Liu Xiaobo – the almost forgotten hero of Tiananmen Square | DW Documentary

[xizhimen]

OK good distortion (or poor education) of history. Just like the altered images and story filters for tianenmen itself, where Mao portrait hangs smiling at his victim's descendants.

Yes India once independent and in control of her affairs, never produced a famine that led to millions of deaths. We are happy about that....that we didnt have a mass murdering founding father that we are forced to venerate.

British colonial history is another matter. I am not going to bring up too much on when China was not in control of its land either.

But Mao has zero excuse for what he did. He forcibly continue exporting grain knowing the peasants were starving.

You can read the big debacle within CCP leadership in arguing over what to do about it. Why you think years later Mao launched the cultural revolution to get even (among other things) with the troublemakers that dared to confront and speak some basic sense to him?

Hopefully you know which authors (yes Chinese ones) to find and read regarding this, the archives.

You really think the gang of four trial was the only reckoning?

The west hates Mao so much and they made up a lot of lies to slander him, Mao made some mistakes but he also helped China get rid of some backward traditions and cultures like abolition of women's footbinding, prostition, superstition, polygomy, gambling... he instilled the idea of modern science into the general population and gave half of the population, women, equally educational rights first time in the Chinese history.
Mao was a Chinese leader and his rights and wrongs can only be measured and judged by we Chinese people, why westerners and Indians are so upset about him?

 

[xizhimen]

Simply posting things again and again will only get mod action.

Threatening to ban me again? can you provide an counter argument to it? It's a widely recoginzed fact by the international community, are you trying to deny it?

 

[xizhimen]

Just one of many researchers within China:

Yang Jisheng, senior journalist from Xinhua News Agency, concluded there were 36 million deaths due to starvation, while another 40 million others failed to be born, so that "China's total population loss during the Great Famine then comes to 76 million."

Or you going to tell me Xinhua is....how did you put it..." whatever number the west made up"

Or Mao and CCP (with the policy creating and enforcing this) are Westerners?

Anyone can make any claims, they don't have to be responsible for what they say anyway, you can make one too. some say 20 million, some say 60 million... But blaming a nutural disaster on to one individual and a political party, only happened to Mao and CCP I guess.

 

[xizhimen]

Was Mao Zedong Bad

 

[xizhimen]

Yes India once independent and in control of her affairs, never produced a famine that led to millions of deaths. We are happy about that....that we didnt have a mass murdering founding father that we are forced to venerate.

Mao may have made some failed policies which resulted in some deaths and suffering, but he never meant to make them happen, so claiming he "killed" million by the western media is so ridiculous, Indian government repeated made failed policies which result in one of the world's worst birth and child fatality rate and life expectancy many years lower than China, Can I claim that Indian government "killed‘ hundreds of million Indian people over the years?

 

[Nilgiri]

Threatening to ban me again?

I am merely pointing out that spamming is against forum rules...which you are verging on the line of a number of times, so watch yourself. If you have stated something, there is no need to nonsensically blare it 10 more times. If it is off topic subject (as this one is), you are welcome to start a new thread and I will respond to it there.

Lieing about what a mod has told or "threatened" you is clearly against the rules. I will let it slide this time since you are still a new member here adjusting in.

You broke the rule by attacking an entire country and you got a warning point on it. A warning point is nowhere near a threat to ban, and the warning was adjudged to be fair by rest of mod team. Or do you want me to bring them here to tell you?

It should be simple enough for you to understand.

can you provide an counter argument to it? It's a widely recoginzed fact by the international community, are you trying to deny it?

Again start a new thread on it. This thread is about Liu Xaobo, the CCP and Tianenmen square.

If you want to do an India vs China comparison, start the thread and tag me. You won't enjoy it....especially because you seem to rely on only assertions and copy paste links rather than actual merited debate.

Now I will leave this thread to leave you to continue as you do since you are just going in cycles with your points again and again. If someone new appears, I will chat with them if I am interested w.r.t them...as I have made my points clear...and continue with you is pretty futile dead end.

People can look up and read up the Great Leap Famine for themselves and make their own conclusions if they are so inclined.

 

[Jackdaws]

I am merely pointing out that spamming is against forum rules...which you are verging on the line of a number of times, so watch yourself. If you have stated something, there is no need to nonsensically blare it 10 more times. If it is off topic subject (as this one is), you are welcome to start a new thread and I will respond to it there.

Lieing about what a mod has told or "threatened" you is clearly against the rules. I will let it slide this time since you are still a new member here adjusting in.

You broke the rule by attacking an entire country and you got a warning point on it. A warning point is nowhere near a threat to ban, and the warning was adjudged to be fair by rest of mod team. Or do you want me to bring them here to tell you?

It should be simple enough for you to understand.




Again start a new thread on it. This thread is about Liu Xaobo, the CCP and Tianenmen square.

If you want to do an India vs China comparison, start the thread and tag me. You won't enjoy it....especially because you seem to rely on only assertions and copy paste links rather than actual merited debate.

Now I will leave this thread to leave you to continue as you do since you are just going in cycles with your points again and again. If someone new appears, I will chat with them if I am interested w.r.t them...as I have made my points clear...and continue with you is pretty futile dead end.

People can look up and read up the Great Leap Famine for themselves and make their own conclusions if they are so inclined.

So did more people die in the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution?

 

[xizhimen]

I am merely pointing out that spamming is against forum rules...which you are verging on the line of a number of times, so watch yourself. If you have stated something, there is no need to nonsensically blare it 10 more times. If it is off topic subject (as this one is), you are welcome to start a new thread and I will respond to it there.

I m not spamming to badmouth another country on daily basis, as a mod you should refrain from doing it, your bias against another country is very very obvious for everyone to see, you don't allow others to argue against you when you can not present a sensible counter argument ,which goes against the grain of this forum's basic rules and principles.

 

[xizhimen]

You broke the rule by attacking an entire country and you got a warning point on it. A warning point is nowhere near a threat to ban, and the warning was adjudged to be fair by rest of mod team. Or do you want me to bring them here to tell you?

When did I attack an entire nation? I did say that picking a weaker opponent is a sign of weakness and cowardice, this is not attacking a whole nation, it's just a matter of fact, China , US and almost all nations sometimes show signs of weaknesses and cowardice, don't try to twist my words.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

A few years ago, I met a Chinese fellow at a uni party here in Germany.
We got talking in a group and we spoke about different things regarding China, all in all good conversation until I asked him about Tiananmen Square!
He had no idea what I was talking about! He didn't know about Sincan province or the Uyghur!
Totally blinded by government propaganda.
I didn't try to educate him about it. I told him he should research for himself.

 

[xizhimen]

People can look up and read up the Great Leap Famine for themselves and make their own conclusions if they are so inclined.

I didn't bring Mao and famine issues here in this thread, you did. I was just argue about the a leader's or a government failed policy which may result in some deaths and suffering is not uncommon in the history. Though I don't like Trump, but I don't think it's fair to claim that Trump has killed over 300,000 Americans so far and he is mass murderer just because he adpoted wrong policy by discourging people wearing masks and dismiss the virus as just another cold. Cause he never meant to kill those people and it's a failed policy and a mistake he made.

 

[xizhimen]

A few years ago, I met a Chinese fellow at a uni party here in Germany.
We got talking in a group and we spoke about different things regarding China, all in all good conversation until I asked him about Tiananmen Square!
He had no idea what I was talking about! He didn't know about Sincan province or the Uyghur!
Totally blinded by government propaganda.
I didn't try to educate him about it. I told him he should research for himself.

Most young people know it but don't know much about it, true. the government doesn't talk about it , true, but more because their parents, " the Tiananmen generation" don't want to tell more of that to theire kids cause most think it's wrong.

 

[Jackdaws]

I had the opportunity of meeting someone who was present at Tiananmen Square - he had now become an American citizen. Told me how it was actually a very festive atmosphere when the protests started and that the Govt kept assuring them that they would negotiate in good faith. Till they sent in the tanks.

 

[xizhimen]

I had the opportunity of meeting someone who was present at Tiananmen Square - he had now become an American citizen. Told me how it was actually a very festive atmosphere when the protests started and that the Govt kept assuring them that they would negotiate in good faith. Till they sent in the tanks.

It's a lie.

The martial law in Beijing was issued in May. 20 1989, the action of clearing the square happened in the night of June.3 , the government gave them a good two weeks to follow the emergency law to vacate the square but they just ignored the law.

The PLA troops were blocked by the protester around 10 kilometers away from the Tiananmen Square without food and water for 2 weeks as well. Some Beijing residents voluntarily deliver food and drinks to feed the soldiers.

Taiwan TV report, 1989/05/25 , PLA troops were mobbed and trappe 10 kilometers away from Tiananmen square without food, water and toilet in hot weather for days. Soldiers had to stay in the military trucks all the time to stay safe.

 

[Jackdaws]

It's a lie.

The martial law in Beijing was issued in May. 20 1989, the action of clearing the square happened in the night of June.3 , the government gave them a good two weeks to follow the emergency law to vacate the square but they just ignored the law.

The PLA troops were blocked by the protester around 10 kilometers away from the Tiananmen Square without food and water for 2 weeks as well. Some Beijing residents voluntarily deliver food and drinks to feed the soldiers.

Taiwan TV report, 1989/05/25 , PLA troops were mobbed and trappe 10 kilometers away from Tiananmen square without food, water and toilet in hot weather for days. Soldiers had to stay in the military trucks all the time to stay safe.

So what's a lie? Not a single thing you say contradicts what that gentleman told me.

 

[xizhimen]

So what's a lie? Not a single thing you say contradicts what that gentleman told me.

They were warned and ordered to leave for weeks but they chose to ignore, it's not like PLA sudden pounced on them from nowhere.

Besides, although it's called Tiananmen incident, but not a single person was killed inside Tiananmen square, all casualties from both PLA and civilians were suffered outside the Tiananmen square. It's also called June.4 incident, it's another misnomer, cause most casualties happened at the night of June. 3rd.

The irony is that the backbone of the Chinese communist party now is made up by "Tiananmen generation",Global times chief editor Hu Xijin is one of them. They occupy and lead most CCP departments and ministries nowadays.

 

[Jackdaws]

They were warned and ordered to leave for weeks but they chose to ignore, it's not like PLA sudden pounced on them from nowhere.

Besides, although it's called Tiananmen incident, but not a single person was killed inside Tiananmen square, all casualties from both PLA and civilians were suffered outside the Tiananmen square. It's also called June.4 incident, it's another misnomer, cause most casualties happened at the night of June. 3rd.

The irony is that the backbone of the Chinese communist party now is made up by "Tiananmen generation",Global times chief editor Hu Xijin is one of them. They occupy and lead most CCP departments and ministries nowadays.

So the Communist party did not negotiate with the protestors?

 

[xizhimen]

So the Communist party did not negotiate with the protestors?

It did, an agreement was actually reached, the students agreed to withdraw from the square on May. 4. but later on they broke the agreement and went back to the square and stayed in till June.4th.

 

[Jackdaws]

It did, an agreement was actually reached, the students agreed to withdraw from the square on May. 4. but later on they broke the agreement and went back to the square and stayed in till June.4th.

OK.

 

[Nilgiri]

So did more people die in the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution?

I would say GLF (because of the famine). Cultural revolution is another big bag of tragedy.

Our friend continues the triggered spam here and all his inane comparisons typically.

He wants to try to compared todays world leaders w.r.t covid to something like this:

Throughout the Great Leap forward, while millions starved to death, China remained a net exporter of grain as Mao directed grain exports and refused offers of international food relief in order to convince the rest of the world that his plans were a success.

Anyone can read the papers and do the research regd the authors credibility (And the archives and analysis and accounts they used) themselves. It explain CCP near entirely in the end, where they are coming from, where they are, and where they are going to w.r.t their psyche and narrative. Why things seem so monolithic and thus brittle and where that goes overall for such ideologies and their regimes and fanboys in the long term when they grow well beyond their britches (and unable to realise that themselves).

I see the change just this year locally. Before far more people would tolerate the few fanboys of CCP that would pipe up (having hypocritically immigrated here or come to study here etc)...but no longer. They bring up CCP favourably now at their immediate expense...they know better. It has been made plain to them why.

I think it all speaks more than enough volumes on the issue at hand....alongside our friend's apparent inability to see the larger connection of the thread to the CCP (and thus Mao) when he bring's that up as "now I get to deflect to completely off topic stuff in return because that's all off topic, I say so!".....along with other such things he expect to hold water here among anyone reading (and all the while helping to prove my point in the end).

This is the larger issue when people living under one-party system get used to it. It is difficult comprehension chasm to cross.