TR Naval Programs

[B.t.N]

Parliamentary questions​	​ 41k 10k
21 October 2020​	​ P-005722/2020
Priority question for written answer P-005722/2020 to the Council Rule 138 Emmanouil Fragkos (ECR)​	​ Answer in writing
Subject: Supply of German submarines to Turkey​

“The failure of the UN, the EU and NATO to uphold international law effectively, leaving the strongest to prevail, has been evidenced by the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh, the violent secession of Kosovo from Serbia, the continuing occupation of Cyprus, the reversal of fortunes in the Libyan war and the de facto dominance of Turkey in northern Syria and Iraq. The escalation of Turkish aggression is not being prevented by those theoretically responsible for safeguarding the rule of law. It is instead being contained only by meeting force with force as a deterrent, for example in the Aegean, where the balance is being maintained by superior Greek underwater defences and its mastery of the skies. It would of course take more than a European Council balancing act to prevent arms supplies effectively tipping the scales in Turkey’s favour and concrete preventive measures will be needed to counter its constant gung ho revisionism. In response to numerous confirmed reports of Turkish aggression, the US has cancelled a delivery of F35 combat aircraft and Canada has announced an arms embargo…” ​ “Despite this, Germany is still planning to provide it with six state-of-the-art submarines. Does the Council intend to prevent this by invoking the fourth recital of Council Common Position 2008/944/CFSP to the effect that Member States are determined to prevent the export of military technology and equipment which might be used for international aggression or contribute to regional instability?” No further steps beyond, no mention of an embargo on Turkish Navy!​

 

[Anmdt]

I could not really understand your comment. You are saying that the reason for delay is actually an embargo, and Covid is put forth as the excuse. International supply agreements rarely allow delays with no compensation, are you suggesting we have signed an amateurish agreement with Germany, and we are entitled to no compensation, none at all?

Everything is being done according to the agreement.
The contract was signed to be flexible in favor of TR, unlike Germany's earlier contracts this has given us a great oppurtunity to work on certain items as the contract stage of design is carried out.
This causes delays naturally, an item lets call it X, is made or assembled in TR, acceptance tests are made in TR, then shipped to Germany and integrated / assembled into the final form acceptance tests carried out for the final assembly, re-shipped back to TR, HAT / FAT carried out again.
This might give people an idea how complicated Reis project in fact. Not a simple licensed production but TR is trying to gain as much as ToT and know-how gain even if Germans are not pleasant.
And plus, anyone who worked with Germans or German companies might have some idea how sluggish they might be when it comes to the procedures, combine this with covid you end up with delays caused by;
- Know-how gain adventures, maximizing local contribution, we did literally said to Germans ' let us see if we can make this item on our own, if not we are getting it from you or your suppliers ', an open check.
- Covid, force majure even shipment of basic items are delayed and Germans have not flexed covid measures to please TR (they could, however, done for someone else)
- Procedure love and fetish of Germans, acceptance tests take longer, even they repeat acceptance tests for parts delivered from TR.
- Diplomacy fail, TR could solve some issues to accelerate the project by months yet managed to mess certain things diplomatically, entirely regardless of the government change and embargo desire of the other EU members.

Awesome, @Anmdt to the rescue!

How???? @Anmdt

Tried to explain as much as i could.

 

[B.t.N]

Everything is being done according to the agreement.
The contract was signed to be flexible in favor of TR, unlike Germany's earlier contracts this has given us a great oppurtunity to work on certain items as the contract stage of design is carried out.
This causes delays naturally, an item lets call it X, is made or assembled in TR, acceptance tests are made in TR, then shipped to Germany and integrated / assembled into the final form acceptance tests carried out for the final assembly, re-shipped back to TR, HAT / FAT carried out again.
This might give people an idea how complicated Reis project in fact. Not a simple licensed production but TR is trying to gain as much as ToT and know-how gain even if Germans are not pleasant.
And plus, anyone who worked with Germans or German companies might have some idea how sluggish they might be when it comes to the procedures, combine this with covid you end up with delays caused by;
- Know-how gain adventures, maximizing local contribution, we did literally said to Germans ' let us see if we can make this item on our own, if not we are getting it from you or your suppliers ', an open check.
- Covid, force majure even shipment of basic items are delayed and Germans have not flexed covid measures to please TR (they could, however, done for someone else)
- Procedure love and fetish of Germans, acceptance tests take longer, even they repeat acceptance tests for parts delivered from TR.
- Diplomacy fail, TR could solve some issues to accelerate the project by months yet managed to mess certain things diplomatically, entirely regardless of the government change and embargo desire of the other EU members.



Tried to explain as much as i could.

Kudos for an explanation that really MAKES SENSE! No wonder why @Manomed calls you to the rescue when in doubt!

 

[Pilatino]

Millions of Turks living in Germany with zero influence on them! Look at the a few number of Armenians in the US and think about the possibilities. Nothing but shame.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Millions of Turks living in Germany with zero influence on them! Look at the a few number of Armenians in the US and think about the possibilities. Nothing but shame.

Turks living in foreign countries are for the most part apolitical, that's why they don't have any leverage on say the US.

 

[Nutuk]

Turks living in foreign countries are for the most part apolitical, that's why they don't have any leverage on say the US.

On the contrary, as Muslim Turks are already regarded as a "danger" and as Turk you cannot get far in politics.

Just years ago in the Netherland two Turkish Dutch politicians refused to recognize the Armenian genocide view of their party and they were kicked out of the party. These two politicians started their own movement called "Denk" party. As you can guess the party is more treated like a pariah than a Dutch party.

We in Turkey think we are nationalistic, but we are just nationalistic in words not deeds!

 

[what]

Millions of Turks living in Germany with zero influence on them! Look at the a few number of Armenians in the US and think about the possibilities. Nothing but shame.

You think Germany has been so soft on Erdogan and blocking sanctions against Turkey in the EU just for fun?

You can hate on Germany as much as you want, but Germany has always been supportive of Turkey. Olaf Scholz the new chancellor, probably even more so than Merkel.

 

[TheInsider]

Covid is a "force majoure" Germans are pushing it forward to stall the delivery of the submarines and not to be sued back by TR. Even Erdo and defense minister Akar pointed out the games played behind the curtain in the past. Nobody in Turkish admin buys the covid excuse. It is surprising to me as I thought Germans will not be stubborn not to make things worse. The recent delays have nothing to do with ToT, contract, Turkish subsystems, or excessive regulations and tests. U-214TN project has already seen massive delays due to those. After those delays, Turkish subsystems are delivered ahead of the schedule most of the time. For example, the combat management system of the last submarine is in delivery at the moment. Make no mistakes this is a stalling tactic. Germans are using this as a way to unofficially embargo Turkiye without getting in trouble. It started(for the submarine project) when the Merkel era ended and the new pro-US government of Germany took over the office. The aim is probably to prevent the delivery of the first submarine before the Turkish elections and push that issue to the new government.

 

[TheInsider]

BTW the president won't say we will look for other alternatives if you take it easy just for "technical" or "covid based" delays.

"Almanya işi biraz gevşekten alıyor. Almanya eğer bu işte bize verdiği sözü yerine getirmezse yapacağımız iş, alternatifleri bulmaktır. Alternatifler tükenmez"

Başkan Erdoğan'dan Almanya'ya sitem: İşi biraz gevşekten alıyorlar

Başkan Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Rusya Devlet Başkanı Vladimir Putin ile yaptığı görüşmenin ardından Türkiye dönüşü basın mensuplarının sorularını yanıtladı. Erdoğan, Rus savaş uçakları ve denizaltılarına ilişkin konuştu.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

 

[Oublious]

BTW the president won't say we will look for other alternatives if you take it easy just for "technical" or "covid based" delays.

Başkan Erdoğan'dan Almanya'ya sitem: İşi biraz gevşekten alıyorlar

Başkan Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Rusya Devlet Başkanı Vladimir Putin ile yaptığı görüşmenin ardından Türkiye dönüşü basın mensuplarının sorularını yanıtladı. Erdoğan, Rus savaş uçakları ve denizaltılarına ilişkin konuştu.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

The first sub to? It is sailing ,i could understand the rest of the subs but the first sub.

 

[guest12]

Millions of Turks living in Germany with zero influence on them! Look at the a few number of Armenians in the US and think about the possibilities. Nothing but shame.

Lobby groups are not created because of minority people's capabilities but said country wants to target third nation out there.Lobby groups simply weapon platforms created for international relationships usage.

Last month an American Turk called Dr. Oz forced to abandon his Turkish citizenship to became an U.S. Senator.While U.S. Senate full of double passport holders with a certain country near us.

There are Greek/Jewish/Armenian and Kurdish lobbies in U.S. and they are powerful enough to sanction Turkey yet there is no Chinese / Russian / Turkish lobby powerful enough to archive same feat.

 

[Lool]

The aim is probably to prevent the delivery of the first submarine before the Turkish elections and push that issue to the new government.

Sorry but I didnt quite get it
What do the Germans want form a new govt? To stop the submarine project or to stop the ToT and nationalisation aspect of the project?

I still dont understand what do you mean by "push the issue to a new govt"

 

[Zafer]

Millions of Turks living in Germany with zero influence on them! Look at the a few number of Armenians in the US and think about the possibilities. Nothing but shame.

That's because Armenians are being used for the purposes of their capital holder masters.
You can tell it from the dissident Turkish citizens being used by Europeans against Türkiye.
When they are instrumental they get used.

 

[TheInsider]

Sorry but I didnt quite get it
What do the Germans want form a new govt? To stop the submarine project or to stop the ToT and nationalisation aspect of the project?

I still dont understand what do you mean by "push the issue to a new govt"

It is too late for both of those. We got what we wanted from that project. We got ToT and we can complete those subs on our own albeit with delays.

The new German government really hates Turkiye. There are openly hostile figures like Cem Özdemir in the German government. They won't miss any opportunity to cause Turkiye harm. Germany already has a weapon embargo on land and air systems before the new government. Naval systems were an exception.

The first sub was really in a good situation. The German government has to deliberately stop something to cause such a big delay in the delivery of the first sub.

 

[Bogeyman]

The critical design of the Offshore Patrol Ships has been completed and mass production has begun.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512353322174500867

 

[Combat-Master]

The critical design of the Offshore Patrol Ships has been completed and mass production has begun.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512353322174500867

Eyyy, wait hold up.. Is that a hint of Atmaca and Hisar ?

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

The ship in the drawing has some differences from the model exhibited at IDEF 2021, like the mast behind the Gökdeniz. There have been minor revisions in the design, but the Hisar and Atmaca tubes are the same.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512368675889856517

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512368675889856517

Add English explanation please!

 

[Yasar_TR]

German AIP system is good and TN had made the right choice at the time. Whilst it is a good system, the speed at which the submarine can travel submerged under AIP is very low and does not give the Sub-Commander flexibility of a faster moving vessel. Added to this, Germany’s, what I would call hostile manner towards us, and the need for these subs to go to Germany at regular intervals for their AIP systems to be maintained, may be we should be looking at alternatives.
Looking at the advances made in Li-Ion battery technologies and what the Japanese are accomplishing with their latest 2 SÖRYU class submarines, may be Diesel + Li-Ion conversion of our Reis class - at least last 3 or 4 ships- , should be seriously considered.
JS Ōryū and JS Tōryū, do not have the Stirling AIP drive that the first 10 subs have. These are the first submarines in the world equipped with the lithium-ion batteries. Compared to conventional lead-acid batteries, they provide more than twice the energy density per weight volume and 1.5 times more times of repeated charging and discharging. As well as their charging time being shorter they do not suffer from hydrogen gas generation that plagues lead-acid batteries. So when in a tight spot and the sub has to get away quickly they can provide the power needed.
Time under water for them are still shorter than AIP versions. But the advantages may outweigh the longevity of submerged time.
Both S Korea and India are planning to go the Li-Ion route for their subs.

 

[Anmdt]

The critical design of the Offshore Patrol Ships has been completed and mass production has begun.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512353322174500867

We can safely expect some export deals for this design. It runs on Diesel - Diesel unlike Ada-Class and affordable. Note the incidents where Ada-Class was not chosen for not being adaptable to Diesel-Diesel.
The secondary mast which carries the TACAN (Tactical air-navigation system) can be easily reconfigured as ESM / COMINT / SIGINT antenna.
Yes it has TACAN even for the base configuration. That enables OPV to conduct helicopter / USV operations in adverse weather conditions or at night.
Main mast supports up to Cenk-S sized Aesa radar, EA / ED systems, PIRI-IRST.
Both AKR Block- A2 spots support AKREP Block-B2.

German AIP system is good and TN had made the right choice at the time. Whilst it is a good system, the speed at which the submarine can travel submerged under AIP is very low and does not give the Sub-Commander flexibility of a faster moving vessel. Added to this, Germany’s, what I would call hostile manner towards us, and the need for these subs to go to Germany at regular intervals for their AIP systems to be maintained, may be we should be looking at alternatives.
Looking at the advances made in Li-Ion battery technologies and what the Japanese are accomplishing with their latest 2 SÖRYU class submarines, may be Diesel + Li-Ion conversion of our Reis class - at least last 3 or 4 ships- , should be seriously considered.
JS Ōryū and JS Tōryū, do not have the Stirling AIP drive that the first 10 subs have. These are the first submarines in the world equipped with the lithium-ion batteries. Compared to conventional lead-acid batteries, they provide more than twice the energy density per weight volume and 1.5 times more times of repeated charging and discharging. As well as their charging time being shorter they do not suffer from hydrogen gas generation that plagues lead-acid batteries. So when in a tight position and the sub has to get away quickly they can provide the power needed.
Time under water for them are still shorter than AIP versions. But the advantages may outweigh the longevity of submerged time.
Both S Korea and India are planning to go the Li-Ion route for their subs.

If people spends sometime to think over embargo claims they would easily conclude the keypoint related to the AIP;

Germany is not bound to support MRO or Refueling station maintenance or technical support related to the AIP, according to the deal, they are only bound to supply AIP for all submarines of the class + refueling station. They can easily embargo the AIP by disabling MRO access and Technical support for refueling station beyond the warranty term, following delivering the subs and will render those submarines less effective than before technically converting Reis class to a Diesel-Electric submarine.

If Germany really desires to embargo this class of submarines, they would easily carry it out directly, without any breach in contract.

Regarding to the Li-Ion on submarines, we have to be quick to jump on the train before it departs. STM500 and other small submarine designs, UUVs, silent convertible - semi-submersible USVs become meaningful with Li-Ion applications. We have to launch certification and rules regarding to the Li-Ion use at sea considering the safety, storage, maintenance etc as soon as possible so that it will be possible to deploy them in 5 years.