm understanding this right, it's irrespective of which Turkish company gets involved. Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't cronyism in Turkey. Of course there is, just like every other country.

 

[Zafer]

BMC? Wow, that's just ridiculous. Giving the Altay project to BMC is one thing. Involving them in the TFX project is just silly on a whole other level.

BMC will go all out with engine development. Jet fighter engine followed by turbine aircraft carrier engine. Go tiger!

 

[Ryder]

Why does bmc have to be involved with jets?

 

[Sinan]

Why does bmc have to be involved with jets?

They are not and they won't. Aircraft engine tech is another level. BMC has no experience or infrastructure to produce a complex machine like that. More over, BMC has almost no design capabilities. And on top of that forget an aircraft engine if they are so capable, they should produce a diesel engine for Altay tank...

 

[Sinan]

In recent times I've noticed that the two nations are meeting regularly, cooperating and engaging with each other in some very important matters. To counter French ambitions, it seems like the UK is partnering with Turkey.



This here is one small example, which gave me the idea to create this thread:

UK is a rational state, and seeks opportunities for itself. However being rational, they won't cooperate with Turkey despite some other big countries.

 

[Yoyo]

Why does bmc have to be involved with jets?

Maybe the Qatari investors want those dividend checks to get fatter.

 

[Anmdt]

@Somalili Bro, I don't think it's BMC Power specifically that's the problem. It's Rolls-Royce's IP rights belonging to Turkey. BMC Power's CEO says the IP rights will belong to the Turkish government, not to their company.

So if I'm understanding this right, it's irrespective of which Turkish company gets involved. Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't cronyism in Turkey. Of course there is, just like every other country.

It is not about the IP rights of the Engine, RR doesn't want to transfer technology to a company partially owned by Qatar and managed by a not so reputable person.
They can not be assured how Ethem Sancak may prefer to re-purpose the delivered tech, ie. can sell it to some undesired parties.