India Missiles and Guided Munitions

[Kedikesenfare]

After the Ukrainian fiasco, governments all around the world are probably scared that the Russian jets are simply junk...

 

[Zapper]

MSN

NEW DELHI: The IAF is going to arm more Sukhoi-30MKI jets with the precision-strike BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, whose range has been extended from 290 to 450-km, even as a blueprint is also being drawn to indigenously upgrade all the 260 such Russian-origin fighters in the combat fleet.

Impressed with the first test of 450-km BrahMos from a Sukhoi-30MKI jet in the Bay of Bengal in May, IAF plans to send another 20-25 jets for the structural, electrical, mechanical and software modifications required to carry the 2.5-tonne missile to defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL).

"These Sukhois will be in addition to the original 40 jets earmarked for BrahMos missiles. Thirty-five of the first 40 Sukhois with the 290-km BrahMos have been delivered back to IAF by HAL," a source said.

IAF considers the combination of Sukhois, which have a combat radius of almost 1,500-km without mid-air refueling, and the 450-km range conventional (non-nuclear) BrahMos missiles to be a deadly weapons package with strategic reach.

These air-to-ground BrahMos missiles can carry out pinpoint strikes on high-value military targets, underground nuclear bunkers, command-and-control centres on land or aircraft carriers and other warships on the high seas.

With the Army, Navy and IAF inking contracts worth around Rs 38,000 crore over the years for BrahMos missiles, which fly almost three times the speed of sound at Mach 2.8, a 800-km missile variant is also in the works, as was first reported by TOI.

The 272 twin-seat Sukhois (10 have crashed), with the bulk of them being licensed produced by HAL at an overall cost upwards of $12 billion from Russia, constitute the backbone of the existing IAF combat fleet.

Technical parameters for the major Sukhoi upgrade are now being refined. "We have decided this upgrade will be done indigenously with a plethora of indigenously-designed weapons, electronic warfare systems and the like. We are looking at upgrading 84 Sukhois in the first tranche," IAF chief Air Chief Marshal V R Chaudhari said.

The design and development phase will take four to five years, following which the actual major upgrade will kick off. The "spiral upgrade" of Sukhois with new weapons and sensors, in any case, has been underway for the last 10 years. "BrahMos and Astra air-to-air missiles, for instance, have been added to Sukhois indigenously," IAF vice chief Air Marshal Sandeep Singh said.

The Sukhois will also be armed with the `Rudram’ new generation anti-radiation missiles (NGARMs), which are designed to destroy a variety of enemy surveillance, communication and radar targets on the ground from stand-off distances. After Rudram-1 with a strike range of 150-km, the DRDO is also developing Rudram-2 (350-km range) and Rudram-3 (550-km) air-to-ground missiles.

The Sukhoi fleet upgrade becomes crucial since the IAF is currently grappling with just 31 fighter squadrons (16-18 jets in each) when the sanctioned strength is 42 to deter China and Pakistan.

Any idea how these structural changes would impact the actual performance of the jet? While the under development Brahmos-mini will be integrated into all fighter jets in IAF's fleet with the need for structural modifications, IAF wants to modify the MKIs to carry larger payloads of full sized Brahmos

If there is impact on their performance or IR signature with these modifications, it'll further detriment their capabilities when we already have a depleting fleet strength

 

[Nilgiri]

After the Ukrainian fiasco, governments all around the world are probably scared that the Russian jets are simply junk...

We know where they stand after doing extensive sustained and deep training especially with the Singaporeans and Israelis and number of western AF's .

How Russia uses theirs is their own problem.

 

[Zapper]

After the Ukrainian fiasco, governments all around the world are probably scared that the Russian jets are simply junk...

Haven't been following the Ukraine conflict lately but did Russia deploy Su-35s? Atleast at the beginning of the war, it was mostly the older Migs

 

[Nilgiri]

Any idea how these structural changes would impact the actual performance of the jet? While the under development Brahmos-mini will be integrated into all fighter jets in IAF's fleet with the need for structural modifications, IAF wants to modify the MKIs to carry larger payloads of full sized Brahmos

If there is impact on their performance or IR signature with these modifications, it'll further detriment their capabilities when we already have a depleting fleet strength

Depends what the IAF plans to do "all out" in a first phase of a conflict to achieve a result.

The internal wargaming and analysis matters. So in a multirole platform you will trade off some capability for another...depending on this.

 

[Zapper]

Depends what the IAF plans to do "all out" in a first phase of a conflict to achieve a result.

The internal wargaming and analysis matters. So in a multirole platform you will trade off some capability for another...depending on this.

That strategy isn't feasible in a prolonged conflict and if we don't have the element of surprise given MKI's already large IR signature, it's crucial to overcome our adversary's ADs, AWACS and other jamming systems. The primary modification for the MKI to carry these full sized Brahmos is strengthening the center pylon which imo is a possibility to blow up it's signature on enemy radars

When a country on the brink of economic default has more AWACS than us, that's definitely something to think about...Russian origin fighters aren't best know to counter EW systems

 

[Nilgiri]

That strategy isn't feasible in a prolonged conflict and if we don't have the element of surprise given MKI's already large IR signature, it's crucial to overcome our adversary's ADs, AWACS and other jamming systems. The primary modification for the MKI to carry these full sized Brahmos is strengthening the center pylon which imo is a possibility to blow up it's signature on enemy radars

When a country on the brink of economic default has more AWACS than us, that's definitely something to think about...Russian origin fighters aren't best know to counter EW systems

I doubt the AF will be in the first wave of brahmos attacks (those will be G2G brahmos)....this is for follow up of what remains, it is better to have that aerial vector option in subsequent waves rather than not have it....to destroy on the ground as much infrastructure and assets as possible, coordinated with all the intel feed (including from remote sensing) at hand.

Neither is this only Pakistan oriented as you have to come up with some plan to have (again follow up) options to take advantage of low number (and thus high reliance on for PLAAF) of airbases in Tibet as well (in again a wargamed layered attack) rather than have to deal with what they contain once the hornet nests are disturbed...which is very suboptimal given IAF squadron strength esp in A2A.

India simply (due to how things have gone suboptimally in the last 30 years or so) has to go brahmos heavy for this decade for DEAD and critical infra targetting...till other things catch up production wise to provide a larger buffet of options.

 

[Gary]

I heard the flanker has fall out of favor from IAF ? @Nilgiri

 

[Zapper]

I doubt the AF will be in the first wave of brahmos attacks (those will be G2G brahmos)....this is for follow up of what remains, it is better to have that aerial vector option in subsequent waves rather than not have it....to destroy on the ground as much infrastructure and assets as possible, coordinated with all the intel feed (including from remote sensing) at hand.

Neither is this only Pakistan oriented as you have to come up with some plan to have (again follow up) options to take advantage of low number (and thus high reliance on for PLAAF) of airbases in Tibet as well (in again a wargamed layered attack) rather than have to deal with what they contain once the hornet nests are disturbed...which is very suboptimal given IAF squadron strength esp in A2A.

India simply (due to how things have gone suboptimally in the last 30 years or so) has to go brahmos heavy for this decade for DEAD and critical infra targetting...till other things catch up production wise to provide a larger buffet of options.

Tbh, we're extremely bad at cross-functional coordination between IA, IAF and IN...like why the heck would IAF want control over attack helos like LCH and Apache wherein they should be handled by IA's aviation corps to support their mechanized columns and same applies between IA and IAF launching their respective Brahmos - I'm sure IAF would screw up. G2G Brahmos is effective on our western front but not with China. Current versions are anywhere around 600km range with the upcoming ones being 800-1000km which aren't sufficient to target china's population centers which is where Air launched versions come into play

IAF seriously got it's priorities wrong wherein they should've prioritized the Super Sukhoi upgrade by integrating an AESA radar, improved avionics and EW suite, Electronic counter-measures and jammers

 

[Zapper]

I heard the flanker has fall out of favor from IAF ? @Nilgiri

IAF's top brass favors the company/country who offers em the most kickbacks. MKI is still IAF's frontline fighter and if the Super Sukhoi project materializes, it'll be on par with Su-35. Russia being an unreliable supplier resulted in IAF & DRDO to reconsider modifying the Super Sukhoi program by upgrading the fighters with indigenous sub-systems (developed for LCA, TEDBF, AMCA projects) instead. 272 MKIs have been built by HAL with 11 crashes since their induction in 2000. 12 additional jets have been ordered earlier this year to replace those lost in crashes but that order has been cancelled due to Russia's inability to supply parts/spares and of course payment transfers...It's unlikely to see these go up in numbers

Rafales are IAF's new BAE but with GoI's efforts to induct indigenous platforms, the LCA-Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2 are the only inductions we'd see in the near future

 

[Nilgiri]

Tbh, we're extremely bad at cross-functional coordination between IA, IAF and IN...like why the heck would IAF want control over attack helos like LCH and Apache wherein they should be handled by IA's aviation corps to support their mechanized columns and same applies between IA and IAF launching their respective Brahmos - I'm sure IAF would screw up. G2G Brahmos is effective on our western front but not with China. Current versions are anywhere around 600km range with the upcoming ones being 800-1000km which aren't sufficient to target china's population centers which is where Air launched versions come into play

IAF seriously got it's priorities wrong wherein they should've prioritized the Super Sukhoi upgrade by integrating an AESA radar, improved avionics and EW suite, Electronic counter-measures and jammers

It's just another 25 jets in addition to the 40 already earmarked for conversion for handling the brahmos. So about 3 squadrons in total.

So large majority (10 squadrons or so) will remain air-dominance mainly, hopefully with sound focus on what you mention regarding this "super sukhoi" indigenous upgrading...especially to have the downtimes for these upgrades as short as possible. It is the declining squadron strength I feel that has caused these delays given greater need for the sukhois to be available.

Past a point we are just going to be grasping at straws trying to deconstruct what the exact IAF doctrine (ratio between A2A and A2G needed) is regarding opening tactics and strategies....the wargaming is privy to them, they obviously feel having 65 sukhois being able to handle brahmos is better than having 40....and I feel this is clear 2nd and 3rd wave sustainment oriented mostly.

Way I see it regarding the LCH for IAF, that is for independent use outside of armoured column formations (e.g. how apaches were used against critical early warning sites in the opening stage of GW1). If Indian Army acquires enough sensoring + CnC for those missions like US army has, then it would make sense to have them all unified under Indian army control for sure (and I have always backed this approach).
But that is not the case, the budgets are limited....so some executive decision has been made I feel to have these mission sets be handled by the airforce given what has been alloted there that can be leveraged upon.

I wouldn't even consider population centres to be a mission for brahmos missiles against China. Simply need to have an attack plan against the few critical airbases in tibet (that handle the most amount of PLAAF) and make use of that advantage in that Tibet is simply a hostile place for dense connected and hedged infra....and do the most possible to making China's logistic and basing problem there even worse relative to what India can do in its lowlands nearby in comparison.

 

[Nilgiri]

I heard the flanker has fall out of favor from IAF ? @Nilgiri

Whatever some of the top brass (under the impression that money grows on trees and time is an infinite resource) think is irrelevant.

When a plane is new they are all over it as best thing since sliced bread....then they gain appreciation of the problems and issues with time and want the next shiny new thing thats better.

But in reality the numbers (and dominance of the platform in IA orbat) are baked in for quite a long while to come and budgets and production runs (of new a/c) are stretched as it is.

Simply have to make use of them in most optimal way possible.

 

[Paro]

Your looking in the wrong direction. These wont be used in either Pakistan or china ( maybe only one time surprise attack on the farthest connecting node)

You dont waste brahmos and risk a jet to take out a small building or 100m target its just not economical. You dont have any economic target either in tibet like a refinary or likewise which will anyway require far more in numbers. You have saaw and that new anti radiation rudram missile to cause far more effective bomb runs

These are to dominate IOR. With bases in Andaman and scehelles you can cover 2000km in all directions. P8is and future reapers on patrol detect vessel’s calling in a pair of these to take a shot. Even the sensors on these are are equipped for navel variant.

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578368702688677891

 

[Hari Sud]

There is a need to build a hypersonic missile based on highly accurate Brahmos missile. The US congressional submission by a top US commander a year back said that India is three years away from hypersonic missile development. I hope he is right. We need this critical demonstrator to let all Chinese, US and Pakistanis know that we are making progress.

 

[Baryshx]

There is a need to build a hypersonic missile based on highly accurate Brahmos missile. The US congressional submission by a top US commander a year back said that India is three years away from hypersonic missile development. I hope he is right. We need this critical demonstrator to let all Chinese, US and Pakistanis know that we are making progress.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia or China helps Pakistan with this soon, because the kind of place the world is. The closer you get to America, the closer others will get to others.

 

[Hari Sud]

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia or China helps Pakistan with this soon, because the kind of place the world is. The closer you get to America, the closer others will get to others.

‘Wrong conclusion….. Pakistan has moved back into US orbit and India has moved away. This will last another 5 to 10 years. Pakistan is not technically competent enough to absorb technology including hypersonic technology with very poor technical base. They need everything ready made and then they can paint it with their own Color’s and call it their own.

 

[Zapper]

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia or China helps Pakistan with this soon, because the kind of place the world is. The closer you get to America, the closer others will get to others.

pakistan has always been US's lap dog despite the influence and clout China bought with it's CPEC and other investments. It is pretty evident even among pakistanis that the current political scenario or regime change is influenced by US's interests.

As for hypersonic tech, it's still at a very nascent stage with the US itself having multiple failed tests. China said it tested and exhibited few models like the DF-17 during parades but there's no real evidence of them perfecting it nor showcasing an operational version. I'd say Russia is relatively ahead on this front.

Secondly, China just wouldn't handout such critical tech to an almost bankrupt country like pakistan...let alone Russia. As @Hari Sud pointed out, pak doesn't have the technical capability to absorb such tech nor is pak a reliable partner. Most of Chinese weapons systems in pakistan's arsenal are manufactured in China end-to-end. Majority of JF-17's components including the entire fuselage, wings, tail etc are all produced in China and exported as shippable kits for pakistan to assemble. Our Su-30MKI probably has more Indian content

 

[Afif]

pakistan has always been US's lap dog despite the influence and clout China bought with it's CPEC and other investments. It is pretty evident even among pakistanis that the current political scenario or regime change is influenced by US's interests.

As for hypersonic tech, it's still at a very nascent stage with the US itself having multiple failed tests. China said it tested and exhibited few models like the DF-17 during parades but there's no real evidence of them perfecting it nor showcasing an operational version. I'd say Russia is relatively ahead on this front.

Secondly, China just wouldn't handout such critical tech to an almost bankrupt country like pakistan...let alone Russia. As @Hari Sud pointed out, pak doesn't have the technical capability to absorb such tech nor is pak a reliable partner. Most of Chinese weapons systems in pakistan's arsenal are manufactured in China end-to-end. Majority of JF-17's components including the entire fuselage, wings, tail etc are all produced in China and exported as shippable kits for pakistan to assemble. Our Su-30MKI probably has more Indian content

As far as i know around 60 percent of j17 block 1 and 2 is manufactured in pakistan.
And if I remamber correctly They did export it few years ago to myanmar.

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I won't be so skeptical about chinese pakistan cooperation. I mean there has been rumors that chinese even shared the nuclear warhead design with pakistan. So I wouldn't count anything out.
And also, for china it seems that, it doesn't matter if pakistan goes bankrupt or not they keep investing strategically in that country.

And for chinese hypersonic capability itself, it seems that, indians don't want to believe china have operational hypersonic capability.
Which is funny because, in 2022 the pentagon and most of the us security think tanks seems to think that df17 is already operational in initial numbers and pose a credible threat.

 

[Zapper]

As far as i know around 60 percent of j17 block 1 and 2 is manufactured in pakistan.
And if I remamber correctly They did export it few years ago to myanmar.

CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I won't be so skeptical about chinese pakistan cooperation. I mean there has been rumors that chinese even shared the nuclear warhead design with pakistan. So I wouldn't count anything out.
And also, for china it seems that, it doesn't matter if pakistan goes bankrupt or not they keep investing strategically in that country.

And for chinese hypersonic capability itself, it seems that, indians don't want to believe china have operational hypersonic capability.
Which is funny because, in 2022 the pentagon and most of the us security think tanks seems to think that df17 is already operational in initial numbers and pose a credible threat.

Seems like you've spent way too much time on the green forum and your source is wiki!! Assembling an AC doesn't equate to manufacturing

The entirety of design, development and flight testing of J-17 (all blocks) are done in China. I doubt if pak even has access to the source codes

View attachment 48658

This is how PAC -Kamra receives their kits - similar to CKD kits for automobiles which are then loaded onto their respective jigs to be assembled/integrated with the necessary sub-systems received as part of these kits

View attachment 48659
View attachment 48660

The JF has been exported to Myanmar and Nigeria - both these countries were looking for an affordable fighter jet and China has significant clout and presence in these countries. It's a no brainer their influence worked and I can only pity your ignorance if you actually think these exports were due to pakistan's lobbying

I won't be so skeptical about chinese pakistan cooperation. I mean there has been rumors that chinese even shared the nuclear warhead design with pakistan. So I wouldn't count anything out.
And also, for china it seems that, it doesn't matter if pakistan goes bankrupt or not they keep investing strategically in that country.

The way pak obtained their nuclear capabilities has dubious claims with both NK and China having some role to play. I agree China will continue to support pak to keep India at bay but not to the point where they share their most critical/advanced tech. They might definitely offer the platform but not ToT as evident from the recent inductions of chinese platforms into pak's arsenal

And for chinese hypersonic capability itself, it seems that, indians don't want to believe china have operational hypersonic capability.
Which is funny because, in 2022 the pentagon and most of the us security think tanks seems to think that df17 is already operational in initial numbers and pose a credible threat.

Most of China's tech is reverse engineered or bought from Russian systems including their missile tech. After the fall of Soviet Union, while our dumb top brass was buying Russian weaponary, China was smart enough to hire Russian engineers & scientists. There is a reason why China is still struggling to develop an engine or the purchase of Su-35s despite J-20 being at an advanced stage. China's hypersonic missiles can be expected to achieve full operational capabilities only after Russia