TR Naval Programs

[Yasar_TR]

Russian Tu-22M3 Backfire Bombers Based In Syria Are Going To Patrol The Mediterranean

In a throwback to the days of the Cold War, the Russian swing-wing bombers will fly maritime missions in NATO’s “backyard.”

www.thedrive.com

Does anybody still think

- RAM is expensive/redundant?
- Sungur should be used for close in missile defense because Göktuğ is heavy?
- Phalanx/Gökdeniz is enough?
- 8-16 VLS cells are enough?

KH-32 “ship killer specific” missile, these birds carry, can be launched from 600km to 1000km away. So currently, there is no AD missile that can intercept the plane, that is launching it. The missile itself has a terminal speed of over 4.5 Mach.
Quote:

• Kh-32 flies to a target with a ceiling of about 40 kilometers, which is 7 km higher than the height of short range US missile defense system;
• The Kh-32 on the final stage attacks the target in a steep dive (breaking the missile defense against radars that do not include objects directly above themselves in their viewing angle);
• Multi-frequency radar in Kh-32 has better resistance to EW such as spot jamming

Unquote.
Hence conventional RAM, Sungur, Phalanx, Gokdeniz may not be the right AD systems to counteract these missiles. A RAM system with Bozdogan designed to stop ballistic missiles and Siper, G40 or even G40-ER , specifically designed for ballistic missile prevention may give some protection to the ship.
Definitely you will need a 64 cell VLS to counteract missiles like these, so that multiple launches per missile can be afforded to guarantee higher probability of hit and not get over saturated.
If a phalanx can hit one of these, coming vertically towards the ship, will only help increase the the level of damage to the ship. @ 1.5 km if Phalanx hits it the remaining parts of the missile travelling at 4.5 Mach will devastate the ship.

 

[Turko]

Russian Tu-22M3 Backfire Bombers Based In Syria Are Going To Patrol The Mediterranean

In a throwback to the days of the Cold War, the Russian swing-wing bombers will fly maritime missions in NATO’s “backyard.”

www.thedrive.com

Does anybody still think

- RAM is expensive/redundant?
- Sungur should be used for close in missile defense because Göktuğ is heavy?
- Phalanx/Gökdeniz is enough?
- 8-16 VLS cells are enough?

TU-22s and its missiles were produced against USN Carriers in ocean. I don't think those aircrafts are real threat for us.

 

[dustdevil]

TU-22s and its missiles were produced against USN Carriers in ocean. I don't think those aircrafts are real threat for us.

Well if things gets ugly someday I would not trust Russian gentlemanship for not launching those against us...

 

[Turko]

Well if things gets ugly someday I would not trust Russian gentlemanship for not launching those against us...

As i said those were produced for destroying aircraft carriers.

Our TurAF F16s could intercept TU-22 over Turkish airspace.

Regarding KH32 supersonic missiles which is bulky , i don't know what to say. Which Turkish Army would be targeted? Land based Turkish SAM systems could easily intercept them.
We don't have navy fleet in ocean.

Russians have also nuclear warheads so what?

 

[Anmdt]

TU-22s and its missiles were produced against USN Carriers in ocean. I don't think those aircrafts are real threat for us.

Well if things gets ugly someday I would not trust Russian gentlemanship for not launching those against us...

Think it this way: if this thing design to hunt a USN Aircraft Carrier in middle of a Carrier Strike Group, what could we really do to counter it?

However you know my stand on self-protection,all layers should be available on the strategic platforms beyond a size;

One of these combinations for the inner layers (Replace the trademarked items with equivalent solutions):

-RAM & Phalanx,
-Laser (when available) & RAM,
-Guided shell & RAM
-Guided Shell & Phalanx,

Both of these:
- Point-Defense via Quadpack, both MR (ESSM like) and Rapid response SR (CAMM like) missiles.
- if the platform has space, highly efficient MR - LR-AD missiles.

Essentially on all platforms (tactical / strategic):
- A scalable EW + Sensor suite
- A scalable self-defense management suite supported with a trained - smart AI to encounter saturation attacks and creating engagement plans in coordination with adjacent flotilla ships by categorizing the threat (a dedicated plan for hypersonic cruise missiles, while subsonic or C-RAM will have their own engagement plans).
- A library for possible threats

And small non strategic/tactical platforms should be equipped with dedicated AA missiles (Sungur+N + Göktuğ Naval derivatives) depending on the mission profile, whether it has meant to operate in hostile waters, coupled with central network or de-coupled / autonomous.

 

[dustdevil]

As i said those were produced for destroying aircraft carriers.

Our TurAF F16s could intercept TU-22 over Turkish airspace.

Regarding KH32 supersonic missiles which is bulky , i don't know what to say. Which Turkish Army would be targeted? Land based Turkish SAM systems could easily intercept them.
We don't have navy fleet in ocean.

Russians have also nuclear warheads so what?

Nuclear warheads are another thing but if you think the missile can not be used against a frigate in Mediterranean or Black Sea I have nothing else to say to convince you it’s a big threat.

 

[adenl]

Well if things gets ugly someday I would not trust Russian gentlemanship for not launching those against us...

Why? You don't trust piece of paper from 1936, backed by a hundred admirals? The Russians have behaved themselves quite nicely especially since 2014 and 2015. It is not like they've pincered Turkey with two A2/AD bubbles, in the north and south, capable of targeting all of Turkey's strategic sites.

Your worries are unwarranted.

 

[dustdevil]

Why? You don't trust piece of paper from 1936, backed by a hundred admirals? The Russians have behaved themselves quite nicely especially since 2014 and 2015. It is not like they've pincerend Turkey with two A2/AD bubbles, in the north and south, capable of targeting all of Turkey's strategic sites.

Your worries are unwarranted.

Yup

Guess I’ll go back to ULAQ videos firing Cirit (no offense, it’s a good start) and wait for the analysis of famous Greek TV guy and have a comfortable day.

 

[Turko]

Nuclear warheads are another thing but if you think the missile can not be used against a frigate in Mediterranean or Black Sea I have nothing else to say to convince you it’s a big threat.

Okay. Why TU22 and KH32 are bigger threats for us than other Vessels, aircrafts and AShMs? You claimed we needed all RAM, Göktüg, SAM etc due to Russian TU22 and KH32.
By the way KH32s have nuclear warheads in order to destroy a fleet.


We need and urge all point and areal air defence systems not because of TU22s . You mixed one mistake with one true.


We had better think about new modern russian antiship missiles and frigates .

 

[dustdevil]

Okay. Why TU22 and KH32 are bigger threats for us than other Vessels, aircrafts and AShMs? You claimed we needed all RAM, Göktüg, SAM etc due to Russian TU22 and KH32.
By the way KH32s have nuclear warheads in order to destroy a fleet.


We need and urge all point and areal air defence systems not because of TU22s . You mixed one mistake with one true.


We had better think about new modern russian antiship missiles and frigates .

Care to explain my mistake? Where did I say other threats are unimportant? Please quote directly from the forum. (I’m usually on the caution/high capability side for our Navy, a Navy that can bite super powers too, so it looks illogical for me to say something like that)

I never claimed Phalanx/ESSM combo is enough but there are people who think like that, the post was aimed for those people. Are you one of them?

 

[Turko]

Care to explain my mistake? Where did I say other threats are unimportant? Please quote directly from the forum.

I never claimed Phalanx/ESSM combo is enough but there are people who think like that, the post was aimed for those people. Are you one of them?

Sen Abdülhamid'i savundunNo offense bra.
İf you worry about Phalanx /ESSM then offer a better solution?
Nobody here is against RAMs on frigates and on corvettes.
There are limited spaces so that solutions should be wise.
You should check my avatar.

 

[dustdevil]

Sen Abdülhamid'i savundunNo offense bra.
İf you worry about Phalanx /ESSM then offer a better solution?
Nobody here is against RAMs on frigates and on corvettes.
There are limited spaces so that solutions should be wise.
You should check my avatar.

My previous post on the similar topic, without these Tu-22s on Syria, now the stakes are higher:

Some random rants:

ESSM-> Semi active missile, mostly comes out from common missile magazine, ship radar has to illuminate the target.
RAM-> Missile has sensors, separate magazine, separate sensors

In missile exchange

- if your VLS magazine is hit
- if your radar malfunctions
- if EW is applied
- if target has low RCS
- if enemy deploys false targets to deplete your ESSM battery


You lose CIWS capability (not counting on Phalanx/Gökdeniz... they all have dead sectors and can't engage multiple same time of arrival, smart pop-up missiles, they won't stop fast missiles like Brahmos, the debris will hit the ship).....

For CIWS scenarios, even if ESSM performs %60 and RAM+ESSM performs %70 it is going to make a difference, so much that your enemy might base his decisions to attack or disengage based on those probabilities (they know about our ships and they will calculate and allocate resources, we will do the same).

Has the Turkish Navy ever conducted a drill using 5-10 real anti-ship missiles and tried to measure ESSM/RAM/Phalanx/Gökdeniz/SeaZenith performance against saturation attacks?

Probably not.... probably many navies did not even try (except Australians tried some scenarios which was not a saturation drill). US is US and Turkish Navy is different, but which one has the complete layered defence (E-2 Hawkeye, satellite sensors, underwater sensors, AAW frigates, interceptor aircraft, group of ships, tomahawk missiles) and can choose not to install a perfect CIWS system and get away with it?

Current capabilities of our navy which needs to improve):

- AWACS-> relies on airforce
- Satellite sensors, limited coverage, not sure realtime networked data is available to navy
- AAW frigates-> SM-1 & Smart
- underwaters sensors, if any probably local and not global coverage like US SOSUS
- interceptor aircraft, relies on airforce
- group of ships, nothing spectacular
- long range anti-ship missiles, no (200 km is not long range to deter serious navies)

Many capabilities are getting better, but there is a long long way to go....


I'd like to see those:

- Aselsan should make an aircraft mounted version of EIRS radar
- We should put tens of satellites into low earth orbit, for networking and for remote sensing
- TF2000 and smaller versions having scaled down systems should form a network, smaller vessels like OPVs and FACs should join too with their sensors and weapons
- For navy we need equivalent of SM2/3/6, ESSM with Gökdoğan sensor, Siper, specialised missiles against antiship missiles etc.
- Towed arrays, passive sensors in nearby seas
- Navy should start to fly fighter aircraft, even from land initially
- We should make ship building cheaper and use all our shipbuillding capacity i.e. instead of waiting I class for 3-4 years, we should concurrently produce 3-4 in different shipyards
- Gezgin in the antiship mode


We should direct serious money and research time into CIWS/point defence as it can make a big difference in battle, along with long range weapons and a robust network oriented, scalable battle management system for any size of ships, maybe extending this to coastal installations and other domains...

 

[Turko]

Unfortunately if your main radar or VLS were hit , it would mean your warship destroyed.

For the beginning we urge G40s which have active radar seekers. G40s will provide great security .

 

[dustdevil]

Unfortunately if your main radar or VLS were hit , it would mean your warship destroyed.

For the beginning we urge G40s which have active radar seekers. G40s will provide great security .

Not necessarily, a separate magazine/sensor like RAM might save so many lives. Bigger missiles are a bigger problem but it would take 2-3 Atmaca/Harpoon class missiles to destroy a frigate, so not wise to put everything to the same VLS.

 

[Anmdt]

Not necessarily, a separate magazine/sensor like RAM might save so many lives. Bigger missiles are a bigger problem but it would take 2-3 Atmaca/Harpoon class missiles to destroy a frigate, so not wise to put everything to the same VLS.

RAM feeds from main search radar, you need stand-alone systems with their own emergency back-up like SeaRAM, Gökdeniz (optionally with a dedicated Mar-D like radar on a separate mast or mounted on Gökdeniz or whatever the CIWS system is) etc to get a self-defense going on.

That is why new concepts are emerging to have 2 separate main masts* each covering their half.
And each half of the ship can operate independently of the another needed.

Or integrated masts on supper-structure (like Zumwalt, Aegis) which provides sufficient redundancy with each side operating stand-alone when needed.

 

[Turko]

RAM feeds from main search radar, you need stand-alone systems with their own emergency back-up like SeaRAM, Gökdeniz (optionally with a dedicated Mar-D like radar on a separate mast or mounted on Gökdeniz or whatever the CIWS system is) etc to get a self-defense going on.

That is why new concepts are emerging to have 2 separate main masts* each covering their half.
And each half of the ship can operate independently of the another needed.

Or integrated masts on supper-structure (like Zumwalt, Aegis) which provides sufficient redundancy with each side operating stand-alone when needed.

But our I-Class frigate will have just one radar not two separated. I mean Gökdeniz /CIWS will relied on it.

 

[Anmdt]

But our I-Class frigate will have just one radar not two separated. I mean Gökdeniz /CIWS will relied on it.

gökdeniz will have its own search radar, either mounted or on a separate location.

 

[Turko]

gökdeniz will have its own search radar, either mounted or on a separate location.

Dear I can't see second search radar here do you mean AKR-D ?

 

[Anmdt]

View attachment 21746
Dear I can't see second search radar here do you mean AKR-D ?

Zoom in.. it has MAR-D on Gökdeniz as well in this configuration:

Zoom onto the rear side of secondary mast, Just behind of the mast you will see MAR-D waving

 

[Spook]

Could we see naval variant of Roketsan ALKA being integrated to ships for C-UAS threats? Terrorists are going to try attack ships as their long distance drone capabilities get better. Something small as ALKA would be very easy to integrate.