New law will let Police, MIT and the Turkish Armed Forces equipment to be transferred to each other easily in urgent need

Kartal1

Experienced member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
2,109
Reaction score
7,172
Points
113
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
1610013545296.png
1610013594801.png

In case of serious threat to urgent need related to serious national security issues, terror or public disorder equipment of MIT, Police and TSK will be able to be transferred between the services without any restriction with the sign of MIT's director and the relevant minister (Defence or Interior).
 

what

Contributor
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
669
Reaction score
1,761
Points
93
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Militarization of the Turkish police? I dont like it. What use case would there be for the police to use military equipment?

There's already Jandarma with armed drones and APCs. And if the police really needs heavy equipment, we're probably at war or need to get the military involved because there's a big fucking situation. Someone needs to explain to me how this makes sense.
 

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
Messages
352
Reaction score
803
Points
93
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Militarization of the Turkish police? I dont like it. What use case would there be for the police to use military equipment?

There's already Jandarma with armed drones and APCs. And if the police really needs heavy equipment, we're probably at war or need to get the military involved because there's a big fucking situation. Someone needs to explain to me how this makes sense.
It does make sense in SE and parts of E Anatolia. Jandarma, Asker and Polis Kuvvetleri need to cooperate in those regions which is illegal according to the current laws but it happens anyways. This has to be put on a legal basis.
 
A

adenl

Guest
Militarization of the Turkish police? I dont like it. What use case would there be for the police to use military equipment?

There's already Jandarma with armed drones and APCs. And if the police really needs heavy equipment, we're probably at war or need to get the military involved because there's a big fucking situation. Someone needs to explain to me how this makes sense.
Because the police and Jandarma stood there with their mouths full against tanks, APC's, helicopters and F-16's during the attempted coup in 2016. Other countries have dedicated republican guards to deal with this but Turkey choose to diversify the heavy equipment among the different branches of the TSK and police. Now with T129 and TB2's in Jandarma and police service, they can take on tanks that are blocking bridges and important places. And with the S-400, they can take down F-16's and helicopters. These are first and foremost the lessons learned form the coup. For an armed insurgency, the TSK and police SOF are more than enough to deal with them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
Messages
352
Reaction score
803
Points
93
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Because the police and Jandarma stood there with their mouths full against tanks, APC's, helicopters and F-16's during the attempted coup in 2016. Other countries have dedicated republican guards to deal with this but Turkey choose to diversify the heavy equipment among the different branches of the TSK and police. Now with T129 and TB2's in Jandarma an police service, they can take on tanks that are blocking bridges and important places. And with the S-400, they can take down F-16's and helicopter. These are first and foremost the lessons learned form the coup. For an armed insurgency, the TSK and police SOF are more than enough to deal with them.
I'm not saying that the failed coup attempt doesn't play a role in this decision but the situation in SE Anatolia is the main reason behind this law.

Talk to members of Polis and Jandarma forces in the SE and you'll understand why cooperation is urgently needed.
 
A

adenl

Guest
It wasn't F16, tanks and attack helos doing the coup, but the Gülenists. At the time these fanatics were put in these positions with the active help of the government, let's not fool anyone here. The AKP and the Gülenists were basically the same entity. People got bullied out of their jobs, some to a level where they commited suicide. Others just got jailed and Gülen cult members took their places. People conviniently ignored this or straight up supported it, because of how polarized our society is.

Just a few years ago you would have been called a terrorist for pointing this out. The real lesson to be learned is something else. More weapons for everyone won't solve anything. The mentality that lead us here is still normality in Turkey, nothing changed. The real problem isn't being adressed. Loyality over talent is still going strong.
You misunderstand me. It doesn't matter who uses these weapons, as long as there are other means just as powerful to stop a coup. Do you want to throw another 200+ civilians in front of tanks and firing lines or try to 'wet' them out with anti-riot vehicles, or do you want to have a redundant and diversified capability in your armed forces and law enforcement to fight against such an armed coup with equal or better weapons?
 

what

Contributor
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
669
Reaction score
1,761
Points
93
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Because the police and Jandarma stood there with their mouths full against tanks, APC's, helicopters and F-16's during the attempted coup in 2016. Other countries have dedicated republican guards to deal with this but Turkey choose to diversify the heavy equipment among the different branches of the TSK and police. Now with T129 and TB2's in Jandarma an police service, they can take on tanks that are blocking bridges and important places. And with the S-400, they can take down F-16's and helicopter. These are first and foremost the lessons learned form the coup. For an armed insurgency, the TSK and police SOF are more than enough to deal with them.


If you are that much scared of a coup even after turning the military around 5 times. Maybe something is wrong with the government.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
1,517
Reaction score
2,773
Points
113
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
If you are that much scared of a coup even after turning the military around 5 times. Maybe something is wrong with the government.
What is wrong with the government is military power is only governed by one hand. There must be a stopping power to stop the military if it goes bad. Otherwise military is not the judge to judge the government and take action against it. We haven't elected the military to be the judge, we haven't elected them at all.
 
Last edited:

Kartal1

Experienced member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
2,109
Reaction score
7,172
Points
113
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
People tend to understand this as only Emniyet will get equipment from TSK while the law says that in urgent situations every service can borrow equipment from each other with the MIT's approval and the signatures of the forces in question (Interior and Defence Ministers).

For example TSK can borrow an Akinci to MIT for a large scale operation with the signatures of MIT's man in power and the Defence Minister.

Another example: Gendarmerie is low on engineering vehicles because they are already working in an internal counter-terrorism operation so it can't assist Emniyet properly but Emniyet needs them urgently. At the same time TSKs engineers in the country are low on numbers because of large scale multi axis cross-border operation but there is reserve equipment present so Emniyet can ask TSK to borrow them engineering vehicles without compromising security.

Another example: TSK is low on TOMA vehicles because there is protests all over Northern Syria and Northern Iraq. Gendarmerie is assisting but it is not enough. In that case Emniyet can borrow TOMA vehicles to TSK for a certain period of time so the public unrest can be controlled.

Another example: MIT is required to do an urgent helicopter rescue of field agents deep in Iraq but because of the nature of the operation, possible security breaches and equipment requirements MIT decides to request for a Blackhawk
helicopter undergone Yarasa modernization but OKK opposes so the Defence Minister opposes and instead TSK borrows MIT a Cougar.

Another example: There is a big unrest in the whole country together with terrorism. Emniyet gave many casualties and they are low on armored vehicles so the Minister of Interior asks the Minister of Defence to borrow an amount of Vuran and Kirpi vehicles to EGM because they can't continue operations safely while at the same time they are giving their purchase for additional MRAPs to BMC and the ones borrowed from TSK are serving as stop gap.

There are many such possible examples and this is not exclusively a bad thing.

I wound advice everybody to look at the document I will post below. This is a document themed on "The Most Dangerous Possible Scenario" for Turkey and it is part of the 2003 1st Army Plan Seminar. I would like to note that the most of the dangers in that seminar are still relevant and very minor details are outdated.

Imagine such a scenario and look around at our geopolitical dynamics and recent threats to global and regional stability.

The threats that TSK thinks are possible to emerge at the same time and pose a great danger to Turkey are as following:

Leftist terrorism (TIKKO), American operation against the Iraqi Government, Shia independent State in Iraq, KRG independence, PKK activating itself in the Southeast, Turkmens in Iraq in great danger demand support from TSK, Cyprus integration, Aegean Sea dispute and war with Greece, Islamist pro-Shariah terrorism and rebellion triggered by the tension with Christian powers.

Document:

“The main thing is the Inner Front. This front is the one concerning the whole country, the whole nation. Exterior front is the direct armed front of the army against the enemy. This front can shake, it can change, it can be defeated, it can be recaptured, but this situation is not enough to destroy a country, a nation. The important front is the one that can destroy a country with its foundations, enslave its nation if its destroyed and that is the Inner Front. The enemies who know this truth even better than we do, worked for hundreds of years to make that front fall and they are still working.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
 

Sinan

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
1,063
Reaction score
2,791
Points
113
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
As usual, government made no explanation to public, sought no consensus. One man decided one thing, and left every other one wondering. Except the ones that obey blindly of course.
 

OPTIMUS

New member
Joined
Jan 7, 2021
Messages
1
Reaction score
3
Points
3
Könnte man die Möglichkeit auch in Betracht ziehen, dass man für die oben gennante Kräfte ausser Militär auch in grenzübergreifenden Operationen die Zusammenarbeit und-wirkung mit Militär erleichtern will.

Mod translation: Could one also consider the possibility that one wants to facilitate the cooperation and effect with the armed forces in cross-border operations for the above-mentioned forces besides the armed forces.

Please use English so everybody can understand. Thank you!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kartal1

Experienced member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
2,109
Reaction score
7,172
Points
113
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
All of these examples point to terrible interoperbility and if any of this is actually the case, people should start questioning why. This is a bad solution for a problem that shouldn‘t exist.

There are reasons why assets are where they are and aren‘t juggled around as anyone pleases. You‘re creating problems in other places with the strategy explained in your post.
Nobody will juggle equipment as he pleases. This is not a law that will be used every Monday to transfer F-16s to Emniyet. We saw very clearly how policemen were dying in Shortlands in 2015/2016 while they were waiting for their MRAPs. We also saw very clearly how their equipment was not suited for barricade demolition.

God forbid we enter circumstances in which TSK can't shine on every corner like now. Then what? Needed equipment on other fronts stays in the depots because there is no TSK personnel to operate it, it is unlawfully transferred (seized) to EGM or MIT in situation of chaos without official paperwork or it is lawfully transferred to MIT or EGM. Make your choice.

I am sure you know about the rumors of transferred weapons of EGM to certain groups in the coup night. While it is a rumor I am 75% sure it happened. Can you tell me according to which law these weapons were transferred to these people, is there any official paper work which can prove that they are being transferred, by who were they transferred and to who are they transferred? It is known that there are weapons missing. According to you how we should deem those weapons? They will stay just as missing as they perished like steam, stolen or officially transferred trough a law procedure
(which is missing at that time) ? Now on the place of EGM you place TSK and the transferred weapons and equipment is to MIT and EGM. We need such a law in a case of transfer of weapons or equipment to other service otherwise if happens it is banditry.

Now lets assume that Recep Tayyip Erdogan is not the President of Turkey. Would you still protest such a decision making transfer of equipment between different security forces easier within the law?

Turkey's destiny is such that with its geographic placement and ambition it is covered in excrements to its knees. Multiple external and internal dangers are waiting behind the corner and the readiness of the Turkish security system must be on the highest level including inter-service coordination and interoperability.

Did you read the MOBILIZATION AND WAR STATE REGULATION law? If not go read it carefully and think which is the missing part.


Personalities come and go. The national security of Turkey and its future are on first place.
 

Huelague

Contributor
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
1,318
Points
113
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Könnte man die Möglichkeit auch in Betracht ziehen, dass man für die oben gennante Kräfte ausser Militär auch in grenzübergreifenden Operationen die Zusammenarbeit und-wirkung mit Militär erleichtern will.
Könnte man die Möglichkeit auch in Betracht ziehen, dass man für die oben gennante Kräfte ausser Militär auch in grenzübergreifenden Operationen die Zusammenarbeit und-wirkung mit Militär erleichtern will.
In English please.
 

Kartal1

Experienced member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
2,109
Reaction score
7,172
Points
113
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
Könnte man die Möglichkeit auch in Betracht ziehen, dass man für die oben gennante Kräfte ausser Militär auch in grenzübergreifenden Operationen die Zusammenarbeit und-wirkung mit Militär erleichtern will.

Mod translation: Could one also consider the possibility that one wants to facilitate the cooperation and effect with the armed forces in cross-border operations for the above-mentioned forces besides the armed forces.

Please use English so everybody can understand. Thank you!
I didn't saw nothing which is preventing such a thing
 

liblob

Active member
Joined
Sep 14, 2020
Messages
36
Reaction score
147
Points
33
Nobody will juggle equipment as he pleases. This is not a law that will be used every Monday to transfer F-16s to Emniyet. We saw very clearly how policemen were dying in Shortlands in 2015/2016 while they were waiting for their MRAPs. We also saw very clearly how their equipment was not suited for barricade demolition.

God forbid we enter circumstances in which TSK can't shine on every corner like now. Then what? Needed equipment on other fronts stays in the depots because there is no TSK personnel to operate it, it is unlawfully transferred (seized) to EGM or MIT in situation of chaos without official paperwork or it is lawfully transferred to MIT or EGM. Make your choice.

I am sure you know about the rumors of transferred weapons of EGM to certain groups in the coup night. While it is a rumor I am 75% sure it happened. Can you tell me according to which law these weapons were transferred to these people, is there any official paper work which can prove that they are being transferred, by who were they transferred and to who are they transferred? It is known that there are weapons missing. According to you how we should deem those weapons? They will stay just as missing as they perished like steam, stolen or officially transferred trough a law procedure
(which is missing at that time) ? Now on the place of EGM you place TSK and the transferred weapons and equipment is to MIT and EGM. We need such a law in a case of transfer of weapons or equipment to other service otherwise if happens it is banditry.

Now lets assume that Recep Tayyip Erdogan is not the President of Turkey. Would you still protest such a decision making transfer of equipment between different security forces easier within the law?

Turkey's destiny is such that with its geographic placement and ambition it is covered in excrements to its knees. Multiple external and internal dangers are waiting behind the corner and the readiness of the Turkish security system must be on the highest level including inter-service coordination and interoperability.

Did you read the MOBILIZATION AND WAR STATE REGULATION law? If not go read it carefully and think which is the missing part.


Personalities come and go. The national security of Turkey and its future are on first place.

I have to disagree. The moment it gets hot in there, you pull out the police. This isn‘t the area of their expertice. This is full on urban warfare.

Also, according to some stories it was the Gülenists stopping the army to completely enter the battle grounds at the beginning of hendek and tried very hard for a while. until it wasn‘t possible anymore, which is why the problem you tried explaining arose in the first place. Even with such a law, Gülenists would have stopped it as long as they could.

As for the coup scenario. As I already said, more guns for everyone won‘t solve that. You‘re adressing the problem from the wrong angle in my opinion. You need a mechanism that doesn‘t allow a coup to happen, instead of one where you try to quell it with heavy weaponry, the force you are giving it to isn‘t familiar with. You‘re just creating more death and chaos.

What‘s needed is a bigger variety of dedicated task forces trained specifically for scenarios. We got 10.000+ PÖH members who do the same crap, even stuff regular cops could do, or just stuff their 6 months training isn‘t made for.

I don‘t know of unused equipment that would serve better in other branches of security forces. But we saw in the past that older gear has been handed over to different institutions. So that is already being done.

So this begs the question again what this law is meant for. The phrasing is sketchy and could mean anything.

And I wasn‘t making any of these arguments with Erdogan on my mind. I sincerely don‘t see it making any sense.
 
Last edited:

Kartal1

Experienced member
Moderator
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
2,109
Reaction score
7,172
Points
113
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
I have to disagree. The moment it gets hot in there, you pull out the police. This isn‘t the area of their expertice. This is full on urban warfare.

Also, according to some stories it was the Gülenists stopping the army to completely enter the battle grounds at the beginning of hendek and tried very hard for a while. until it wasn‘t possible anymore, which is why the problem you tried explaining arose in the first place. Even with such a law, Gülenists would have stopped it as long as they could.

As for the coup scenario. As I already said, more guns for everyone won‘t solve that. You‘re adressing the problem from the wrong angle in my opinion. You need a mechanism that doesn‘t allow a coup to happen, instead of one where you try to quell it with heavy weaponry, the force you are giving it to isn‘t familiar with. You‘re just creating more death and chaos.

What‘s needed is a bigger variety of dedicated task forces trained specifically for scenarios. We got 10.000+ PÖH members who do the same crap, even stuff regular cops could do, or just stuff their 6 months training isn‘t made for.

I don‘t know of unused equipment that would serve better in other branches of security forces. But we saw in the past that older gear has been handed over to different institutions. So that is already being done.

So this begs the question again what this law is meant for. The phrasing is sketchy and could mean anything.

And I wasn‘t making any of these arguments with Erdogan on my mind. I sincerely don‘t see it making any sense.
Look I think I understand how you look at the situation. I am sure Emniyet, TSK and Gendarmerie have enough resources to deal with the job of their expertise. I am also sure that if TSK is not overwhelmed by their tasks or the conditions are normal the armed forces will assist with their equipment and personnel within the scope of TSK commanded operation.

In a state of mobilization or in a state of war TSK takes responsibility over the commanding, organizing, training, supplying national combat forces which will assist the Turkish Armed Forces in such a situation. The main active duty armed force is compiled of the Turkish Armed Forces, Gendarmerie General Command and the Coast Guard Command. There is coordination mechanism between the Turkish Armed Forces, the ministries and the Council of Ministries regarding tasking and supplying government institutions and private organizations. TSK have the responsibility of organizing all of the State's resources, secure the needed supplies and securing the most efficient transition from state of peace to mobilization and state of war. In such states of emergency EGM personnel can be tasked by TSK for something they are not fully prepared in terms of equipment. While TSK have the command over the process there is no situation like "everybody turns to private". There is no changing of structure of the State's institutions where every structure falls within TSK. As I said above TSK is also responsible for the supply to government institutions and private organizations. TSK is giving tasks and the tasked unit is doing that task. If the tasked force make a request to TSK then the armed forces can assist them. TSK after a degree from the Council of Ministries have the right to use other government institution's or private resources.

With the law in question now EGM, TSK and MIT are given the possibility to supply one another in urgent need. There is no thing like one is taking over the tasks of the other. That law is not compiled for everyday use. The law is aimed at providing simplified procedure of urgent supply to the service in need of equipment. As you stated yourself everybody have its own task and expertise, and as I said Emniyet, TSK, Gendarmerie are all well suited for their tasks with their budget and existing resource. If the situation is that good then you think what kind of state there must be so the law is used. I will say again that the law is not for everyday use and it is giving a simplified procedure for transferring urgently needed equipment between services. Urgently needed in harsh conditions doesn't mean that EGM will ask for 100 M-48s because there are protests or in a situation of coup the loyal part of the TSK will give its equipment to EGM so EGM could deal with the coup. This is simply not possible and if made will be suicidal for the whole country.
 

UkroTurk 🚬

Experienced member
Professional
Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
1,556
Reaction score
3,242
Points
113
Nation of residence
Ukraine
Nation of origin
Turkey
Turkish Army will transmit tanks to police in order to flatten Bosphorus University if they ignite second Gezi protests. Rioter students will be stopped by 40mm Anti-aircraft cannons if they don't obey the rector.

Somebody is preparing what the Trump has done but establishing own guards. Erdoğan and Bahçeli met 3 times, something will happen soon.

How could an ordinary police officer exploit a tank or IFV, or ATGM or MANPADS or SAM. They will need to have professionals.WTF? What kind of logic behind this decision?. Why split the Turkish Army? Very dangerous move. May God save our country.

 
Last edited:

what

Contributor
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
669
Reaction score
1,761
Points
93
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
I see this as a sign of paranoia in the palace in Ankara. There's not a single person left in the military that was not vetted by the AKP twice or thrice. Someone is so scared he's building his own parallel structures and giving them rights that make no sense otherwise. And why would it be MIT deciding? This reeks.

Like @UkroTurk said: who's going to man those Tanks or F16 or Ataks? Even our military personnel can't properly drive the APCs without proper training.
 

AzeriTank

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 7, 2020
Messages
427
Reaction score
1,284
Points
93
Nation of residence
Azerbaijan
Nation of origin
Azerbaijan
Turkish Army will transmit tanks to police in order to flatten Bosphorus University if they ignite second Gezi protests. Rioter students will be stopped by 40mm Anti-aircraft cannons if they don't obey the rector.

Somebody is preparing what the Trump has done but establishing own guards. Erdoğan and Bahçeli met 3 times, something will happen soon.

How could an ordinary police officer exploit a tank or IFV, or ATGM or MANPADS or SAM. They will need to have professionals.WTF? What kind of logic behind this decision?. Why split the Turkish Army? Very dangerous move. May God save our country.

living in Ukraine must be stressful these days ;) you imagination.... wow man relax..
 
Top Bottom