TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[TheInsider]

Both UMTAS and OMTAS are NLOS(You don't need to see the target to fire at it) missiles but they don't have any loitering capability.

 

[dustdevil]

There is a question. Do we classify Umtas IIR for LOS Missile or NLOS missile? Or something mixed? Some people in social media say it is a kind of LOS but others choose NLOS.

If UMTAS can hit a target that is out of sight it could be classified as a NLOS missile. But there are things that should be improved:

- range is 8km (İsmail Demir mentioned 16 km for LUMTAS and it should be illumination by 3rd parties for a NLOS target).
- the datalink is LOS, so a scenario where a ground launcher controlling an IIR UMTAS at low level or until missile reaches its target could not be possible easily if there are obstacles. In the second case missile can be switched to forget mode but launcher will not able to control the rest of the flight and see the result until it is confirmed by other sources.
- seeker image quality (perhaps by adding multiple seekers) should improve for seeker/hunter/scout types of scenarios

The term is from 80s.. with new technology maybe the designation does not even matter. For commercial purposes, I’d not name it a NLOS missile until range is extended a bit more.

 

[TheInsider]

If UMTAS can hit a target that is out of sight it could be classified as a NLOS missile. But there are things that should be improved:

- range is 8km (İsmail Demir mentioned 16 km for LUMTAS and it should be illumination by 3rd parties for a NLOS target).
- the datalink is LOS, so a scenario where a ground launcher controlling an IIR UMTAS at low level or until missile reaches its target could not be possible easily if there are obstacles. In the second case missile can be switched to forget mode but launcher will not able to control the rest of the flight and see the result until it is confirmed by other sources.
- seeker image quality (perhaps by adding multiple seekers) should improve for seeker/hunter types of scenarios

The term is from 80s.. with new technology maybe the designation does not even matter. For commercial purposes, I’d not name it a NLOS missile until range is extended a bit more.

This is wrong. In NLOS mode you fire the missile to a "coordinate". This is not a blind coordinate most of the time target is tailed by other drones or forward observers. The missile ascends to a height that it can see the target directly and travels to the given coordinate(this also means LOS datalink connection is preserved until the terminal phase when the missile dives to the target) at some point the missile locks on to the target(operator can change the target if there are multiple targets).

Most of the time there are drones like TB2 or smaller drones that pass the coordinates or forward observers.

 

[dustdevil]

This is wrong. In NLOS mode you fire the missile to a "coordinate". The missile ascends to a height that it can see the target directly and travels to the given coordinate(this also means LOS datalink connection is preserved until the terminal phase when the missile dives to the target) at some point the missile locks on to the target(operator can change the target if there are multiple targets).

Most of the time there are drones like TB2 or smaller drones that pass the coordinates or forward observers.

Which part of it is wrong?

Imagine a big mountain or obstacle. To hit a target on the other part you need to launch the missile. In order to preserve LOS for datalink you need the missile flying at a higher altitude and you won’t be able to control the missile close to the end of the terminal phase. Imagine the tank turns out to be an ambulance and you need to cancel 3 seconds before the impact.

With fiber optic connection you can hug the terrain and can cancel at last minute. With LOS RF datalink and uncooled low res IIR it is harder to do.

I describe this and tell it should be improved but I am suddenly all wrong.

 

[TheInsider]

Imagine the tank turns out to be an ambulance and you need to cancel 3 seconds before the impact.

You don't know how NLOS engagements work. First, you spot the target and make sure it is a military target. This is mostly done by TB2s and other drones that can pass very high-quality images which makes sure the target is a legit military target. They are there to spot the target, pass it to fire teams and make a damage assessment after the strike and make sure the target is neutralized.

There are also studies to use those drones as range extenders/relays for LOS datalinks but I don't know the current progress on that.

 

[dustdevil]

You don't know how NLOS engagements work. First, you spot the target and make sure it is a military target. This is mostly done by TB2s and other drones that can pass very high-quality images which makes sure the target is a legit military target. They are there to spot the target, pass it to fire teams and make a damage assessment after the strike and make sure the target is neutralized.

There are also studies to use those drones as range extenders/relays for LOS datalinks but I don't know the current progress on that.

Go to 3:51 and see this capability. You think I don’t know about NLOS targeting but I already mentioned “other sources” for confirmation in my original post.

Do you think inventor of Spike added an unnecessary feature?

In your static NLOS warfare concept (which is nothing new and dates back to ww1) you are tied to 3rd parties for finding and destroying correct targets. Human errors always happen and you might not have a TB2 overhead or any other source at one time.

As an insider you should read about war history, perhaps some cold war concepts.

 

[TheInsider]

UMTAS is not Spike NLOS and it won't ever be. Spike NLOS costs 210k $ per missile. UMTAS costs a fraction of that while providing most of its usefulness. There is a reason why there is a UMTAS NLOS project.

You should wait for Kuzgun-KY and UMTAS NLOS rather than turning UMTAS into SPIKE NLOS.

 

[dustdevil]

UMTAS is not Spike NLOS and it won't ever be. Spike NLOS costs 210k $ per missile. UMTAS costs a fraction of that while providing most of its usefulness. There is a reason why there is a UMTAS NLOS project.

You should wait for Kuzgun-KY and UMTAS NLOS rather than turning UMTAS into SPIKE NLOS.

Hence my original post including some recommendations and marketing advice for NLOS tag.

 

[TheInsider]

If UMTAS can hit a target that is out of sight it could be classified as a NLOS missile. But there are things that should be improved

You are suggesting improvements on the original UMTAS. UMTAS NLOS is a completely new missile(shape and geometry might resemble UMTAS). That is why it is taking this long for it to materialize.

 

[dustdevil]

You are suggesting improvements on the original UMTAS. UMTAS NLOS is a completely new missile(shape and geometry might resemble UMTAS). That is why it is taking this long for it to materialize.

I'm answering to a question in that first post. Honestly I read your post telling the same thing after I sent mine. If I had read it before I would not have sent it because it's almost the same information.

Technically current UMTAS is a NLOS missile because of operation type with regards to NLOS targets. But people who don't think about general concepts but only in names would compare it with other more advanced NLOS missiles and that would lead to wrong conclusions. Even Roketsan does not advertise UMTAS as NLOS.

Hence the need to improve UMTAS, either in a new way or by improving the old one. Interestingly Turkish people become very patriotic when our domestic missiles are critiqued. Even a slight recommendation to the missile is met with very defensive messages. They don't care or read about old but more advanced concepts developed in the last century. They see world as black & white. There could be a spectrum of missiles between UMTAS and future UMTAS NLOS. Adding a secondary sensor like a low light camera, adding a slightly larger rocket engine or a better datalink may not cost much but will increase the effectiveness of the missile. With good image quality the missile itself could be used to observe the battlefield or pinpoint a part of the target that UAV cameras cannot even see. Using drones and other sources should not be mutually exclusive....

 

[Anmdt]

the datalink is LOS

This was the major parameter when the missile range was initially set in 2000s if i recall correctly. The data-link was rather weak (there also have been several comments on that) and it wasn't effective even if it is within the LOS range

If i recally correctly again, there has been some "leaps" on the domestic data-link range and terminals in recent years.

The fiber optic cable is a good redundancy for heavy EW environments as well. I do support it and i don't know why Army is not requiring it (or whether it was related to lacking some skills and Roketsan now can fulfill those in the incoming years)

Meanwhile they are developing smart munitions network (a broader application of Kement), yet it is not clear how they will implement it and how much delay will exist. Still it makes a fiber necessary for first few km, just in case.

 

[TheInsider]

The fiber optic cable is a good redundancy for heavy EW environments as well. I do support it and i don't know why Army is not requiring it (or whether it was related to lacking some skills and Roketsan now can fulfill those in the incoming years)

It is really hard to jam datalinks(the ones that have several hundred km range) but still quite possible.
It is nearly impossible to jam short-range datalinks. That is because both transmitter and receiver are really close to each other and the jamming device has to be insanely powerful to jam datalinks at that range.

BTW Gökdoğan Phase 2 is coming out really well the range of the missile will be increased to over a hundred km.

 

[dustdevil]

This was the major parameter when the missile range was initially set in 2000s if i recall correctly. The data-link was rather weak (there also have been several comments on that) and it wasn't effective even if it is within the LOS range

If i recally correctly again, there has been some "leaps" on the domestic data-link range and terminals in recent years.

The fiber optic cable is a good redundancy for heavy EW environments as well. I do support it and i don't know why Army is not requiring it (or whether it was related to lacking some skills and Roketsan now can fulfill those in the incoming years)

Meanwhile they are developing smart munitions network (a broader application of Kement), yet it is not clear how they will implement it and how much delay will exist. Still it makes a fiber necessary for first few km, just in case.

As a civilian I was surprised when they selected RF for datalink. Back then there were no examples or capabilities other than aircraft launched munitions using RF. The video quality for OMTAS and UMTAS are barely acceptable imho. They probably get the %90 work done but one must imagine other scenarios and continue improvement.
Judging from released videos, video quality wise OMTAS definitely looks worse and analog-like and with artefacts. Compared with this UMTAS video quality looks better and more digital like (bandwidth could be greater because of assured LOS by helicopter launches maybe). With only IIR seeker it's normal I guess and it's ok for the range. But with IIR seeker there are stuff which can't be seen by the seeker i.e imagine the Z marks on Russian tanks or glass barriers. If two sides operate the same kind of vehicles it would be very hard to distinguish details and surface features with IIR. A low light camera would help a lot with possible fusion with IIR sensor.

 

[TheInsider]

Umtas is over 10 years old in design (Project started in 2005 design phase ended in 2008) and has 384*288 25µm pitch microbolometer type dedector. Umtas NLOS will have either 640*480 17µm(currently in mass production) or 12 µm pitch(currently sampling) microbolometer type detectors.

As you know Umtas is also updated recently with more range and RF datalink is changed with a better one but i couldn't manage to confirm whether the seeker is changed.

 

[godel44]

It is really hard to jam datalinks(the ones that have several hundred km range) but still quite possible.
It is nearly impossible to jam short-range datalinks. That is because both transmitter and receiver are really close to each other and the jamming device has to be insanely powerful to jam datalinks at that range.

BTW Gökdoğan Phase 2 is coming out really well the range of the missile will be increased to over a hundred km.

That's great news about Gökdoğan. But we didn't even have Phase 1 in serial production yet. Are they going to start serial production with Phase 2?

 

[Anmdt]

I was personally expecting something to be announced today, related to new projects and ongoing projects.

Possibly delayed to April. Let's hope it will not take long.

 

[Huelague]

I was personally expecting something to be announced today, related to new projects and ongoing projects.

Possibly delayed to April. Let's hope it will not take long.

Come on, which project you are talking about?

 

[Zafer]

It could be about Hürjet but two major events on the same day is a waste so the next date that makes sense makes sense.

 

[Anmdt]

Come on, which project you are talking about?

It is 18th March naval victory day after all.

At least Akya / National 76mm would be enough.

 

[Successwill]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504908907076018183

Any guesses about X=?