TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Gary]

Our the lightest MRL system (107 mm) for mountain warfare.
View attachment 50392 Can be turn into a more valuable weapon with guided munitions.

View attachment 50393

isn't this too heavy for mountain warfare ? I wonder if air launched miniature missile + drones would be a better solution

 

[Merzifonlu]

isn't this too heavy for mountain warfare ?

You think wrong. Ability is ability. You never know when you will need it. I think it's a very necessary solution, if China sells it, let's buy it now!

We can develop a similar one over Cirit. However, since we have a much higher priority projects such as air defense systems & Goktuğ missile family & Akbaba anti radiation missile, we cannot allocate time, money and human resources to this work. It will be much cheaper to buy.

 

[zio]

On the first test video of bozdoğan AA missile the target was şimşek,the second one is unkown.Şimşek is not a supersonik target drone,although a little bit faster banshee target drone is not too.Tusaş says there is 6 months to come supersonik şimşek.Without supersonik target drone the tests should not be completed.The other point is flare issue.Tusaş web side says they are working on şimşek for flare capability.Thats is second main test shoul be passed,so there is at least one year for bozdoğan to be accepted,if everything goes right.

 

[Timur]

Nuclear, maybe not! Because nuclear weapons burn and destroy everything, leaving no usable loot. Is that all? No. It also leaves behind uncontrolled radioactive pollution. However, chemical or biological weapons are both lethal and more controlled for later.

Do you know how long you destroy the place with some kinds of biological weapons it could be up to 50 years! Depending on what you use

 

[Hasanrize]

Nuclear, maybe not! Because nuclear weapons burn and destroy everything, leaving no usable loot. Is that all? No. It also leaves behind uncontrolled radioactive pollution. However, chemical or biological weapons are both lethal and more controlled for later.

Biological weapons are the most unpredictable; as you saw from Covid-19, they can spread like there is no tomorrow. As a virologist, I can say that they are also not easy to deploy at all. Some bacterias like Anthrax are very easy, but that shit stays there literally for centuries. The UK made a test and regret its decision so severely.

Chemical weapons are ineffective, literally. Aum Shinrikyo made two separate attacks in Japan. Both attacks had plenty of optimal situations, yet they only managed to kill a handful of people. The amount of chemicals to be deployed is insane for success. Thundef00t had a video about it with calculation. Of course, things are different if you want to cause terror.

Those are why states easily agreed to abandon them but not nuclear weapons.

 

[Heartbang]

where does the 700 km range figure comes from in the BORA missile's Wikipedia page?

Bora (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bogeyman]

Those who think that, after war in ukraine the first lesson to be learnt is countries should produce much more munitions (especially precision guided ones) are not completely right.

The U.S. Isn’t Ready to Face China on the Battlefield​

The Biden administration is doubling down on its recognition of China as America’s main competitor. The recently released National Security Strategy and the soon-to-be-released National Defense Strategy—Congress has already received a version of the latter—conclude that China poses the most significant threat to the U.S. What administration officials haven’t said, however, is that the U.S. isn’t fully prepared to fight a major war against China.

The war in Ukraine has exposed deficiencies in America’s defense industrial base that could jeopardize the ability to fight a war with China. The capabilities for fighting are also essential for deterring China. Washington’s assistance to Ukraine has depleted U.S. stocks of some weapons systems and munitions, such as Stinger surface-to-air missile systems, M777 howitzers, 155mm ammunition, and Javelin antitank missile systems.

It has nothing to do with it. In wars, ammunition stock has a very important place not only in quality but also in quantity. A war is not won with MK series smart bombs alone. The US had hundreds of thousands of mortar ammunition and more than 10,000 anti-tank ATGM inventory. However, today they realized that this inventory is insufficient against Russia.

Moreover, Turkey almost finished the storm howitzer ammunition and 120 mm tank ammunition(I remember very clearly that only sabot shells remained in the inventory, and HE shells were exhausted.) in Operation Olive Branch. Therefore, urgent imports had to be made from abroad. If the TAF's inventory can be exhausted even for only one district, imagine the production that needs to be done for Greece. And believe me, I have friends from soldiers and journalists who see the tally of the ammunition consumed.

 

[Osman]

What I am trying to explain about ammunition is that it has always been insufficient for armies and will continue to be. And the smart use of ammunition, its cost-effective use and sustainable mass production ability are some of the important factors to win a war.

I think we should not confuse Turkey's peacetime ammunition production capacity with its mobilization time capacity. You are right you can not win a war with only guidance kits, you can use this sentence for every kind of munition (balistic missiles, cruise missiles, kamikazedrones..) But we can't underestimate the diversity of Turkish guided munitions and production capacity of Turkey.

Apart from that, yes, Turkey should have much more ammunition in its stock than a European country.

 

[Gary]

What is the production capacity of Turkish missile industry ? Last year I read around 600+ SOM had been delivered to the TAF. But no mention on when the production run start.

 

[Trakya_forever]

What is the production capacity of Turkish missile industry ? Last year I read around 600+ SOM had been delivered to the TAF. But no mention on when the production run start.

It is nearly the number of recent orders not deliveries.

 

[Osman]

80 Som had been delievered as LRIP (Law Rate Initial Production). A few weeks ago, Minister of Trade Varank wrote there are 250 + indigeneous cruise missile in the inventory (we don'te know the real number but maybe around 350 or more). So far the production speed was not sufficient because the turbojet engines were french and they put a silent ambargo on engines in 2020. The production still continued till now in small scale, because a considerable amount of engines had already been delievered before.

Now Kale Group began to produce their own design turbojet engines which will make the production much faster and the missile more capable (in terms of range). Vice Chairman of Kale Group said next year they will produce a considerable amount of engines for Atmaca and SOM. We will see the real potential within a few years. Bu as I repeated several times these are peace time productions. Besides Kale, companies like TEI and IdeaLab and maybe others have and will have mass production ability during a general mobilisation.

 

[zio]

We are alot of missile projects but not enough target drone capability.There is two type target drone we are using,şimşek and quinetic-banshee.Şimşek is insufficent to mimic antiship missiles,because it too slow and have not sea skimming mode,banshee has sea skimming but not enough fast.Şimşek is not fast to test bozdoğan and have not flare capable,but banshee have flare flares but we did not see in tests,it goes on for other missile tests.We need a capable target drones urgently,otherwise we can not be sure that our missiles are good enough.For example we will put Gökdeniz on our istif class frigate,without testing against a harpoon missile.

 

[TheInsider]

Next year, triple-digit engines will be delivered for cruise missile production. My educated guesstimate is 150.

 

[Osman]

Next year, triple-digit engines will be delivered for cruise missile production. My educated guesstimate is 150.

Even more maybe. At least after 2024 the number should rise to 500-600, because besides som and atmaca, there will be need for different engines: kuzgun turbojet (idelab?), kara atmaca and som er (ktj 3700), çakır (ktj 1750) and who knows...gezgin (arat).

Osman bey (vice chairman of kale group) in his interview made last week, said this year they will deliver 12 + ktj 3200 for som and atmaca (this makes 6 + per months) and much more in 2023. He stressed that next year the production number will be really high compared to 2022 but it is confidential.

 

[TheInsider]

Even more maybe. At least after 2024 the number should rise to 500-600, because besides som and atmaca, there will be need for different engines: kuzgun turbojet (idelab?), kara atmaca and som er (ktj 3700), çakır (ktj 1750) and who knows...gezgin (arat).

Osman bey (vice chairman of kale group) in his interview made last week, said this year they will deliver 12 + ktj 3200 for som and atmaca (this makes 6 + per months) and much more in 2023.

I'm talking about big cruise missiles like SOM, and ATMACA variants. Basically KTJ-3200 and bigger engines. The number will never rise to 500-600 even if we take small cruise missiles into consideration unless we sell those missiles to more than a dozen countries like the TB2. We simply don't have the required budget to buy 500-600 cruise missiles per year.

 

[NitricAcid]

Roketsan General Manager Murat İKİNCİ and Kale Arge General Manager Cüneyt KENGER made important statements about Turkey's national missile projects and the engines to be used in these missiles.

 

[Osman]

I'm talking about big cruise missiles like SOM, and ATMACA variants. Basically KTJ-3200 and bigger engines. The number will never rise to 500-600 even if we take small cruise missiles into consideration unless we sell those missiles to more than a dozen countries like the TB2. We simply don't have the required budget to buy 500-600 cruise missiles per year.

Çakır and Kuzgun are said to be cost effective solutions. Stormbreaker, equivalent of kuzgun is 190 k dollars. If we can produce kuzgun TJ for 250k dollars. 200 kuzgun per year makes 50 million dollars. Let's add this 100 çakır (50 mil dollars) and 200 som/atmaca (200 mil. dollars) variants. Why not?

 

[Oublious]

beside that we have a lot of American and Israel cruise missiles.

 

[TheInsider]

Çakır and Kuzgun are said to be cost effective solutions. Stormbreaker, equivalent of kuzgun is 190 k dollars. If we can produce kuzgun TJ for 250k dollars. 200 kuzgun per year makes 50 million dollars. Let's add this 100 çakır (50 mil dollars) and 200 som/atmaca (200 mil. dollars) variants. Why not?

I don't think stormbreaker price is that low. The price of our missiles might be though. Even then we won't buy that much. Missiles and platforms are planned together. The Navy will buy Atmaca for their new ships, and ground-based batteries. Those will be purchased in batches in the following years. Land forces will buy Atmaca Kara starting 2024-2025 missiles will be delivered together with batteries. Out of 485 SOM nearly 300 are delivered. You see we don't have enough orders in line to deliver 200 SOM/Atmaca per year. Çakır and Kuzgun are not ready they will also be delivered with their platforms.

 

[Osman]

beside that we have a lot of American and Israel cruise missiles.

We have 98 slam er (source: sipri) and some popeye 1s. For popeyes there are different numbers in open sources (100, 196, few hundreds etc). But their delivery was between 1997-2002, they should have had a modernisation (thermal battery and fuel). If this is the case their shell life will be exhausted in 2022-2027 or 2027-2032 at most. Some of them have been used in operations against pkk and pyd/ypg in ıraq and syria. And they can only be used by phantoms as far as I know.