Casual Discussion Nilgiri project 1

[Nilgiri]

As some of you know I grew up for a long part of my childhood in Hong Kong.

The events there lately (among other ones regarding India and World at large) led me to clash with lot of Chinese posters (quite intensely).. at an earlier gathering a lot of us were at...till I was basically muzzled on it for good there (and final straw was stuff leading to formation of this forum but thats somewhat a separate story for most of you...given most dont have a "history" like me).

Anyway all of it has lead to growing mental blocks I have been putting on my earlier positive interaction and acquisition of knowledge regarding China (through a unique perspective and set of conduits that hopefully might flesh out with this project).

At risk of totally isolating large parts of my mind into a recess to atrophy (say if events continue to get worse in the next set of years as I see it w.r.t CCP etc)...I will try my best to give the reader here a perspective on what I know and feel about Modern China....the only nation in the world that is of similar vastness to my own (India) over time and space in all domains.

I do owe it to @Joe Shearer and many other worthy members and friends I have gotten to know over time...that I have learned a great deal from myself. I also kind of owe it to myself as kind of a message in a bottle for later me to pick up (if interested then) and write further upon like say a book.

I cannot deny this will be a somewhat bittersweet and even painful thing to do at times....further increased by dawning reality I will very likely never be able to visit my childhood home (HK) again.

I will try my best regardless. What is in my head for certain personal Cantonese-only moments, I will have to figure out over time how to put it best into English and make it flow.

For reference, here is the conversation section that prompted all of this: https://defencehub.live/threads/ind...-2020-news-and-updates.484/page-10#post-14198

======================================================

Without further ado I present the outline I have set for now:


Nilgiri's thoughts on modern China

Prologue: The Azure Dragon's last breaths ( - 1911)

Chapter 1: The Great Lion and the Furious Tiger (1911 - 1916)

Chapter 2: The Grey Serpents and the Lion's return (1916 - 1925)

Chapter 3: The Rise of the Water Dragon (1925 - 1927)

Chapter 4: The Water Dragon's terrible fight with the Fire Dragon (1927 - 1936)

Chapter 5: The Eastern Monster's hellscape, the Dragon sacrifice and the Fisherman's Wife (1937 - 1945)

Chapter 6: The Fire Dragon re-emerges bloodied, mighty and red (1945 - 1949)

Chapter 7: The Red Dragon wins and will redeem (1949 - 1958)

Chapter 8: The Dark Heart of the Blood Dragon and its Nightmare (1958 - 1969)

Chapter 9: A Warrior Dragon joins the fray, the stasis of hate and fresh prospects (1969 - 1976)

Chapter 10: The Student's yearning, renaissance and fearful relapse (1976 - 1989)

Chapter 11: The Kitchen God, Sea Goddess and Yellow Dragon finally return? (1989 - 2012)

Chapter 12: The clouds of amnesia, the tempest of arrogance and the lingering darkness (2012 - )

Epilogue: The Great Banyan, the flight of the Sand-Martin and the Last Stand of Ancient Courage

=====================================

It will be interspersed with a number of personal connections and recollections from dear friends to hopefully give a bridge to how such things manifest at the personal real level and linger a lifetime and more.

It is to be noted that a number of terms I use in the titles are for now highly esoteric (i.e to only me unless someone is super knowledgeable on Hong Kong in a very random coincidental way)...namely the use of "Dragon", "Lion", "Fisherman's wife", "Student" and the entirety of the epilogue (where it will all come together hopefully for the reader to understand in another deeper way).

These is just outline for now, I will take my time with it all (things still forming in my head how to present and put to paper etc and I will need time for it too).

Not sure what the final size will be the time it will take, we shall see. I hope for it to be balanced and interesting....it will largely be free flowing rather than too organised/sourced.

I hope it can help to gain viewership and membership w.r.t the forum.

I will create a new thread (locked till I have the full work done and then open for comments at the end etc) later when I have the prologue finished etc and then add each chapter over time there.

I create this thread to introduce it now as upcoming thing to look out for....and also if you have any questions and suggestions for me (or any other better titles for chapters if you are versed in this history)....or say particular areas/topics of modern China that you would like to see etc....or any general discussion you would like to bring up before I get to it at my discretion later. This thread can also be used for ongoing commentary as I start the actual new project thread etc.

@Saiyan0321 @Saithan @VCheng @Vergennes @xenon5434 @T-123456 @Kartal1 @Cabatli_53 @Yoyo @Yankeestani @Kaptaan @Paro @ANMDT @Webslave @#comcom @Dante80 et al.

 

[Yoyo]

Okay. Great project. I've attempted to start writing books several times but never finished and I have tremendous respect for people with the patience, discipline and determination to see it through. I for one am here for the ride as time permits.

My first humble suggestion: Easy with the metaphors! I'm reading your chapter titles and I don't understand half of them and I automatically get disinterested in what follows. When I read a title I want it to tell me what the chaper is about. I don't want to decrypt a crosswords puzzle. I'd say drop some of those colorful dragons and replace them with something a little more obvious and informative for the general reader. Everyone knows dragon is the symbol of China but I think you shouldn't overdo it bro. There are too many books like that anyway. Instead, tell the reader YOUR story. Let us see it all through YOUR eyes. Make us feel what YOU felt.

Cheers.

 

[Gary]

As some of you know I grew up for a long part of my childhood in Hong Kong.

The events there lately (among other ones regarding India and World at large) led me to clash with lot of Chinese posters (quite intensely).. at an earlier gathering a lot of us were at...till I was basically muzzled on it for good there (and final straw was stuff leading to formation of this forum but thats somewhat a separate story for most of you...given most dont have a "history" like me).

Anyway all of it has lead to growing mental blocks I have been putting on my earlier positive interaction and acquisition of knowledge regarding China (through a unique perspective and set of conduits that hopefully might flesh out with this project).

At risk of totally isolating large parts of my mind into a recess to atrophy (say if events continue to get worse in the next set of years as I see it w.r.t CCP etc)...I will try my best to give the reader here a perspective on what I know and feel about Modern China....the only nation in the world that is of similar vastness to my own (India) over time and space in all domains.

I do owe it to @Joe Shearer and many other worthy members and friends I have gotten to know over time...that I have learned a great deal from myself. I also kind of owe it to myself as kind of a message in a bottle for later me to pick up (if interested then) and write further upon like say a book.

I cannot deny this will be a somewhat bittersweet and even painful thing to do at times....further increased by dawning reality I will very likely never be able to visit my childhood home (HK) again.

I will try my best regardless. What is in my head for certain personal Cantonese-only moments, I will have to figure out over time how to put it best into English and make it flow.

For reference, here is the conversation section that prompted all of this: https://defencehub.live/threads/ind...-2020-news-and-updates.484/page-10#post-14198

======================================================

Without further ado I present the outline I have set for now:


Nilgiri's thoughts on modern China

Prologue: The Azure Dragon's last breaths ( - 1911)

Chapter 1: The Great Lion and the Furious Tiger (1911 - 1916)

Chapter 2: The Grey Serpents and the Lion's return (1916 - 1925)

Chapter 3: The Rise of the Water Dragon (1925 - 1927)

Chapter 4: The Water Dragon's terrible fight with the Fire Dragon (1927 - 1936)

Chapter 5: The Eastern Monster's hellscape, the Dragon sacrifice and the Fisherman's Wife (1937 - 1945)

Chapter 6: The Fire Dragon re-emerges bloodied, mighty and red (1945 - 1949)

Chapter 7: The Red Dragon wins and will redeem (1949 - 1958)

Chapter 8: The Dark Heart of the Blood Dragon and its Nightmare (1958 - 1969)

Chapter 9: A Warrior Dragon joins the fray, the stasis of hate and fresh prospects (1969 - 1976)

Chapter 10: The Student's yearning, renaissance and fearful relapse (1976 - 1989)

Chapter 11: The Kitchen God, Sea Goddess and Yellow Dragon finally return? (1989 - 2012)

Chapter 12: The clouds of amnesia, the tempest of arrogance and the lingering darkness (2012 - )

Epilogue: The Great Banyan, the flight of the Sand-Martin and the Last Stand of Ancient Courage

=====================================

It will be interspersed with a number of personal connections and recollections from dear friends to hopefully give a bridge to how such things manifest at the personal real level and linger a lifetime and more.

It is to be noted that a number of terms I use in the titles are for now highly esoteric (i.e to only me unless someone is super knowledgeable on Hong Kong in a very random coincidental way)...namely the use of "Dragon", "Lion", "Fisherman's wife", "Student" and the entirety of the epilogue (where it will all come together hopefully for the reader to understand in another deeper way).

These is just outline for now, I will take my time with it all (things still forming in my head how to present and put to paper etc and I will need time for it too).

Not sure what the final size will be the time it will take, we shall see. I hope for it to be balanced and interesting....it will largely be free flowing rather than too organised/sourced.

I hope it can help to gain viewership and membership w.r.t the forum.

I will create a new thread (locked till I have the full work done and then open for comments at the end etc) later when I have the prologue finished etc and then add each chapter over time there.

I create this thread to introduce it now as upcoming thing to look out for....and also if you have any questions and suggestions for me (or any other better titles for chapters if you are versed in this history)....or say particular areas/topics of modern China that you would like to see etc....or any general discussion you would like to bring up before I get to it at my discretion later. This thread can also be used for ongoing commentary as I start the actual new project thread etc.

@Saiyan0321 @Saithan @VCheng @Vergennes @xenon5434 @T-123456 @Kartal1 @Cabatli_53 @Yoyo @Yankeestani @Kaptaan @Paro @ANMDT @Webslave @#comcom @Dante80 et al.

Interesting, I'll be watching this very closely...maybe put some of my personal thoughts as well.

 

[Saithan]

I’m looking forward to your tale.

I’ve been on a 30 day backpacker trip in mainland China 13 years ago. All the way to Kunming up to small mountain villages and flew to Quandong as last leg of my trip.

 

[Paro]

I'm super excited. looking forward to it.

 

[Nilgiri]

Okay. Great project. I've attempted to start writing books several times but never finished and I have tremendous respect for people with the patience, discipline and determination to see it through. I for one am here for the ride as time permits.

My first humble suggestion: Easy with the metaphors! I'm reading your chapter titles and I don't understand half of them and I automatically get disinterested in what follows. When I read a title I want it to tell me what the chaper is about. I don't want to decrypt a crosswords puzzle. I'd say drop some of those colorful dragons and replace them with something a little more obvious and informative for the general reader. Everyone knows dragon is the symbol of China but I think you shouldn't overdo it bro. There are too many books like that anyway. Instead, tell the reader YOUR story. Let us see it all through YOUR eyes. Make us feel what YOU felt.

Cheers.

They (metaphors) won't really be used in the body (too much) of the chapters themselves. Don't fret about that heh. These are just titles.

Rather they are to lend toward some poignance at some deeper threads and veins of the earlier (older and ancient era of China). As to lot of the "why" I leave it somewhat a mystery till the final epilogue.

Like for example, there is really nothing that compares to the Dragon in Chinese cultural understanding w.r.t the overall concoction of good, bad, power, fluidity, wealth, passion etc.... that if some mix of these simply becomes a presence by its very size and influence in China....lot of Chinese authors have commented on this.

Think of the understanding regarding Jinn and Nagas etc....they have great power, can be good or bad etc or inbetween etc..

The Dragon wars are huge legacy on China. I put Sun Zhongshan as a Lion to differentiate him actually (as to what a Lion more clearly represents compared to a Dragon esp in Chinese culture)...but I wont be calling him a lion each time in the body itself heh...it is more nuanced esoteric implication for the reader to have in mind.

With Mao and CKS....well jiang/chiang (of slightly different variety) itself is old cognate for water (hence why I picked it)...and they simply are big enough and potent enough on their war (that frankly CKS instigated) that they fought on each other (hence why fire vs water etc), the greater demon/monster that eventually arrived because of their incessant fighting (they had to put things aside and cooperate to try defeat) and then later war on the Chinese peasantry and Chinese soul itself too by the (fire/red) victor in a most cruel despotic way after the great hope.

I mean very quote that CKS said "I would rather 1000 innocents die than let 1 (communist) escape" is a kind of extreme that you can find parallels of earlier Chinese literature about malevolent dragons that may have once been benevolent...simply given the power and control invested in them.

That kind of stuff is what I intend to get into with the allegory and metaphor, but it wont be too much...but rather just a few threads where they are relevant...and then brought together in the end in personal way.

Though you are right there is some overdoing given now I think leaving the dragon war to CKS and Mao is best (Azure Qing is just a prologue and largely contextual)....to best contrast with later era where it was not quite the same thing. So I will replace warrior dragon as "The general" and maybe get rid of yellow dragon later in the titles. Thanks for the input.

Huge part will involve my story and understanding and overall opinion (esp in epilogue where its most apt) dont worry.

Huge part of the earlier stuff will involve references of stories of people I know very well (and their families etc) that lived through parts of it and how that has all shaped the epilogue. Not every chapter will be the same size etc.

 

[Saiyan0321]

I think this is a great idea and i must say that it must be transformed into a proper book so looking forward to it. You know coming to the Chinese quote that @Nilgiri about CKS. In Chinese history you see wide array of examples of high death rate often reaching millions upon an incident and this was especially witnessed in times of war or famine or civil strife, most notable being the massacres of the yellow turban rebellion, sichuan massacres. I am talking about massacres done by their own imperial government against their own people. How much does this happening change the psych of the nation towards high death toll rate and the indifference of hearing such news? Is it because of this philosophy that as long as the bud is nipped it doesnt matter if the field burns?

 

[Nilgiri]

I think this is a great idea and i must say that it must be transformed into a proper book so looking forward to it. You know coming to the Chinese quote that @Nilgiri about CKS. In Chinese history you see wide array of examples of high death rate often reaching millions upon an incident and this was especially witnessed in times of war or famine or civil strife, most notable being the massacres of the yellow turban rebellion, sichuan massacres. I am talking about massacres done by their own imperial government against their own people. How much does this happening change the psych of the nation towards high death toll rate and the indifference of hearing such news? Is it because of this philosophy that as long as the bud is nipped it doesnt matter if the field burns?

This is just result of putting a collective system that triumphs individual rights should it come to that....as compared to bequeathing rights at the individual level intrinsically and building up a system of order from there.

What the roots are in the psyche for both approaches (and various times of wax and wane regarding this) will be something that is covered in the case of China most definitely....but the basic issue is found in many if not all civilisations...but for large part most did not stray from collective as the default, given invasion realities and tribal status quos.

IMO, western civilisation eventually got a real breakout (sustained enlightenment on core individual rights having to be the basis and to be enshrined) on the best model for various reasons, which is a long subject to get into (though some of it does transmit in the stories of the Lion and one of the Dragons.... which I might decide to delve into more, lets see).

On a side note, studying and understanding history (much like astronomy, another interest of mine) is an exercise of greatest humility (at least when done properly).

Lot of times, you will come across the "what ifs" given the significant butterfly effects in operation.

In this story the largest one is most likely what if the Lion lived 20 years more, or even 10 years more, maybe possibly 5 years more even would have been significant...instead of passing at just 58 years old.

The Dragon War would not have happened or been totally different in intensity given his stabilising effect with no succession crisis and bitter purges of entire amputations to get at supposed infections.

The great Eastern monster may never have gotten an inroad to do what it ended up doing, and this could have all changed the very downstream nature and overall macro-reality of China today (psychologically, economically, socially) in near incomprehensible terms....and in ways that definitely would have impact on me and my dear friends stories.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Okay. Great project. I've attempted to start writing books several times but never finished and I have tremendous respect for people with the patience, discipline and determination to see it through. I for one am here for the ride as time permits.

My first humble suggestion: Easy with the metaphors! I'm reading your chapter titles and I don't understand half of them and I automatically get disinterested in what follows. When I read a title I want it to tell me what the chaper is about. I don't want to decrypt a crosswords puzzle. I'd say drop some of those colorful dragons and replace them with something a little more obvious and informative for the general reader. Everyone knows dragon is the symbol of China but I think you shouldn't overdo it bro. There are too many books like that anyway. Instead, tell the reader YOUR story. Let us see it all through YOUR eyes. Make us feel what YOU felt.

Cheers.

The hints are in the dates. 1911 was the Sun Yat-Sen revolution; 1937 was the outbreak of the Sino-Japanese War, that seagued into the Second World War, and that effectively gained China a seat on the Security Council. I'm not going to break my head deciphering the clues, as it is going to be much more fun watching the narrative unfold.

 

[Nilgiri]

Prologue: The Azure Dragon's last breaths ( - 1911) commenced.

 

[VCheng]

This. Will. Be. Good.

Looking forward to it!

 

[Nilgiri]

=========================================================

@whatintarnation this is thread I plan to eventually get started on later.

 

[whatintarnation]

@whatintarnation this is thread I plan to eventually get started on later.

Absolutely fascinating, I can't believe I've only known about this until now. Better late than never I guess

Prologue: The Azure Dragon's last breaths ( - 1911) commenced.

 

[Nilgiri]

Absolutely fascinating, I can't believe I've only known about this until now. Better late than never I guess

Yeah I been really busy since, so its on backburner. But I will get around to it. The big issue is I have never written something like this before....its all in my head sitting ok....but how best to write it/organise it....that is what is going to take the most time.

 

[whatintarnation]

Yeah I been really busy since, so its on backburner. But I will get around to it. The big issue is I have never written something like this before....its all in my head sitting ok....but how best to write it/organise it....that is what is going to take the most time.

You have taken on a monumental task but I'm sure you'll be able to do it.

All the best bro