TR Marine Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

[Turko]

 

[Foulgrim]

You had better investigate internal politics of Greece, while we are dealing with greek agressive expansion.
Yes Mr Tsipras did said " The Aegean sea belongs to fishes"

You do not face any aggression from Greece. The Greek Navy did not go to do hydrographic research in the Bosphorus or the Black Sea as you come to do in the center of the Aegean! Mr Tsipras does not know what he is saying because he is completely unrelated to these issues. So do not bring me Mr. Tsipras as an "example". Cesme comes to the center of the Aegean for hydrographic research and comes legally. Can you tell me exactly what this ship wants in the center of the Aegean? Are you interested in seismic activity? So that not everyone says arbitrarily what they want.

 

[Foulgrim]

View attachment 14823

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That is, in Alaska, the US has created an American lake; The whole area over there is territorial waters because Alaska has so many islands that they are connected to each other. That is, what happens with the Aegean islands. I did not say to turn the whole Atlantic Ocean into a British or American lake because they simply do not have islands to create 12 nautical mile territorial waters.
This is the real increase of the territorial waters of Greece to 12 nautical miles and not what you showed. What you showed was a science fiction script!
Aegean 12 nm

 

[Turko]

You do not face any aggression from Greece. The Greek Navy did not go to do hydrographic research in the Bosphorus or the Black Sea as you come to do in the center of the Aegean! Mr Tsipras does not know what he is saying because he is completely unrelated to these issues. So do not bring me Mr. Tsipras as an "example". Cesme comes to the center of the Aegean for hydrographic research and comes legally. Can you tell me exactly what this ship wants in the center of the Aegean? Are you interested in seismic activity? So that not everyone says arbitrarily what they want.

Yeah, the peaceful greeks just are going to double their coasts nonetheless they can draw EEZ lines by themselves. They are such peaceful neighbors.

 

[Foulgrim]

Yeah, the peaceful greeks just are going to double their coasts nonetheless they can draw EEZ lines by themselves. They are such peaceful neighbors.

I did not say to define the Exclusive Economic Zone unilaterally and voluntarily but according to the Law of the Sea and according to the middle line method wherever this is required.

 

[Turko]

I did not say to define the Exclusive Economic Zone unilaterally and voluntarily but according to the Law of the Sea and according to the middle line method wherever this is required.

You seem to establish own court with own law. You have to understand that you can't step up on without Turkish permission once we are two neighbors sharing same asset. You have to understand that the way to draw any borders passing from negotiations with us.

 

[Foulgrim]

You seem to establish own court with own law. You have to understand that you can't step up on without Turkish permission once we are two neighbors sharing same asset. You have to understand that the way to draw any borders passing from negotiations with us.

I am not saying that there should be no negotiations, but always in accordance with the Law of the Sea and not with the expansionist mentalities of Turkey. Unless the Turkish-Libyan Memorandum is a sign of good will.......! By what legal right did Oruc Reis conduct underwater research in the summer in waters that are theoretically the Exclusive Economic Zone of Greece! Normally, Turkey and Greece should talk about the settlement of territorial waters and the Exclusive Economic Zone, not Libya, with which it does not border!

 

[Melkor]

1) Canada-US confrontation over the Gulf of Maine
2) Tunisia-Libya Confrontation(1982)
3) Canada-France confrontation(1992) where the EEZ was limited to a very narrow lane but the 12 nautical miles remained
4) Norway-Denmark confrontation(1993) where the midline was again modified taking into account other criteria
5) Bahrain-Qatar Confrontation (2001)
Very important for the Greek-Turkish dispute is the Court's decision on the Romania-Ukraine dispute in 2009. The court's decision defined the continental shelf ignoring Serpents Island. Almost all of these cases involved disputes between states with islands closer to the opposite state than to the state to which they belong. But no island, regardless of where it was located, was deprived of the right to 12 nautical miles. Turkey is talking about war in case Greece implements the expansion of its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles. If this is not the epitome of absurdity then what is?

Thanks but None of these examples have anywhere near comparable geography and therefore lopsided consequences for the party in Turkeys position.

 

[Foulgrim]

Thanks but None of these examples have anywhere near comparable geography and therefore lopsided consequences for the party in Turkeys position.

You will not find exact geography anywhere in any of these cases or in any of the others that exist. In all these cases there were disputes but they were resolved on the basis of the Law of the Sea, also no island was given reduced influence in the territorial waters. There have been cases where both warring states have kept their territorial waters at 3 or 6 nautical miles, but this was done after discussion and mutual agreement. Turkey in this case threatens Greece and saying that the extension of territorial waters from 6 to 12 nautical miles is a cause of war. This is by no means a dialogue, no other country is blackmailing in such a cynical way. All countries more or less enter the dialogue process, only Turkey threatens. The islands have the right to a maximum extension of their territorial waters to 12 nautical miles under the Law of the Sea. They are UN resolutions of which 157 countries are members and 168 countries have voted in part. Only 15 countries have a negative attitude and which are the following: Andorra, Eritrea, Israel, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Peru, San Marino, South Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Holy See, Venezuela

 

[Melkor]

You will not find exact geography anywhere in any of these cases or in any of the others that exist. In all these cases there were disputes but they were resolved on the basis of the Law of the Sea, also no island was given reduced influence in the territorial waters. There have been cases where both warring states have kept their territorial waters at 3 or 6 nautical miles, but this was done after discussion and mutual agreement. Turkey in this case threatens Greece and saying that the extension of territorial waters from 6 to 12 nautical miles is a cause of war. This is by no means a dialogue, no other country is blackmailing in such a cynical way. All countries more or less enter the dialogue process, only Turkey threatens. The islands have the right to a maximum extension of their territorial waters to 12 nautical miles under the Law of the Sea. They are UN resolutions of which 157 countries are members and 168 countries have voted in part. Only 15 countries have a negative attitude and which are the following: Andorra, Eritrea, Israel, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Peru, San Marino, South Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Holy See, Venezuela

If the geography is unusual then it is not unreasonable to expect the solution to also be unusual. Hence why UNCLOS shouldn't be treated as the be all and end all due to the convenient argument of customary law.

 

[Sinan]

greece has no power to enfoce anything and Turkish power is only growing.

Instead of saying "We are right because we are stronk". We should bring our arguments onto the table.

We can use;

From Rep. of Turkey Ministry of Foreign Affairs

www.mfa.gov.tr

And Cihat Yaycı's publications as the base of our arguments.

 

[Ryder]

Instead of saying "We are right because we are stronk". We should bring our arguments onto the table.

We can use;

From Rep. of Turkey Ministry of Foreign Affairs

www.mfa.gov.tr

And Cihat Yaycı's publications as the base of our arguments.

Might is Right

 

[Foulgrim]

If the geography is unusual then it is not unreasonable to expect the solution to also be unusual. Hence why UNCLOS shouldn't be treated as the be all and end all due to the convenient argument of customary law.

The Law of the Sea can resolve the dispute between Turkey and Greece in the Aegean. I do not think that the Aegean is an exception. Here was found a solution for the Spratly Islands between China & Philippines and no solution can be found between Turkey and Greece in the Aegean? The fact that China and other countries do not accept the ruling of the international court is another matter, but at least one decision has been made.

South China Sea Arbitration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Test7]

I think the issue needs to be clarified. Because otherwise other people may think that Turkey is doing seismic surveys in the waters of Greece.

1. Greece and Turkey in the Aegean has 6 Mile(Blue and red colors)

2. The remaining white parts are international waters. Scientific seismic research can be done in international waters (White area), but oil cannot be extracted with a drill ship, because EEZ has not yet been determined.
3. Riparian countries, Turkey and Greece have not yet signed the agreement EEZ.
4. Greece can declare their EEZ without Turkey(with an equal line between the two mainland)
5. Island cannot generate maritime zones beyond territorial waters breadth in delimitation of continental shelf and EEZ.

For court decisions related to this;

Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

Mavi Vatan doctrin is Turkeys way of breaking another Sevré that Europe or the west has been trying to impose on Turkey. The first higher education on maritime law was established in 1995 if I recall correct, which is pretty late considering how Greece has been expanding their influence silently...

defencehub.live

The most effective way to solve the problem is an equal line between the two countries' mainland. Otherwise, this problem is not solvable.

 

[Melkor]

The Law of the Sea can resolve the dispute between Turkey and Greece in the Aegean. I do not think that the Aegean is an exception. Here was found a solution for the Spratly Islands between China & Philippines and no solution can be found between Turkey and Greece in the Aegean? The fact that China and other countries do not accept the ruling of the international court is another matter, but at least one decision has been made.

South China Sea Arbitration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My understanding of that ruling is that China’s maximalist claim was rejected. The bunch of atols and islets that make up Spratly are hundreds of km away from mainland China and closer to the Philippines and even Brunei for that matter. Not only that, the South China Sea has serious territorial disputes involving other countries. I don’t see how this example can be used to build a case that Turkey should resolve the matter via UNCLOS. Have you seen the size of the area China is claiming in the SCS? Turkey is not behaving like China.

 

[Foulgrim]

I think the issue needs to be clarified. Because otherwise other people may think that Turkey is doing seismic surveys in the waters of Greece.

1. Greece and Turkey in the Aegean has 6 Mile(Blue and red colors)

View attachment 14847

2. The remaining white parts are international waters. Scientific seismic research can be done in international waters (White area), but oil cannot be extracted with a drill ship, because EEZ has not yet been determined.
3. Riparian countries, Turkey and Greece have not yet signed the agreement EEZ.
4. Greece can declare their EEZ without Turkey(with an equal line between the two mainland)
5. Island cannot generate maritime zones beyond territorial waters breadth in delimitation of continental shelf and EEZ.

For court decisions related to this;

Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

Mavi Vatan doctrin is Turkeys way of breaking another Sevré that Europe or the west has been trying to impose on Turkey. The first higher education on maritime law was established in 1995 if I recall correct, which is pretty late considering how Greece has been expanding their influence silently...

defencehub.live

The most effective way to solve the problem is an equal line between the two countries' mainland. Otherwise, this problem is not solvable.

1) Turkey with Cesme did not claim to do hydrographic research in the territorial waters of Greece as the NAVTEX that was issued concerns international waters
2) The Oruc Reis did underwater (not hydrographic) research in the summer-autumn of 2020 by placing sonar cables in an area of international water. However, these international waters that did the research are part of the Exclusive Economic Zone of Greece. In other words, what Oruc Reis did was illegal because it did research for hydrocarbons in an area that can only be exploited by Greece.
3) The islands are a mainland when they create a complex of many islands together. You will not measure the middle line from Athens or Thessaloniki to the coasts of Asia Minor but from the respective Aegean island to the coasts of Asia Minor using the midline method. If there were scattered islands in the Aegean, what you say would be true, but since there is a complex of hundreds of inhabited islands, then they are part of the mainland.
4) All the islands of the planet have territorial waters, a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone, provided of course that they are habitable and host life on them. China, for example, is turning the uninhabited islands in the Spratly Islands from reefs into artificial islands with military bases on them to give them a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone. What China is doing is illegal but I bring it as an example to prove to you that the islands have an Exclusive Economic Zone and a continental shelf beyond their territorial waters. This is what the Law of the Sea says. Unfortunately, Turkey has not yet voted for it like some other countries and does not accept it.

 

[Foulgrim]

My understanding of that ruling is that China’s maximalist claim was rejected. The bunch of atols and islets that make up Spratly are hundreds of km away from mainland China and closer to the Philippines and even Brunei for that matter. Not only that, the South China Sea has serious territorial disputes involving other countries. I don’t see how this example can be used to build a case that Turkey should resolve the matter via UNCLOS. Have you seen the size of the area China is claiming in the SCS? Turkey is not behaving like China.

I brought it as an example to see that it is not possible for so many involved countries to find a solution in a complex of islands and not to be found between Greece and Turkey in the Aegean? It is a fact that China and other countries involved do not approve of the decision. But a rudimentary solution by an international tribunal is better than nothing.

 

[Test7]

1) Turkey with Cesme did not claim to do hydrographic research in the territorial waters of Greece as the NAVTEX that was issued concerns international waters
2) The Oruc Reis did underwater (not hydrographic) research in the summer-autumn of 2020 by placing sonar cables in an area of international water. However, these international waters that did the research are part of the Exclusive Economic Zone of Greece. In other words, what Oruc Reis did was illegal because it did research for hydrocarbons in an area that can only be exploited by Greece.
3) The islands are a mainland when they create a complex of many islands together. You will not measure the middle line from Athens or Thessaloniki to the coasts of Asia Minor but from the respective Aegean island to the coasts of Asia Minor using the midline method. If there were scattered islands in the Aegean, what you say would be true, but since there is a complex of hundreds of inhabited islands, then they are part of the mainland.
4) All the islands of the planet have territorial waters, a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone, provided of course that they are habitable and host life on them. China, for example, is turning the uninhabited islands in the Spratly Islands from reefs into artificial islands with military bases on them to give them a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone. What China is doing is illegal but I bring it as an example to prove to you that the islands have an Exclusive Economic Zone and a continental shelf beyond their territorial waters. This is what the Law of the Sea says. Unfortunately, Turkey has not yet voted for it like some other countries and does not accept it.

I guess you claim that the island, which is within swimming distance from Turkey, is on the Greek mainland. As I said above, these claims are not resolvable unless the two countries have equal lines.

 

[Turko]

Greeks invaded our city "Smyrna", They almost reached Ankara. we banished those agressors whose descendants would repeat same agression. We didn't forget the greek armies on our soil.
If Greeks were peaceful , would they have expanded their coastal from 3 to 6?
If they were peaceful , would they demand 12miles?

Greek agression need to be stopped.

 

[Sinan]

2) The Oruc Reis did underwater (not hydrographic) research in the summer-autumn of 2020 by placing sonar cables in an area of international water. However, these international waters that did the research are part of the Exclusive Economic Zone of Greece. In other words, what Oruc Reis did was illegal because it did research for hydrocarbons in an area that can only be exploited by Greece.
3) The islands are a mainland when they create a complex of many islands together. You will not measure the middle line from Athens or Thessaloniki to the coasts of Asia Minor but from the respective Aegean island to the coasts of Asia Minor using the midline method. If there were scattered islands in the Aegean, what you say would be true, but since there is a complex of hundreds of inhabited islands, then they are part of the mainland.
4) All the islands of the planet have territorial waters, a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone, provided of course that they are habitable and host life on them. China, for example, is turning the uninhabited islands in the Spratly Islands from reefs into artificial islands with military bases on them to give them a continental shelf and an Exclusive Economic Zone. What China is doing is illegal but I bring it as an example to prove to you that the islands have an Exclusive Economic Zone and a continental shelf beyond their territorial waters. This is what the Law of the Sea says. Unfortunately, Turkey has not yet voted for it like some other countries and does not accept it.

You know, these are just Greek thesis.