Korea KF-X/ IF-X (KF-21) program

[Chocopie]

We can't get F35's, they are messing us around over old F16's, if the timing lines up it would make sense to buy these. But i suspect if the engines are american they will create problems to stop us from being able to purchase them.

Would it really make sense? I think chances are from pretty low to zero. Türkiye clearly has chosen an independent path with TFX Kaan, Hürjet and Kizilelma. They would fill a possible fighter gap with other means than acquiring brand new KF-21 which could be restricted by US and UK.

From a pure technical point of view: TAI and KAI would make a great aerospace duo for overlapping offsets in a hypothetical Boramae deal. Both experienced in license building GE turbofan engines, integration of Turkish sub-systems and missiles on a Korean warplane would be hella interesting.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Would it really make sense? I think chances are from pretty low to zero. Türkiye clearly has chosen an independent path with TFX Kaan, Hürjet and Kizilelma. They would fill a possible fighter gap with other means than acquiring brand new KF-21 which could be restricted by US and UK.

From a pure technical point of view: TAI and KAI would make a great aerospace duo for overlapping offsets in a hypothetical Boramae deal. Both experienced in license building GE turbofan engines, integration of Turkish sub-systems and missiles on a Korean warplane would be hella interesting.

going on AK parties desperation to run back to America for inferior F16's when the USA told them to get lost after booting them out the F35 program, i suspect there is a period of time in which we need to fill the gap. Why else would they act so desperate for F16's?

So presuming there is a gap, it would have been ideal to buy these. But with the USA/UK's anglo-american agenda to balkanise the middle east at the expense of Turkiye i suspect they would restrict these too.

 

[Chocopie]

going on AK parties desperation to run back to America for inferior F16's when the USA told them to get lost after booting them out the F35 program, i suspect there is a period of time in which we need to fill the gap. Why else would they act so desperate for F16's?

So presuming there is a gap, it would have been ideal to buy these. But with the USA/UK's anglo-american agenda to balkanise the middle east at the expense of Turkiye i suspect they would restrict these too.

Not sure if it was desperation or more a way to get the 1+ billion $ back for Turkish F-35s.
A gap maybe if Ozgur upgrades for F-16 Block 30/40/50 would fail or deemed insufficient. Murad AESA radar is still not fully tested and installed afaik.

Older F-16s without modern AESA radar and BVR missiles would endanger Turkish air combat capabilities against Greek Rafales or other potential adversaries. Drones alone can‘t fill that gap.

Koreans wouldn‘t mind a deal with Türkiye at all, but as you said, the Anglo-American brotherhood has a say in that matter.

 

[Bürküt]

Would it really make sense? I think chances are from pretty low to zero. Türkiye clearly has chosen an independent path with TFX Kaan, Hürjet and Kizilelma. They would fill a possible fighter gap with other means than acquiring brand new KF-21 which could be restricted by US and UK.

From a pure technical point of view: TAI and KAI would make a great aerospace duo for overlapping offsets in a hypothetical Boramae deal. Both experienced in license building GE turbofan engines, integration of Turkish sub-systems and missiles on a Korean warplane would be hella interesting.

It could have been a nice collaboration as you said.Old Türkiye was following a similar military industrialization path as Korea.However, bad bilateral relations with the West pushed Türkiye to become a more French-like country.And I think that this situation has caused some changes in Turkey-Korea defense industry relations.For example, we would take license of the K9 howitzer and integrate our own ADOP system into it.Now there is more component-based cooperation.

 

[Chocopie]

It could have been a nice collaboration as you said.Old Türkiye was following a similar military industrialization path as Korea.However, bad bilateral relations with the West pushed Türkiye to become a more French-like country.And I think that this situation has caused some changes in Turkey-Korea defense industry relations.For example, we would take license of the K9 howitzer and integrate our own ADOP system into it.Now there is more component-based cooperation.

South Korea's defense industry concentrate it's interests on European NATO members, especially Eastern European nations like Poland. In the backdrop of the Ukrainian-Russian war these re-arming, modernizing countries offer the best defense market opportunities nowadays.

Korea wouldn't trade complete weapon systems in the future as Türkiye's MIC has matured and made technological leaps over the last two decades. There are still many fields left for complementing cooperations, just a few examples out of my mind ...

Korea would be very interested in advanced Turkish drone technology and drone warfare doctrine.
Türkiye could be interested in submarine technology like AIP fuel cell tech and Li-Ion battery systems.

Further potential fields (be it ToT or joint R&D of components):
- long-range ballistic missiles
- supersonic and hypersonic missiles (ramjet, scramjet, glider)
- space launch vehicle and satellite tech
- land-, sea- and air-based AESA radar and EW tech
- long-range, high altitude air defense (SW, HW)
- turboshaft, turbojet and turbofan engines
- submarine and hull mounted sonar tech
- USV, UUV, XLUUV program with AI swarm tech
- next generation naval laser weapons as CIW
etc.

 

[AzeriTank]

South Korea's defense industry concentrate it's interests on European NATO members, especially Eastern European nations like Poland. In the backdrop of the Ukrainian-Russian war these re-arming, modernizing countries offer the best defense market opportunities nowadays.

Korea wouldn't trade complete weapon systems in the future as Türkiye's MIC has matured and made technological leaps over the last two decades. There are still many fields left for complementing cooperations, just a few examples out of my mind ...

Korea would be very interested in advanced Turkish drone technology and drone warfare doctrine.
Türkiye could be interested in submarine technology like AIP fuel cell tech and Li-Ion battery systems.

Further potential fields (be it ToT or joint R&D of components):
- long-range ballistic missiles
- supersonic and hypersonic missiles (ramjet, scramjet, glider)
- space launch vehicle and satellite tech
- land-, sea- and air-based AESA radar and EW tech
- long-range, high altitude air defense (SW, HW)
- turboshaft, turbojet and turbofan engines
- submarine and hull mounted sonar tech
- USV, UUV, XLUUV program with AI swarm tech
- next generation naval laser weapons as CIW
etc.

there is 0 chance. Turkey already developed or a year back from prototyping most of those you mentioned..

 

[Chocopie]

there is 0 chance. Turkey already developed or a year back from prototyping most of those you mentioned..

That doesn‘t mean they can‘t cooperate, when both countries work on similar projects to cut time and budget.

 

[Yasar_TR]

there is 0 chance. Turkey already developed or a year back from prototyping most of those you mentioned..

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. What @Chocopie is suggesting is a viable cooperation between two countries where they join forces to develop certain technologies together. We see examples of these cooperative endeavours in France/UK, France/Italy, France/Germany, UK/Italy joint development programs.
The only reservation one can see is the US involvement in certain SKorean defence programs where they may have a say.
As an example, Koreans have an indigenous medium range Air Defence system KMSAM, that they developed with tech attained from the Russians. They are also developing LSAM long range AD system. But they are still buying Patriot systems and having Thaad stationed in Korean soil. So in essence this AD program is still in “ work-in-progress” stage. This is an area where common ground can be found to cooperate.
Same can be said for all the “fields” @Chocopie has listed above. So regarding joint work and cooperation has merits and I wouldn’t brush it aside so quickly.

 

[Chocopie]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. What @Chocopie is suggesting is a viable cooperation between two countries where they join forces to develop certain technologies together. We see examples of these cooperative endeavours in France/UK, France/Italy, France/Germany, UK/Italy joint development programs.
The only reservation one can see is the US involvement in certain SKorean defence programs where they may have a say.
As an example, Koreans have an indigenous medium range Air Defence system KMSAM, that they developed with tech attained from the Russians. They are also developing LSAM long range AD system. But they are still buying Patriot systems and having Thaad positioned in Korean soil. So in essence this AD program is still in “ work-in-progress” stage. This is an area where common ground can be found to cooperate.
Same can be said for all the “fields” @Chocopie has listed above. So regarding joint work and cooperation has merits and I wouldn’t brush it aside so quickly.

You nailed it @Yasar Exactly what I meant with my post. Why not join forces and create win-win-solutions in times of dwindling R&D budgets?

Many development projects besides aerospace aren‘t with US involvement like L-SAM air defense, AESA radars, missile and submarine tech etc. There‘s great potential for cooperation IMO.

 

[Chocopie]

Speaking of a not so well going cooperation …

Indonesia yet to notify Korea of payment plan for joint fighter program

Jakarta has settled only about a quarter of scheduled payments while signing separate deals to buy fighter jets with France, Qatar

The KF-21 prototype #6's first flight on June 28, 2023 (Courtesy of Korea Aerospace Industries)

Indonesia has yet to provide South Korea with a timetable for payment on a joint fighter jet program as promised, undermining trust in Jakarta’s commitment to developing an advanced multirole warplane for the air forces of the two nations.

The Southeast Asian country did not keep its pledge to inform its partner country of a payment schedule by end-June as promised. It has been overdue for its contributions to the joint development of the KF-21 fighter jet, according to South Korea’s state arms procurement agency on Sunday.

Indonesia agreed to shoulder some 1.7 trillion won ($1.3 billion), 20% of the project’s total costs of 8.8 trillion won with Korea Aerospace Industries Ltd. (KAI), the manufacturer of the warplane, in 2016 to receive a prototype and technical support for the production of 48 units in the Southeast Asian country.

Under the contract, Jakarta was already meant to have made payments of more than 1.1 trillion won but the government has so far settled only 280 billion won, said South Korea’s Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) officials.

COLLAPSING TRUST

In May, Minister of DAPA Eom Dongwhan said Indonesia vowed to notify Seoul of its payment plan for the remaining amount owed by the end of June. Senior DAPA officials including No Ji-Man, who leads the country’s homegrown fighter development project, visited Indonesia on May 10-13 to urge that payments be made in a timely manner.

Indonesia has repeatedly pledged to fulfill its commitment. When asked what the country would do if South Korea demanded that they unveil a payment schedule, Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto on June 26 told reporters that the government would make good on its promise.

Trust in the project between South Korea and Indonesia has significantly weakened, however, as the government also signed separate deals to buy fighter jets from France and Qatar.

South Korea is set to step up pressure on Indonesia for payment, a DAPA official said.

“Indonesia does not seem to be giving up on the project as its pilots and technicians are still in South Korea for training,” the official said. “We will make stronger requests for payment.”

Indonesia yet to notify Korea of payment plan for joint fighter program - KED Global

Indonesia has yet to provide South Korea with a timetable for payment on a joint fighter jet program as promised, undermining trust in Jakarta’s commitme

www.kedglobal.com

 

[Afif]

Somehow I have a feeling those 1.3 billion is never gonna be paid.
I mean, they are buying 42 Rafale (on loan) and there is new talk about F-15EX and Typhoon.

The decision to purchase Rafale seemed to me a tactical move but strategic error. I mean, by the time they will start receiving the Rafale, they probably could have gotten delivery of their locally manufactured KF-21. (2026/27)

 

[Chocopie]

Lately Indonesia also bought 12 Mirage 2000 from Qatar. Erratic procurement plans: Flankers, Rafales, Mirage 2000, F-16, T-50i, Hawks, Super Tucanos. Their air force is a nightmarish hodgepodge for mechanics.

Guess Korea will never see full payment and Indonesia will never get a prototype or manufacture their own KF-21.

 

[urban mine]

Well, considering that this is a time of modernization for the Indonesian Air Force, this confusion is not a big deal...after all, they are working on getting rid of the Flanker and the Hawks will be replaced by our KF-21...and the Super Tucanos are in the same position as our KA-1s, so I don't see it as a problem. I heard that the Mirage 2000 is an urgent gap-filler for the F-5 replacement, and it is the fastest and most capable option left for Indonesia.

The biggest problem I think is the production facility is not ready. If you look at the relevant Indonesian articles, the phrase "under-invested in facilities" is prominent. This situation is a bit difficult for me to understand, as these facilities are not just for KF-21. As they say, I think it is because the economic situation is still difficult. Or there is no available funds due to the overseas introduction of other weapons these days.

I think the payment plan will be announced in July. As I have always said, this joint project has come too far to back out and everything should be done according to the contract, so I don't think it's a problem. However, I would like to see a more serious attitude, as the noise in this process has a negative impact on the relationship between the two countries.

 

[Chocopie]

Using simultanously Russian, French, US, Korean, Brazilian and British fighter aircraft platforms is insane. Often each model in miniscule numbers like a dozen. Operational readiness goes down the drain, regular maintenance becomes a pain in the ass.

KA-1 or KT-1 just like FA-50 and T-50 are our home-made warplanes with a high availability of spare parts. KF-16s are license-produced, so a lot of local expertise available. ROKAF uses only US or Korean fighter platforms and connected ecosystems. Even then it's often difficult to get MRO for F-15K and F-35A in an acceptable time span.

Indonesia's administration doesn't have the political will to fully invest in this joint program initiated by previous governments. They play duck, wait and see as long as they can with a minimal amount of chickenshit payments not to get locked out completely.

IMO they won't put much money in their own production facilities as planned, if ever they'll probably buy KF-21 as it is (not a local IFX version) with a little bit of parts production (fuselage or wings) or screw-driver assembly and call it a day.

Edit: wording change of „fighter jet“

 

[Bürküt]

Using simultanously Russian, French, US, Korean, Brazilian and British fighter jet platforms is insane. Often each model in miniscule numbers like a dozen. Operational readiness goes down the drain, regular maintenance becomes a pain in the ass.

KA-1 or KT-1 just like FA-50 and T-50 are our home-made warplanes with a high availability of spare parts. KF-16s are license-produced, so a lot of local expertise available. ROKAF uses only US or Korean fighter jet platforms and connected ecosystems. Even then it's often difficult to get MRO for F-15K and F-35A in an acceptable time span.

Indonesia's administration doesn't have the political will to fully invest in this joint program initiated by previous governments. They play duck, wait and see as long as they can with a minimal amount of chickenshit payments not to get locked out completely.

IMO they won't put much money in their own production facilities as planned, if ever they'll probably buy KF-21 as it is (not a local IFX version) with a little bit of parts production (fuselage or wings) or screw-driver assembly and call it a day.

I don't understand the logic of getting a small amount from each platform either.

 

[urban mine]

That's the karma they've built up. And you know Indonesia is not the only country like that. As I said above, this is a time of modernization for their air force. In that document, it is mentioned that they are concerned about their availability rate and they are trying to fix it.

As I understand it, the modernization will reduce that list of countries you mentioned to at least four. I don't know when that will be, but...

Let's look at the payment plan and think about it.

 

[Chocopie]

That's the karma they've built up. And you know Indonesia is not the only country like that. As I said above, this is a time of modernization for their air force. In that document, it is mentioned that they are concerned about their availability rate and they are trying to fix it.

As I understand it, the modernization will reduce that list of countries you mentioned to at least four. I don't know when that will be, but...

Let's look at the payment plan and think about it.

Have you any direct link for that document? Did you Google translate it or do you speak Malay or Indonesian? Can‘t auto-translate it from JPEG. Thanks in advance.

 

[urban mine]

I translated that document after extracting the text with Google Image Search.

 

[Chocopie]

Ah ok, I‘m on my smartphone right now, will try it later on my desktop

 

[urban mine]

Ah ok, I‘m on my smartphone right now, will try it later on my desktop

This is basically a documentation of the their Mirage-2000. Don't expect too much from it.