Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

[satria]

 

[satria]

 

[Afif]

Okay? And the Jews were there before that.

Before what? Palestinians by and large decend from ancient local inhabitants (just like Jews do) who later became arabized and Muslim. They were in the land as long as the Jews. This is also why both groups share overlapping common genetic ancestry.

That level of laughable insanity.

This is a serious discussion.

 

[SilverMachine]

Even if that's the case and we take it on that level, it's not the Jews claiming the other side have no claim and need to be forcibly deported/killed. Let's get real here. One side's "no talking, the other side must die!", one side has members of the other side welcome in their government.

 

[contricusc]

Okay? And the Jews were there before that. So, again, in the words of Bill Maher, it's like railing against Native Americans for having no right to be there. That level of laughable insanity.

The current state of Israel is made mostly of jews from Europe or America. Most of them have no connection to the Middle East, and even those who are actually descendants of the jews who left millenia ago, they have no right to claim a land their ancestors abandoned so many centuries ago.

Saying that jews being there two thousands years ago gives them rights to the land, despite the fact that they left is insane. By this logic, Europeans have rights over most of Asia, because they speak indo-european languages, so they have ancestry from Asia. Also, Australians have the right to take over Britain and Ireland whenever they want, because they came from there a few centuries ago. The Americans have the same right too. And people in Latin America have the right to invade Spain and Portugal, because it was their ancestral land where they came from.

The land belongs to the people that inhabit it. If some people migrate, after a few generations they lose any right to that land in favor of the people who stayed. Any historical claim based on what happened centuries ago is nonsense.

 

[SilverMachine]

The current state of Israel is made mostly of jews from Europe or America. Most of them have no connection to the Middle East, and even those who are actually descendants of the jews who left millenia ago, they have no right to claim a land their ancestors abandoned so many centuries ago.

Well, that sure is the disagreement, isn't it? Good luck with that as a negotiating position, I think they might have something to say on that.

And "abandoned" seems...hm, that'd be one way to put it. Not the right one, but a one. You do you, they're the one with the unconquerable military & boom-booms that'll ensure they're there for eternity or there's no more "there".

 

[contricusc]

And "abandoned" seems...hm, that'd be one way to put it. Not the right one, but a one.

Whether you use the term “abandoned”, or “left”, or “forced out”, or “sold the land”, or “migrated from”, or “moved”, or “were expelled”, or ”were conquered and had to flee”, etc., it is irrelevant. We’re talking about people who left that land centuries ago. They lost all their property and moral rights to that land.

Invoking some scripture texts that they were there thousands of years ago gives them no legal/moral claim to that land.

Legally and morally the land belongs to the inhabitants. The current state of Israel displaced the inhabitants of the land through force, so they essentially stole the land.

You do you, they're the one with the unconquerable military & boom-booms that'll ensure they're there for eternity or there's no more "there".

If you invoke conquest and military force, that’s a totally different discussion. Yes, by means of force and conquest Israel is much stronger than the Palestinians, and they have no chance to take back their land through force. They are in the same situation native-Americans or Aboriginals in Australia were when they were invaded and conquered by European settlers (Who were much better armed and organized).

So on one hand we have the legality and morality of the issue, where the Palestinians are right, and on the other hand we have the military strength and imperialist way of thinking where the Israelis are right, because they are mightier.

With such an attitude in the XXI century, it is no wonder that most of the world is against the state of Israel.

On the other hand, Palestianians don’t have much goodwill either, because of their endorsement of terrorism and their association with the hard left.

The situation resembles the eastern front of WW2, when one side was made of imperialistic fascists and the other one by terroristic communists. Two evils fighting each other.

 

[SilverMachine]

"Legality"? The UN signed off on Israel being a thing, the only "illegality" is the Arab denial of that legitimacy.

And it's nothing like the aborigines or native Americans in the manner you're meaning. The incoming Europeans didn't originate from there or have the closest thing we have to a planetary government legal mandate to start a state there. The Jews *are* the natives, and Big Daddy Law agreed they should be there. Accept that in a peaceable way or be militarily humbled, if you're in the geographical neighborhood. That literally is the law. Hell, we could even settle for "fight out in the open and in uniforms, if you feel the need to try to overturn said legality", it'd be an improvement from the self-imposed Dresden-apocalypse tactic.

 

[contricusc]

And it's nothing like the aborigines or native Americans in the manner you're meaning. The incoming Europeans didn't originate from there or have the closest thing we have to a planetary government legal mandate to start a state there.

It is exactly the same. People coming from a differnt continent to settle the land. And they had a legal mandate back in the day, from the world powers of that time. British settlers had a mandate from the British Government, Spanish settlers had a mandate from the Spanish Monarchy, etc.

That “originated from there” thing is completely bonkers. According to the same scriptures, we all originate from Adam and Eve, so we should all have rights to any land on Earth…

The Jews *are* the natives, and Big Daddy Law agreed they should be there.

No, the European and American Jews are not natives to the Middle East. You’re now simply spouting nonsense. How can people be native to a different continent from the one they lived for many generations?

The only jews that were natives to that land were the ones who already lived there before modern Israel was created as a country. Those coming from other continents were not natives.

And the Big Daddy Law was made by the world powers, who decided something with complete disregard for the rights of the natives, just like when the colonial powers made laws allowing their citizens to colonize and replace the native populations of the Americas and Australia.

Israel is a colonial state in the same way the US, Canada or Australia were back in the day when Europeans settled the land and stole it from the natives. Armed people coming from a differnt continent stealing the land from the natives and displacing them, based on some laws written by big powers on a differnt continent with complete disregard for the rigths of the natives. The situation is identical.

Accept that in a peaceable way or be militarily humbled, if you're in the geographical neighborhood. That literally is the law. Hell, we could even settle for "fight out in the open and in uniforms, if you feel the need to try to overturn said legality", it'd be an improvement from the self-imposed Dresden-apocalypse tactic.

Well, the situation is what it is now. It is surely not fair for the Palestinians, but they can’t do anything about it. I agree with you that continuing an unwinnable war and supporting terrorist organizations will not bring any good results to them.

The problem is, not even Israel wants to resolve the situation, as Netanyahu’s government is not interested in a two states solution, which is the only realistic solution under the current circumstances.

Palestinians don’t have anywhere to go, as nobody wants to host them even if they wished to abandon their native lands for good. On the other hand, Israelis will not go anywhere either, as the younger generations are now native to the land and rightfully feel that they belong there. So we have two populations that are native to the same land, who can’t see eye to eye. The only peaceful solution would be a two state solution in this case, but Israel doesn’t want that, and the extremist Palestianians don’t want it either.