Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

[satria]

 

[satria]

 

[Afif]

Okay? And the Jews were there before that.

Before what? Palestinians by and large decend from ancient local inhabitants (just like Jews do) who later became arabized and Muslim. They were in the land as long as the Jews. This is also why both groups share overlapping common genetic ancestry.

That level of laughable insanity.

This is a serious discussion.

 

[SilverMachine]

Even if that's the case and we take it on that level, it's not the Jews claiming the other side have no claim and need to be forcibly deported/killed. Let's get real here. One side's "no talking, the other side must die!", one side has members of the other side welcome in their government.

 

[contricusc]

Okay? And the Jews were there before that. So, again, in the words of Bill Maher, it's like railing against Native Americans for having no right to be there. That level of laughable insanity.

The current state of Israel is made mostly of jews from Europe or America. Most of them have no connection to the Middle East, and even those who are actually descendants of the jews who left millenia ago, they have no right to claim a land their ancestors abandoned so many centuries ago.

Saying that jews being there two thousands years ago gives them rights to the land, despite the fact that they left is insane. By this logic, Europeans have rights over most of Asia, because they speak indo-european languages, so they have ancestry from Asia. Also, Australians have the right to take over Britain and Ireland whenever they want, because they came from there a few centuries ago. The Americans have the same right too. And people in Latin America have the right to invade Spain and Portugal, because it was their ancestral land where they came from.

The land belongs to the people that inhabit it. If some people migrate, after a few generations they lose any right to that land in favor of the people who stayed. Any historical claim based on what happened centuries ago is nonsense.

 

[SilverMachine]

The current state of Israel is made mostly of jews from Europe or America. Most of them have no connection to the Middle East, and even those who are actually descendants of the jews who left millenia ago, they have no right to claim a land their ancestors abandoned so many centuries ago.

Well, that sure is the disagreement, isn't it? Good luck with that as a negotiating position, I think they might have something to say on that.

And "abandoned" seems...hm, that'd be one way to put it. Not the right one, but a one. You do you, they're the one with the unconquerable military & boom-booms that'll ensure they're there for eternity or there's no more "there".

 

[contricusc]

And "abandoned" seems...hm, that'd be one way to put it. Not the right one, but a one.

Whether you use the term “abandoned”, or “left”, or “forced out”, or “sold the land”, or “migrated from”, or “moved”, or “were expelled”, or ”were conquered and had to flee”, etc., it is irrelevant. We’re talking about people who left that land centuries ago. They lost all their property and moral rights to that land.

Invoking some scripture texts that they were there thousands of years ago gives them no legal/moral claim to that land.

Legally and morally the land belongs to the inhabitants. The current state of Israel displaced the inhabitants of the land through force, so they essentially stole the land.

You do you, they're the one with the unconquerable military & boom-booms that'll ensure they're there for eternity or there's no more "there".

If you invoke conquest and military force, that’s a totally different discussion. Yes, by means of force and conquest Israel is much stronger than the Palestinians, and they have no chance to take back their land through force. They are in the same situation native-Americans or Aboriginals in Australia were when they were invaded and conquered by European settlers (Who were much better armed and organized).

So on one hand we have the legality and morality of the issue, where the Palestinians are right, and on the other hand we have the military strength and imperialist way of thinking where the Israelis are right, because they are mightier.

With such an attitude in the XXI century, it is no wonder that most of the world is against the state of Israel.

On the other hand, Palestianians don’t have much goodwill either, because of their endorsement of terrorism and their association with the hard left.

The situation resembles the eastern front of WW2, when one side was made of imperialistic fascists and the other one by terroristic communists. Two evils fighting each other.

 

[SilverMachine]

"Legality"? The UN signed off on Israel being a thing, the only "illegality" is the Arab denial of that legitimacy.

And it's nothing like the aborigines or native Americans in the manner you're meaning. The incoming Europeans didn't originate from there or have the closest thing we have to a planetary government legal mandate to start a state there. The Jews *are* the natives, and Big Daddy Law agreed they should be there. Accept that in a peaceable way or be militarily humbled, if you're in the geographical neighborhood. That literally is the law. Hell, we could even settle for "fight out in the open and in uniforms, if you feel the need to try to overturn said legality", it'd be an improvement from the self-imposed Dresden-apocalypse tactic.