TR Propulsion Systems

[Merzifonlu]

Do we have the funds for two baskets?

This is very good question!

 

[Yasar_TR]

Do we have the funds for two baskets?

It is not up to us to fund the development of the RR engine. TAEC will fund it and make the engine and TAI will buy it. They will make their money by selling it to TAI.
In the meantime TEI will make the indigenous engine. It will be the engine for newer blocks of MMU.
So only TEI engine will be funded by the state. (Most likely partially at that too - remember TEI is also a company that has funds of it’s own)

 

[Baryshx]

No one will give you IP rights of a 5th generation turbofan engine. Let us be realistic. You can’t really expect RR to relinquish a technology that took them decades to perfect, even if we are paying mega bucks for it.

According to the latest statements released by Kale, the best offer will be along the lines of ; the IP rights of the MMU engine will be owned by RR/Kale partnership company TAEC, and it will stay in Turkey. Third party sales of the engine will not be affected. And if the engine needs to be further developed, it will be done by TAEC. In all cases RR will benefit from sales of these engines and it’s derivatives.

As a stop gap engine option and as plan B for the MMU engine supply, we must have an alternative choice of engine manufacturing route in addition to the work being carried out by TEI. At the moment that appears to be TAEC of RR/Kale. This partnership should logically create a second TEI in time for Turkish aerospace industry.

Going through this route will broaden our horizons on the manufacturing techniques of a 5th generation turbofan engine. There will be a lot of cross pollination of technical know how between our two engine manufacturers, as well as the productive adversary occurring between TAEC and TEI.

I hope the RR/Kale option is put on the table soon and finalised. We shouldn’t put all our eggs in TEI’s basket!

If this happens, can we sell the engine to Argentina and Russia? Would the UK have a case of not allowing it?

 

[Rooxbar]

As it stands now, it seems to me that TEI is doing their own advertisement by developing TF6000 with internal funds to showcase their capabilities to SSB which seems to be more inclined to work with the RR/Kale side. So there's no two baskets and there's no government funds for these TEI adventures as I understand it. TEI is just trying hard to be considered a worthy side in the tender.

 

[Trakya_forever]

If we want to make the engine ready until 2028-30, TAEC is the only solution for now.

 

[GoatsMilk]

View attachment 51345

the best way to get western collaboration is to show them that you are on your way to achieving your goals with or without them. Because if they see you are going to end up achieving it anyway, they will take your money and help you get their quicker. No point in not taking the money if the result is going to be the same either way.

 

[Era_shield]

A few things I found interesting from this:

- TF6000 prototype production has already begun
- Cost of prototypes is about 3 times higher than for serial production
- The plastic model shown in the fair has a few changes/omissions compared to the real design so as not to reveal design secrets
- If there is a need, the TF10000 can be adapted for use on KE or dual engine Hurjet
- After TF10000, their next engine will be TF35000
- Hopes to see Gokbey fly with TS1400 engine by mid next year

 

[Baryshx]

A few things I found interesting from this:

- TF6000 prototype production has already begun
- Cost of prototypes is about 3 times higher than for serial production
- The plastic model shown in the fair has a few changes/omissions compared to the real design so as not to reveal design secrets
- If there is a need, the TF10000 can be adapted for use on KE or dual engine Hurjet
- After TF10000, their next engine will be TF35000
- Hopes to see Gokbey fly with TS1400 engine by mid next year

The TF10000 is actually the TF6000...

 

[Zafer]

TEI engine will be able to take the TFX to a sustained speed of 1.4+ mach without an afterburner. This is a tad under what some air superiority fighters can afford but very acceptable for an agile multi-role fighter like the TFX.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If this happens, can we sell the engine to Argentina and Russia? Would the UK have a case of not allowing it?

As a partner they would have a say and the right to protest such a sale. Kale officials stressed that the rights of the engine will be staying in Turkey.
Think of it this way; Would Turkey be pleased if AEI Systems of UK owned by Canik, decided to sell 30mm and 105mm cannons to Greece? Surely we would protest and try to stop it.

 

[bisbis]

Do we have the funds for two baskets?

Today, 90,000 TL is paid for paid military service. Defense industry exports exceeded 4 billion dollars.Need another resource?

 

[Zafer]

It is not that money can not be found for engine development but that the ideal way of doing things causes some tolerable delays.

 

[Pilatino]

RR won't help us they are only trying to waste our time with empty promises. I'm sure about my claim especially after their cooperation with Japan. Do you really think that they welcome a new rival to the game? We're so naive. That's why TEI is our only hope and I'm percent sure that they'll manage to do it and get their place in the champions league at the end.

 

[Hasanrize]

If we want to make the engine ready until 2028-30, TAEC is the only solution for now.

You mean Rolls-Royce. Since Kale Arge didn't make any engine to be working longer than 30 hours, Rolls-Royce is the company that had to make that engine. Experience that Kale Arge is nowhere near TEI that made at least several engines used in drones.

I am not sure that TAEC can make such a high-end engine unless Rolls-Royce puts a lot of critical tech into that company. Why should Rolls-Royce do such a thing? If not, how can Kale Arge fill the gap that Rolls-Royce do not want to share?

 

[Kedikesenfare]

I don't quite understand the issue yet. The Brits are willing to allow Turkey third party sales without any kind of objections from London but we're insisting on owning the Intellectual Property Rights of the engine, too?

 

[GoatsMilk]

RR won't help us they are only trying to waste our time with empty promises. I'm sure about my claim especially after their cooperation with Japan. Do you really think that they welcome a new rival to the game? We're so naive. That's why TEI is our only hope and I'm percent sure that they'll manage to do it and get their place in the champions league at the end.

that to be honest sounds like the british way of doing business.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

"160 Series Domestic Engine Family", our first locomotive engine produced locally and nationally by TÜBİTAK RUTE

3 different types of 8, 12 and 16-cylinder engines up to 2,700 hp will be mass-produced at TÜRASAŞ and the national engines will be used in locomotives, generators and many ships.

 

[Afif]

Today, 90,000 TL is paid for paid military service. Defense industry exports exceeded 4 billion dollars.Need another resource?

Iirc, prof. Ismail demir clearly stated government doesn't have enough resources to fund two separate engine development for TFX.
It was said in the context of merging TR motor, TEI, KALE-RRs effort and combined them in single program.

 

[Combat-Master]

Iirc, prof. Ismail demir clearly stated government doesn't have enough resources to fund two separate engine development for TFX.
It was said in the context of merging TR motor, TEI, KALE-RRs effort and combined them in single program.

Having a consortium to develop TFX engine would be the smartest way to approach such a huge project, would like TOGG project leads to head it - they did beautiful job with TOGG consortium.

 

[Pompier23]

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