Featured Proper Amendment to Rape Law is the Need of the Hour

Nilgiri

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If they just change the Evidence law, that alone will see conviction increase many fold. Forensic is the key here

Yes this is exactly what must be done...the laws and court procedures must make use of the forensic science we have now...as compared to the earlier non-availability of these methods when the laws were first made.

This will also hopefully prompt more victims to seek immediate testing at clinic+police office... to get evidence logged....as they see rule of law kick in more (so more dare to speak up and see that ruin their name temporarily etc is ok to try given results in end etc).

Deterrence I was mentioning earlier only really comes into action in broadband way when there is effective permeation of rule of law from both general enforcement but also good access to justice and completion of it.
 

Kaptaan

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Chemical castration is a great idea. Rape is a terrible crime that destroys lifes. I entirely agree with Prime Minister Imran Khan's proposal and I hope it makes it through parliament and gets enacted as law.

turkish gendarmarie units have through out time been arbiter of peace in the most rural areas
Yes, that is a fantastic model that Pakistan should have copied decades ago. The gendarmie model that exists in Europe [Carabineri, Civil Guard etc] would do much good in Pakistan. There already exists Frontier Constabulary, Frontier Corps, Rangers etc which are paramilitary forces but Pakistan really needs a comprehensive Turkish style force of at least 400,000 strength. Such forces are imperative in nation building by creating one canvas for entire country, where individuals mix and are posted all over the country. As in Turkey and Iran they could be used to educate, clean, provide support to local administrations.

What is lacking is vision. In Pakistan almost 95% of the state structure has been inheritated from the British era and they have not really build anything new. Frontier Corps for example date from British era.
 

crixus

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We south Asians are we good in manipulating laws ...... some harsh laws can be used against innocent men , consensual sex can claimed as a rape ..
Chemical castration is a great idea. Rape is a terrible crime that destroys lifes. I entirely agree with Prime Minister Imran Khan's proposal and I hope it makes it through parliament and gets enacted as law.

Yes, that is a fantastic model that Pakistan should have copied decades ago. The gendarmie model that exists in Europe [Carabineri, Civil Guard etc] would do much good in Pakistan. There already exists Frontier Constabulary, Frontier Corps, Rangers etc which are paramilitary forces but Pakistan really needs a comprehensive Turkish style force of at least 400,000 strength. Such forces are imperative in nation building by creating one canvas for entire country, where individuals mix and are posted all over the country. As in Turkey and Iran they could be used to educate, clean, provide support to local administrations.

What is lacking is vision. In Pakistan almost 95% of the state structure has been inheritated from the British era and they have not really build anything new. Frontier Corps for example date from British era.
 

Nilgiri

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some harsh laws can be used against innocent men , consensual sex can claimed as a rape ..

This happens in West too, its not region specific. Friend of mine almost got charges brought against him, I was ready to go to court to testify on his behalf if it went there given I knew underlying details on the matter...but (thankfully in the end) the woman (whom I also befriended before this all went down as it did in the end) was just using it as a threat to get to him vindictively after a breakup.

So its about setting up the best possible system to handle it to get justice...and have strict proper chain of evidence and thresholds/handling as possible.
 

crixus

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The worse is attempted rape ..no proof needed and a guy get convicted, you are right the difference between west and East in the west if court exonerates no one tags you in public in the east even if the court exonerates, you still remained guilty in public eyes, harsh criminal laws in south Asia is double-edged sword :)
This happens in West too, its not region specific. Friend of mine almost got charges brought against him, I was ready to go to court to testify on his behalf if it went there given I knew underlying details on the matter...but (thankfully in the end) the woman (whom I also befriended before this all went down as it did in the end) was just using it as a threat to get to him vindictively after a breakup.

So its about setting up the best possible system to handle it to get justice...and have strict proper chain of evidence and thresholds/handling as possible.
 

crixus

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There is a bias towards men in Judiciary, no matter how good a father you are and no matter how bad a mother is still females are the first choices of Child's custody, even in rape laws as a male you are always guilty either inside court or outside.

In India, there were rackets where they blackmail just on the basis of strict rape laws, guilty must be punished but not at the cost of innocent
I think you need to correct that.
 

Anmdt

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Chemical castration is a great idea. Rape is a terrible crime that destroys lifes. I entirely agree with Prime Minister Imran Khan's proposal and I hope it makes it through parliament and gets enacted as law.
Or leaving true justice to be served in Prisons, rapists isn't really "welcomed" in most of the jails.
Chemical castration will be reversible, i bet, eventually those rapists would find a way to break it.
 

Nilgiri

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The worse is attempted rape ..no proof needed and a guy get convicted, you are right the difference between west and East in the west if court exonerates no one tags you in public in the east even if the court exonerates, you still remained guilty in public eyes, harsh criminal laws in south Asia is double-edged sword :)

Well Yes and No. I would argue plenty of instances of travesty of justice on this in West too if you have been following some of the kangaroo court process set up in a number of college campuses just one example: http://spinella-law.com/pg/blog/July-2018.php

Plenty of peoples lives have been ruined by false accusations (and not knowing or having funds/time to clear their name in a higher court or lawyering up properly in first place and knowing their rights)...many accusers are precisely after that even if they know they are lying and cant get anything to stick. This is a long disturbing subject to get into, its not my intention here tbh.

Anyway I feel I have addressed overall by saying:

So its about setting up the best possible system to handle it to get justice...and have strict proper chain of evidence and thresholds/handling as possible.

The rest I am not really going to argue which population is best and worst on it (past the system debate itself), as in south asia (and developing world broadly) there is not even a robust enough system set up to evaluate this properly, given the basic threshold system of access/resolution is stuck in a really antiquated place stacked against genuine rape victims (as is large part of societal norms and taboos and pressures on this subject for a victim to shut up about it etc)...let us be quite frank.

But it should not ever be assumed the West is some goody goody two shoes on this and everyones a civilised well meaning person....there is an abominable miscarriage of justice that happens here too, just the system is overall set up quite a sight better than most of rest of world that you can have a sound debate on it at least.

Thus If a proper judicial reform is set up in South Asia, it would look into what @Saiyan0321 has mentioned and bring up better legal practices and procedures first thing that use concrete evidence basis, rather than reach across the vast middle to the other extreme end and push any punishment of spurious evidence chains of exclusive hearsay as 1st thing of focus etc. That would be missing forest for the trees....as there is so much work to be done in better areas first. This has to be done properly and sequentially and logically ....the goal is to punish actual criminals and deliver actual justice.
 

Saiyan0321

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Thus If a proper judicial reform is set up in South Asia, it would look into what @Saiyan0321 has mentioned and bring up better legal practices and procedures first thing that use concrete evidence basis, rather than reach across the vast middle to the other extreme end and push any punishment of spurious evidence chains of exclusive hearsay as 1st thing of focus etc. That would be missing forest for the trees....as there is so much work to be done in better areas first. This has to be done properly and sequentially and logically ....the goal is to punish actual criminals and deliver actual justice.
Absolutely. Proper reforms and its implementation can go a long way in providing justice. The thing is in our legal system, there is a greater chance of being acquitted than being punished especially in punishments which center around death penalty and the real hardships people face, in most cases, is the delay in the system for example a person being jailed for years and years due to the slow procedure simply because the offense was non-bailable. To combat this, Pakistan law actually made statutory bail quite easy to get. Here are some of the case laws concerning Statutory bail


PLD 2017 SC 147 ADNAN PRINCE (Yes his name had prince in it. Dont know what that is about) versus THE STATE
"It has been consistently held by the Supreme Court that if a case on such statutory delay in the conclusion of trial is made out then, ordinarily,bail should not be refused on hyper technical ground.
The Primary object behind this view is that in case any accused person under detention is acquitted at the end of the trial then, in no manner the wrong, caused to him due to long incarceration in prison pending trial, he cannot be compensated in any manner while on the other hand, in case, if he is convicted then, he has to be rearrested and put behind the bars to undergo his sentence and in that case no prejudice would be caused to the prosecution complainant.
Of course, it is too late but we are constrained to give a wake-up call to the prosecution/State that in Criminal cases involving capital punishment, the Investigators and Prosecutors, consisting of large fleets who are being sustained and maintained at the cost of tax payers money of the poor people, shall diligently perform their statutory duties obligations otherwise, they will be guilty of violating the mandatory statutory provisions of the Cr.PC., the Constitution and Law relating to the prosecution branch. It is a universal principle of law that to have a speedy trial is the right of every accused person, therefore, un necessary delay in trial of such cases would amount to denial of justice."


Let me also give another case law that i was reading last night


2016 LHC 4291 Muhammad Khalid. Vs. The State etc.
DETAILED ORDER.
This is an application for post arrest bail on behalf of Muhammad Khalid in case FIR No.90/2014, dated 27.02.2014, under Section 302, 109, 120-B, 118, 148, 149 PPC, registered with Police Station, Noshehran Virkan, District Gujranwala.
2. Precisely, the allegation against the accused/petitioner is that he in furtherance of common object with his co-accused while armed with deadly weapons, launched a murderous assault on Ghulam Murtaza (deceased) and murdered him by causing injuries on his legs.
3. The petitioner previously applied for bail after arrest on merits, which came up for hearing before this Court on 23.07.2015 and was dismissed through an order passed in Crl. Misc. No. 6533-B/2015. This is the second application for bail after arrest, moved on fresh ground of non-conclusion of trial even after the elapse of a period of two years and the filing of a private complaint by the widow of the deceased, against the complainant and the two eye witnesses nominated in FIR.
4. Learned counsel for the petitioner submits that the case has taken a turn as the widow of the deceased has filed a private complaint against the complainant namely Ghulam Mustafa and the two other witnesses namely Muhammad Khalil and Allah Ditta; that despite the fact the petitioner is behind bars for the last about 30-months but the trial has not yet concluded; that a valuable right for the grant of bail has accrued to the petitioner due to the non-conclusion of trial; that the trial is not delayed due to any act or omission of the petitioner and that the petitioner is neither dangerous nor desperate or previously convicted offender, hence is entitled to concession of bail.
5. Learned Deputy District Public Prosecutor assisted by the learned counsel for the complainant has vehemently opposed the grant of bail and argued that the filing of the private complaint by the widow is no fresh ground, hence the instant bail petition is not maintainable; that the delay in conclusion of trial is caused due to the arrest of co-accused in some other case and that a direction for the expeditious disposal of the case will be an appropriate order in this case.
6. I have heard the arguments of the learned counsel for the parties and have perused the record.
7. The instant case was registered on 27.02.2014, whereas the private complaint, which according to the learned counsel for the petitioner is a fresh ground, was filed on 06.05.2016. This private complaint is filed by Sobia, who is widow of Ghulam Murtaza (deceased) against Ghulam Mustafa (complainant) Muhammad Khalil and Allah Ditta (the two witnesses nominated in FIR). Even in the said private complaint, she has not claimed to have witnessed the occurrence and instead her blame against the accused of the private complaint is based on the evidence of extra judicial confession only. Without commenting upon the nature of acquisition contained in private complaint, this Court is of the view that due to the delay in filing the complaint and the nature of evidence, this complaint, in no way provides a fresh ground to the petitioner.
8. The entitlement of the petitioner to the concession of bail, based on the 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C is properly thrashed out by this Court from the record. The petitioner was arrested in this case on 18.05.2014, and the report under section 173 Cr.P.C. was submitted on 12.09.2014. In pursuance of submission of report under section 173 Cr.P.C. the copies under section 265-C Cr.P.C. were distributed on 20.05.2015 and resultantly charge was framed on 06.07.2015. The perusal of the record reveals that on most of the dates, the prosecution witnesses were found absent. There are only two adjournments, which can purely be attributed to the defence, one being of 04.11.2015 and the other one of 11.04.2016. Both the interim orders are being reproduced below:-
(i). “04.11.2015. Accused Khalid in custody.
Accused Zafar Iqbal, Nazim Hussain, Imtiaz and Khan Muhammad on bail.
Learned Deputy District Public Prosecutor for the State.
PWs are present but accused stated that they have not engaged their counsel and requested for an adjournment. Present PWs are bound down for the next date. To come up on 17.11.2015.”
(ii). “11.04.2016. Accused Khalid in police custody.
Accused Zafar Iqbal, Nazim Hussain, Imtiaz and Khan Muhammad on bail.
Complainant in person with PW Allah Ditta.
Learned ADPP on behalf of State.
Present PW is bound down. None of the remaining PWs are present. Let nonbailable warrant of arrest be issued in the name of SHO concerned for the production of remaining PWs on 25.04.2016.”
On the earlier date, the petitioner sought an adjournment to engage a counsel. Such a right is provided to him under section 340 Cr.P.C as well as under Article 10 of the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, 1973. As regards, the second date, it is observed that the set of the three eye witnesses namely Ghulam Mustafa, Muhammad Khalil and Allah Ditta was not complete, hence, these two dates cannot be attributed to have contributed towards the delay, so as to render the petitioner disentitled from the concession of bail on the statutory ground. The perusal of the order sheet further reveals that on many dates, due to the absence of PWs, the learned trial court was forced to have recourse towards adopting coercive measures to procure their attendance. In this respect reference can be made to the order sheet of 10.12.2015, 05.01.2016, 18.01.2016, 17.09.2016, 08.10.2016, 30.07.2016, 03.09.2016, 14.03.2016, 28.03.2016. Admittedly, till date not a single prosecution witness has been examined whereas according to the calendar of witnesses, the proposed prosecution evidence comprises upon 19 witnesses.
9. In order to decide the question of entitlement of the petitioner, to be released on bail on account of statutory delay, it would be in fitness of things to peep through the legal archive, so far as it relates to grant of bail on account of delay. The provision of 3rd proviso was added in section 497 Cr.P.C. through Ordinance No. LXXI of 1979. An amendment was brought about in in section 497 Cr.P.C and a proviso was added therein to the following effect:-
“Provided further that the Court shall, except where it is of opinion that the delay in the trial of the accused has been occasioned by an act or omission of the accused or any other person acting on his behalf, direct that any person shall be released on bail—
(a) Who, being accused of any offence not punishable with death, has been detained for such offence for a continuous period exceeding one year and whose trial for such offence has not concluded; or
(b) Who, being accused of an offence punishable with death, has been detained for such offence for a continuous period exceeding two years and whose trial for such offence has not concluded.”
Later on, in the year 1983, Section 497 Cr.P.C. underwent a further change through Ordinance No. XXXII of 1983, whereby the 4th proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C was added therein. The relevant portion of the said Ordinance is reproduced hereunder:-
“Provided further that the provisions of the third proviso to this subsection shall not apply to a previously convicted offender or to a person who, in the opinion of the Court, is a hardened, desperate or dangerous criminal.”
It is found that prior to 1979, no enabling provision was in existence in Criminal Procedure Code, whereby a person could be released on bail on account of delay in conclusion of trial. Even then, prior to the insertion of 3rd proviso, the delay was always considered as a ground for the grant of bail. However, at that time the courts were of the view that the delay must be inordinate or scandalous in nature. In this respect, reference can be made to the judgment reported as Ghulam Jillani Vs. SHO Gulberg (PLD 1975 Lahore 210). The observation of this Court is being reproduced hereunder:-
“Similarly, on the question of bail after arrest, after some amount of uncertainty, the law is now well settled that inordinate delay is a good ground for bail even in those cases which otherwise fall within the prohibition contained in subsection (1) of section 497 Cr.P.C. Thus, the ground of delay can be taken as another relevant analogy for the present discussion. It has been held that inordinate delay amounting to abuse of process of law furnishes good ground for bail.”
In another case reported as Ahrar Muhammad Vs. The State” (PLD 1974 Supreme Court 224), the Hon‟ble Supreme Court of Pakistan observed as under:-
“It is true that the view of the Supreme Court has consistently been that mere delay by itself is not a sufficient ground for the granting of bail; but, at the same time it cannot be said that inordinate or unjustified delay in the prosecution of a case amounting to an abuse of process of law can never be taken into account as relevant ground for the granting of bail. If the delay is so inordinate or so scandalous or so shocking as to amount clearly to an abuse of the process of law there can be no reason either in principle of law as to why it cannot be treated as a sufficient ground for the granting of bail. If such delay can be sufficient for quashing a criminal proceeding then it can also be an equally good ground for the granting of bail.”
In the case of Sher Zaman Vs. Muhammad Azad (1978 SCMR 248), while dealing with an application for the cancellation of bail granted to him by the Hon‟ble Lahore High Court on account of delay in conclusion of trial, following observation was made by Hon‟ble Supreme Court of Pakistan:-
“The discretion exercised by the learned Single Judge in the High Court or releasing the accused on bail cannot be said to be illegal or perverse in view of the authority reported in PLD 1977 SC 480. Under the circumstances, this petition is, therefore, dismissed.”
10. This Court is also not oblivious of the fact that in the past, the provision of 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. was misused resultantly the Honourable Supreme Court of Pakistan observed in the judgment reported as Sh. Liaquat Hussain Vs. Federation of Pakistan (PLD 1999 SC 504 and page 635) as under:-
45. “Before concluding the above discussion it will not be out of context to point out that the third proviso to section 497 the Criminal Procedure Code is also substantially contributing towards the delay in the disposal of criminal cases as it entitles and accused person accused of an offence not punishable with death to obtain bail on the expiry of one year from the date of his arrest, and in case of an offence punishable with death on the expiry of two years period from the date of his arrest. Some of the accused persons by their design ensure that the trials of their cases are delayed, so that they may come out of jails on the expiry of the above statutory period. In my humble view, the above provision has been misused and the same needs to be deleted. I may also observe that even before the incorporation of the above proviso, it was open to a Court to grant bail in a fit case on the ground of inordinate delay in the trial of a case, but no accused person was entitled to claim bail as a matter of right on the expiry of certain period.” Resultantly, the 3rd and 4th proviso were omitted from section 497 Cr.P.C. However, in the recent past, the legislatures again inserted 3rd and 4th proviso in section 497 Cr.P.C. through the Code of Criminal Procedure (Amendment Act) VIII of 2011, w.e.f 18.04.2011. The relevant portion of the said amendment is reproduced hereunder:-
“Provided further that the Court shall, except where it is of the opinion that the delay in the trial of the accused has been occasioned by an act or omission of the accused or any other person acting on his behalf, direct that any person shall be released on bail---
(a) Who, being accused of any offence not punishable with death, has been detained for such offence for a continuous period exceeding on year or in case of a woman exceeding six months and whose trial for such offence has not concluded; or
(b) Who, being accused of an offence punishable with death, has been detained for such offence for a continuous period exceeding two years and in case of a woman exceeding one year and whose trial for such offence has not concluded;
Provided further that the provisions of the foregoing proviso shall not apply to a previously convicted offender for an offence punishable with death or imprisonment for life or to a person who, in the opinion of the Court, is a hardened, desperate or dangerous criminal or involved in terrorism.”
The gist of the above mentioned amendment can be summarized to the effect that a male accused becomes entitled to the concession of bail in a murder case, if he remains in continuous detention for a period exceeding two years and whose trial for such offence is not concluded. In the case of a female accused, such detention is for a period of one year. The entitlement of the accused under 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C., qualifies for acceptance with the condition that such delay is not occasioned by an act or omission of the accused or any other person acting on his behalf. Moreover, the provision of 3rd proviso, is not to be read in isolation, rather are to be considered in conjunction with the provision of 4th proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. This is envisaged in the 4th proviso that the benefit of 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C will not be extended to a person, who is convicted in an offence punishable with death or imprisonment for life or is a hardened, desperate or dangerous criminal or a person, who is involved in an act of terrorism punishable with death or imprisonment for life.
11. The expeditious disposal of the case is the right of every accused person. The prosecution is required to proceed with its case, in all fairness, without delay. No leverage can be given to the prosecution to unnecessarily prolong the trial of the case, even in the cases of capital punishment.
12. In the instant case in order to see the reasons of the non- conclusion of trial, a report was also requisitioned from the learned trial court. The perusal of the report also shows that none of the reason assigned therein, can be attributed to the petitioner or to his counsel. According to this report, the case was adjourned for some dates on account of absence of co-accused Imtiaz, who was statedly arrested in case FIR No. 904/16 under section 9 (c) of Control of Narcotic Substances Act, 1997 registered at Police Station Housing Colony, Sheikhupura. The perusal of the record shows that presently Imtiaz is appearing before the Court. The delay, if any, caused by co-accused does not make the petitioner disentitled from the concession of bail arising out of 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. An accused cannot be held hostage for the act of his co-accused. In this respect reliance can be placed on the judgment reported as Shoukat Ali Vs. Ghulam Abbas and others (NLR 1997 Criminal (SC) 401). Following is the relevant extract of this judgment:-
“It appears that by the time, the accused/respondents were released on bail, period of their incarceration had almost exceeded two years and admittedly their trial had not concluded till then. It has not concluded even till today. Confronted with this position, learned counsel for the petitioner sought to argue that some delay was also caused owning to the non-appearance of the accused, who were placed in column No.2 of the challan and were summoned by the Court. Learned counsel was unable to give us the exact period of delay so caused and even otherwise, the delay, if any, caused on account of non-appearance of the co-accused of the respondents could by no stretch of reasoning be attributed to the latter. Needless to observe that such delay could not be said to have been occasioned by any act or omission of the accused/respondents or any person acting on their behalf.”
13. The ground of delay, for the purposes of grant of bail prior to above referred amendments was undoubtedly within the discretion of the Courts and such question whenever arose, was decided by the courts in accordance with the facts and circumstances and in accordance with the judicial wisdom. There was no legal provision, in any statute, to provide any guideline. The law for the grant of bail, on account of delay developed on the basis of judge made law. However, later on the legislatures intervened and the law was made more specific and certain. The amendments in the shape of 3rd and 4th proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. were brought and guidelines were provided for the grant of bail on the account of delay in conclusion of trial. In the 3rd proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. the word „shall‟ was used by the legislatures. The word shall itself reflects the intent and desire of the legislature that if in the given circumstances the delay is not attributable to the accused and he does not hail from the specific class of persons defined in 4th proviso of section 497 Cr.P.C. then he is to be released on bail as a matter of right. This aspect was discussed by the Hon‟ble Supreme Court of Pakistan in the judgment reported as Nazir Hussain vs. Zia ul Haq and others (1983 SCMR 72). The para 9 of this judgment is relevant, which is reproduced as under:-
“The ground of delay for grant of bail in cases falling within the prohibition contained in subsection (1) of section 497, Cr.P.C. before the effective amendment, was undoubtedly controlled by the discretion of the Court concerned. The facts varied from case to case and accordingly the discretion exercised was creating some anomalies. That is why the Legislature intervened and the law was made more certain. One of the changes effected in the statute from the previous practice in the exercise of discretion, was that the grant of bail on expiry of certain specified period and, under certain conditions was made a matter of right and not only of discretion. We do not agree with the learned counsel that the use of the word „shall‟ in the third proviso, is in the meaning of „may‟. Learned counsel failed to notice that while in first proviso the word „may‟ has been used, in the second and third the word „shall‟ has been used with a view to highlight it. Moreover, reading „may‟ for the „word‟ „shall‟ in third proviso would be in large majority of cases to the detriment of the accused and his liberty, when it becomes due in the context of bail. We accordingly repel the argument of the learned counsel and hold that word „shall‟ in third proviso will have to be read in its ordinary sense. That being some there is nothing in the entire proviso, its main part as also sub-clause (b) to show the grant of bail on ground of delay in cases covered thereunder has been left (in a general way) to the discretion of the Court. We also do not agree with the argument that the matter being entirely of the discretion of the Court it is empowered to take into account the expected/apprehended delay”.
14. The upshot of the above discussion is that since the delay in the conclusion of trial is neither caused nor occasioned by an act or omission of the petitioner, hence he is entitled to the concession of bail on account of statutory delay. This petition is allowed and the petitioner Muhammad Khalid is admitted to bail after arrest subject to furnishing of bail bonds to the tune of Rs. 2,00,000/- with two sureties each of the like amount to the satisfaction of the learned trial court.
15. Before parting with this order, it would be appropriate to mention that if subsequent to his release, the petitioner will cause any delay or hindrance towards the conclusion of trial, the complainant, if so advised, may move an application for the recalling of this order.
16. The above are the reasons of my short order of even date passed in the instant petition by virtue of which the petitioner was ordered to be released on bail.
 

VCheng

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Absolutely. Proper reforms and its implementation can go a long way in providing justice. The thing is in our legal system, there is a greater chance of being acquitted than being punished especially in punishments which center around death penalty and the real hardships people face, in most cases, is the delay in the system for example a person being jailed for years and years due to the slow procedure simply because the offense was non-bailable. To combat this, Pakistan law actually made statutory bail quite easy to get. Here are some of the case laws concerning Statutory bail

A counterpoint:


The prime minister has also ordered "fresh legislation" to protect women and children, whose lives and families have been "destroyed because of abuse", but Malkani says there are sufficient laws to tackle the offences of rape, gang rape and child sexual abuse.

She says all the offences carried very high penalties of life imprisonment and when it comes to the offences of rape and gang rape, even death.

The real focus, to her mind, should be on understanding why there were "cracks" in their implementation.

As I have said before, laws without effective implementation are worthless. What good is "fresh legislation" when the existing laws are useless due to lack of enforcement, a lack of any ability to enforce them, and worst of all, a total lack of will to make any changes?
 

Kaptaan

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As I have said before, laws without effective implementation are worthless. What good is "fresh legislation" when the existing laws are useless due to lack of enforcement, a lack of any ability to enforce them, and worst of all, a total lack of will to make any changes?
That is very true but political governments everywhere have to be seeno be doing something. Motorways are dangeous places. In UK we have had murders and rapes of women whose cars broke down. More cameras, more visible patrols might disuade but will not eliminate such horrible incidents.
 

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That is very true but political governments everywhere have to be seeno be doing something. Motorways are dangeous places. In UK we have had murders and rapes of women whose cars broke down. More cameras, more visible patrols might disuade but will not eliminate such horrible incidents.

You will never eliminate all crime (violent or otherwise)....but much can be done to minimize as far as you can, with what you have.

Vcheng is very correct to bring up the implementation of existing body of law and practice, this parallels somewhat with society also being very static in how it treats rape of its kin...which puts pressure on the victim to stay quiet (and the very nature of the police being unapproachable on this kind of thing if you are of some kind of underclass, with the knowledge it wont be treated seriously or credibly...in fact you can make it worse for yourself depending on who the culprit is etc).

The theory can be read and developed all you want, but its the final tier implementation that counts the most in the end....otherwise the theory waffle is just political/narrative game to distract from the status quo on ground being the same.
 

Kaptaan

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The theory can be read and developed all you want, but its the final tier implementation that counts the most in the end....otherwise the theory waffle is just political/narrative game to distract from the status quo on ground being the same.
Which is why I rarely indulge in debate over legal aspects despite having background in law because I know the issue is NOT the law but the implementation and or the attendent politics that inevitably go with these things.
 

Saiyan0321

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A counterpoint:




As I have said before, laws without effective implementation are worthless. What good is "fresh legislation" when the existing laws are useless due to lack of enforcement, a lack of any ability to enforce them, and worst of all, a total lack of will to make any changes?

I am sending the same message. Work on implementation of laws. Bring fresh legislation to strengthen implementation and conviction if you must like special courts to combat delay of cases in rape cases. Thats a fresh legislation or even using the the Special Courts Act 1976, i believe it is called as such. I agree that there are problems. I talked to NIAZ sir as well on PDF about it. This is why i keep citing proper changes and proper amendment but ofcourse it is far easier to bring in gimmicky legislation than actually bring in proper legislation like DNA evidence as Primary or specifically stating what happens when a MLO refuses to do DNA of a victim. Right now we use 166A and 166B of PPC against them by using the maze, that is common in our field of stating that the MLO is duty bound to see the victim and he is a government officer thus 166A and 166B applies. You can pass a legislation that brings forth proper procedure like the Medical officer, if he finds traces of rape is duty bound to contact the police, take medical report and the police upon arriving takes the victims statement and the rest. Something like this gives an avenue for easier justice and i know that you will say, its another roundabout office trip but that is how the law of this world works in any country. If the executive does not work then you use the courts to make them work. Our problem is that the executive is too lazy and we have to go to courts again and again to make them work.

I get your point that there needs to be an incentive by the state to actually implement the laws rather than just pass them and leave them to the people and the judiciary and there needs to be some form of will. I think one of the major reasons behind a lack of will by the state is that the state knows that implementation of laws is something the people dont care about despite it being the one thing that impacts the life of the people the most. Hear me out. Nobody and i mean nobody is interested in what a law is or what their rights are. They are not interested in Constitutional law nor penal laws nor procedural laws. They are not interested in standing there and demanding that their rights be respected. You see the executive and the parliament will always do what the people want or atleast most of it and they do that to secure their next election. The people dont want implementation of laws. They dont berate their local lawmaker that the Police refused to file an FIR and i had to hire a lawyer. They dont talk about that refusal. What they want are better sewerage system or a road or personal favors. They are just not interested and the electable, the guy that will stand in election, the party behind it know that if they take action and make the police file an FIR no matter what and create such a system and if they bring it to the people, then they will only get blank stares and no votes. The electable will always do what his electorate wants and the elctorate wants roads and sewerage and monuments ( not joking, Javed latif built like 4 monuments and got an F16 and won from Sheikhupura as MNA). What the people want, they will get. I have experienced this enough with the people of Pakistan that law and its implementation is the last subject they
Wish to hear
Wish to understand
Wish to know
Wish to even exist

They consider it as a foreign object placed on them from outside and this lack of respect stems everywhere and the government, then simply focuses on seeing development rather than unseen ones.

We can talk about Lack of will from the government and lack of ability but where is the lack of will from the people. Why dont they pressurize their Lawmaker on making sure he actually does his job and implements a law? I have met many lawmakers and all of them unanimously tell me that nobody is interested in implementation of law and always talk about personal favors and then on seeing developments. I am done giving the people the leeway that they are innocent and everybody else is at fault. Take this Rape discussion on social media. When you dont know what is the penalty of such, you deserve every lack of will by the state in implementation of law. Some of the most educated men stating that rubbish such as bring death penalty, rape isnt a death offense or we have british level evidence law of 1870. Aqal o shaur ke ghafil, Zia removed evidence law of 1800s and brought Qanun e Shahadat. It was his Islamic council that legitimized each law in Pakistan as Islamic. Then ofcourse another. People stand in high court for months without their first hearings. What Rubbish!! You cant file a plaint in High court without attaching Urgent form on it and if you do it before 9 AM then you get your first hearing on that day in the afternoon at 3 in Supplementary Cause List Otherwise the other day at Urgent Cause list where cases are heard and by 10 amish all urgent cases get their first hearings but you know. The rubbish stands. People are not interested in law so how can we expect the legislative to be.

My respected friend, you once stated that the people will always get the system they desire and they should get that system. You said it for PDF and for Pakistan. Well this is the system they want.
Which is why I rarely indulge in debate over legal aspects despite having background in law because I know the issue is NOT the law but the implementation and or the attendent politics that inevitably go with these things.

Really? How interesting. What field of law did you practice in? With the firm or did you make your own firm? Court hearings or the corporate cool guy? :p :p
 

VCheng

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My respected friend, you once stated that the people will always get the system they desire and they should get that system. You said it for PDF and for Pakistan. Well this is the system they want.

Agreed!

In addition to the above, haven't I also said that the Pakistani system works perfectly according to its design?
 

Saiyan0321

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Agreed!

In addition to the above, haven't I also said that the Pakistani system works perfectly according to its design?

You and another Contract lawyer that is based in London and Finland. As he places, "Its a system not formed through chance but through willful design by the architects that benefit from it and is meant to crush all critical thinking and thinkers, talented individuals and out of the box thinkers till they either become part of this system or they die out in isolation."

It definitely works very well.
 

VCheng

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You and another Contract lawyer that is based in London and Finland. As he places, "Its a system not formed through chance but through willful design by the architects that benefit from it and is meant to crush all critical thinking and thinkers, talented individuals and out of the box thinkers till they either become part of this system or they die out in isolation."

It definitely works very well.

... or they leave the country, if a chance arises, to flourish elsewhere.

Yes, it works very well for those who have designed it and keep it running exactly according to their requirements.

(Just like another forum that shall remain unnamed. :D )
 

Saiyan0321

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... or they leave the country, if a chance arises, to flourish elsewhere.

Lucky ones and i literally wonder if people have rocks or boulders in their heads when they leave all that and return to Pakistan.
 

VCheng

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Lucky ones and i literally wonder if people have rocks or boulders in their heads when they leave all that and return to Pakistan.

Those ones that boldly advertise their "patriotic" return are the ones that fail to flourish in an environment where merit rules generally, or are among the well-connected groomed abroad to benefit from their lineage.
 

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