TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,034
Reactions
113 14,738
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Tubitak-Sage is working on a family of air to air and ground to air missiles.
Also according to Mr Gurcan Okumus, Sage Director, a Ramjet powered a2a missile is not too far away.
A local Nasams and an ESSM-er version of g40 missile with extended range is in the cards.
May be even a local RAM derivative from Goktug family as well.
An interesting article!
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,592
Reactions
4 3,848
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Sungur is way better than Stinger or similar MANPADS apart from having an IIR seeker it has a continuous titanium rod warhead which is better at stopping threats compared to HE frag warheads so a Ram like a system is possible. A slightly scaled-up Sungur with a range of 10km will be a lot cheaper system with comparable performance especially if you take into account the Piri KATS system currently in use.


Sungur has a range of 10 km?
 

Kartal1

Experienced member
Lead Moderator
Messages
4,408
Reactions
81 16,509
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
Tubitak-Sage is working on a family of air to air and ground to air missiles.
Also according to Mr Gurcan Okumus, Sage Director, a Ramjet powered a2a missile is not too far away.
A local Nasams and an ESSM-er version of g40 missile with extended range is in the cards.
May be even a local RAM derivative from Goktug family as well.
An interesting article!
Yep! Very interesting article. It is stated that SAGE is also working on a bigger motor for Gokdogan which is aiming at developing the missile to AMRAAM-ER level. It is also stated that they are actively working over cold launch technology and also similar direction control system like that in Aster's PIF PAF.
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
3,814
Solutions
1
Reactions
27 13,694
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Some random rants:

ESSM-> Semi active missile, mostly comes out from common missile magazine, ship radar has to illuminate the target.
RAM-> Missile has sensors, separate magazine, separate sensors

In missile exchange

- if your VLS magazine is hit
- if your radar malfunctions
- if EW is applied
- if target has low RCS
- if enemy deploys false targets to deplete your ESSM battery


You lose CIWS capability (not counting on Phalanx/Gökdeniz... they all have dead sectors and can't engage multiple same time of arrival, smart pop-up missiles, they won't stop fast missiles like Brahmos, the debris will hit the ship).....

For CIWS scenarios, even if ESSM performs %60 and RAM+ESSM performs %70 it is going to make a difference, so much that your enemy might base his decisions to attack or disengage based on those probabilities (they know about our ships and they will calculate and allocate resources, we will do the same).

Has the Turkish Navy ever conducted a drill using 5-10 real anti-ship missiles and tried to measure ESSM/RAM/Phalanx/Gökdeniz/SeaZenith performance against saturation attacks?

Probably not.... probably many navies did not even try (except Australians tried some scenarios which was not a saturation drill). US is US and Turkish Navy is different, but which one has the complete layered defence (E-2 Hawkeye, satellite sensors, underwater sensors, AAW frigates, interceptor aircraft, group of ships, tomahawk missiles) and can choose not to install a perfect CIWS system and get away with it?

Current capabilities of our navy which needs to improve):

- AWACS-> relies on airforce
- Satellite sensors, limited coverage, not sure realtime networked data is available to navy
- AAW frigates-> SM-1 & Smart
- underwaters sensors, if any probably local and not global coverage like US SOSUS
- interceptor aircraft, relies on airforce
- group of ships, nothing spectacular
- long range anti-ship missiles, no (200 km is not long range to deter serious navies)

Many capabilities are getting better, but there is a long long way to go....


I'd like to see those:

- Aselsan should make an aircraft mounted version of EIRS radar
- We should put tens of satellites into low earth orbit, for networking and for remote sensing
- TF2000 and smaller versions having scaled down systems should form a network, smaller vessels like OPVs and FACs should join too with their sensors and weapons
- For navy we need equivalent of SM2/3/6, ESSM with Gökdoğan sensor, Siper, specialised missiles against antiship missiles etc.
- Towed arrays, passive sensors in nearby seas
- Navy should start to fly fighter aircraft, even from land initially
- We should make ship building cheaper and use all our shipbuillding capacity i.e. instead of waiting I class for 3-4 years, we should concurrently produce 3-4 in different shipyards
- Gezgin in the antiship mode


We should direct serious money and research time into CIWS/point defence as it can make a big difference in battle, along with long range weapons and a robust network oriented, scalable battle management system for any size of ships, maybe extending this to coastal installations and other domains...
RAM is offered to Navy on top of I class they rejected it stating that the vessel already has VLS system and ESSM/ESSM2(Navy wanted to use a combination of ESSM and ESSM2 on the i class before the US embargo) at the end of the design phase. They wanted phalanx as a CIWS. After the US embargo on the phalanx system, navy wanted Gokdeniz again no RAM(even though RAM is available and it is not embargoed)

Navy rejected what if designs of TF-2000 with RAM. Outright rejected. RAM and VLS together are redundant unless RAM becomes a lot cheaper.
Latest design of TF-2000. You are wrong and i have info on this one.

 

dustdevil

Committed member
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
271
Reactions
669
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
RAM is offered to Navy on top of I class they rejected it stating that the vessel already has VLS system and ESSM/ESSM2(Navy wanted to use a combination of ESSM and ESSM2 on the i class before the US embargo) at the end of the design phase. They wanted phalanx as a CIWS. After the US embargo on the phalanx system, navy wanted Gokdeniz again no RAM(even though RAM is available and it is not embargoed)

Navy rejected what if designs of TF-2000 with RAM. Outright rejected. RAM and VLS together are redundant unless RAM becomes a lot cheaper.
Latest design of TF-2000. You are wrong and i have info on this one.

I never said Turkish Navy wanted RAM, maybe you are replying to the wrong person.

Btw, I often don't agree or like the weapon choices of our armed forces. I'm just an amateur, but what they do is not law either.
 

dustdevil

Committed member
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
271
Reactions
669
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Probably 140Kg information is for Gökdoğan but they somehow managed to give false information to reporters. Same shape and size with AIM-9X, it can't be that heavy.
AIM-9x is 127mm. Bozdoğan is 160mm...but it is still heavy compared to other 160mm AA missiles..
 
E

Era_shield

Guest
Looking at the telemetry, it seems every point in the diagonal represents 5km distance - which when compared to the radius around the F-16 is about 25km - taking into account max range of the missile is to be at 25km. When we apply the distance to the cone which starts to encapsulate the target drone at around 40km. Does this mean the tiny seeker on Bozdogan can track a small drone like Simsek at around 40km ? Also, it could be they chose this engagement angle with the sun in the backdrop to further test the seeker?
View attachment 18567
Bro I just looked at the higher quality stream and realised the "IR sensor" view is edited. You can notice artifacts in the edges, the artifacting area is updating much faster than the supposed video feed, but here's the kicker:
1618914265861.png

For 1 frame, the person manually editing the video misaligned the edited view on top of the real view, lol. So for sure the IR sensor view is censored. They at least reduced the frame rate and probably added a bunch of blur, who knows what else. Maybe that's where the mystery haze comes from. The last 2 frames are also digitally zoomed, making it look like the missile has approached the target. Sage-Tubitak really don't want anyone to know what this bad boy is capable of 😄
 

Combat-Master

Baklava Consumer
Moderator
Messages
3,667
Reactions
15 25,473
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Bro I just looked at the higher quality stream and realised the "IR sensor" view is edited. You can notice artifacts in the edges, the artifacting area is updating much faster than the supposed video feed, but here's the kicker:
View attachment 18655
For 1 frame, the person manually editing the video misaligned the edited view on top of the real view, lol. So for sure the IR sensor view is censored. They at least reduced the frame rate and probably added a bunch of blur, who knows what else. Maybe that's where the mystery haze comes from. The last 2 frames are also digitally zoomed, making it look like the missile has approached the target. Sage-Tubitak really don't want anyone to know what this bad boy is capable of 😄

Good catch bro! @sage trolling us. :-(
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,784
Reactions
18 19,918
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
Bro I just looked at the higher quality stream and realised the "IR sensor" view is edited. You can notice artifacts in the edges, the artifacting area is updating much faster than the supposed video feed, but here's the kicker:
View attachment 18655
For 1 frame, the person manually editing the video misaligned the edited view on top of the real view, lol. So for sure the IR sensor view is censored. They at least reduced the frame rate and probably added a bunch of blur, who knows what else. Maybe that's where the mystery haze comes from. The last 2 frames are also digitally zoomed, making it look like the missile has approached the target. Sage-Tubitak really don't want anyone to know what this bad boy is capable of 😄

Bingo ;)
 
T

Turko

Guest
Similar to a recoiless rifle from the 1940s, did they copy it and why?

View attachment 18789

Exact same weight as well?

20.1 kg
Because of the as same reason as Soviet SPG-9s are still operational.
İt's heavier and more solid as it gives more velocity.

Nonetheless Carl Gustaf replica 84mm would suit Turkish Army.
I'd prefer Carl Gustaf Rather than rpg-7 because it is more accurate.
1619039606380.png

There are various of 84mm ammunitions. Delayed, impact, AP...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom