TR Propulsion Systems

[TR_123456]

@Zoth ,@hugh

The US cant take the risk of losing Türkiye,especially now.
Some delays maybe but nothing more.

 

[hugh]

I personally think we may try to get the WS-15 engine but the question is, would China give us that very advanced engine? Maybe if the ties with USA gets torn so badly that they may consider it.

Another option is EJ-200 would the Germans let us produce and use that engine in our Kaan?

In worst case scenario where we end up not getting any engines, Kaan may be even delayed to 2032.

EJ-200 is not option. It's too weak for KAAN. And assuming the Chinese gave us their engines(which they wouldn't for the obvious reasons), it still wouldn't remedy our predicament. Engines are not simple plug and play devices. An aircraft is designed and built around an engine. KAAN's development would be in advanced stage and such a drastic change could require design alterations that could delay the program for many years.

I guess, if the push comes to shove, we could use our spare engines and cannibalize some F16s to fly a squadron of KAAN to be able to bring the aircraft to FOC around 2035 when the TF35K catches up the aircraft(the production version of it, not the prototypes). In the meantime, we have to field many(quantity-wise) MRBMs for deterrence and should have an indigenous anti-ballistic SAM solution.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

I think Türkiye needs a similar stopgap that Iran uses, which means a shit ton of ballistic Missiles till we get this fu..... engine problem fixed. All this begging for engines and everyone playing good cop bad cop is pissing me off.

Build thousands of BM, that's the most realistic stopgap we can have till KAAN is out. They won't give us F16, F16 Kits, EF, F35 etc.

 

[hugh]

@Zoth ,@hugh

The US cant take the risk of losing Türkiye,especially now.
Some delays maybe but nothing more.

We can't put our hopes on the prevalence of the rational faculties of the US. We have to assume the worst and be prepared to the best of our abilities.

 

[Kartal1]

The situation currently is such that even if we wanted there's really nothing we can do about it. It is a fact that the prototypes and the first batch of 20 KAAN will fly with US made F110 engines and by the looks there are no other viable alternatives. According to Ismail Demir there are three alternatives, talking about a Japanese, Russian and Chinese engines. Well, for me these alternatives are a no go.

We already received the engines for three prototypes and we will continue with them. If by any chance the US sabotages the project by not delivering more engines then we should rely solely on ourselves.

There's also another important thing. Apart from the bilateral relations between Turkiye and the US this whole defence industry and military cooperation issue should be viewed within the frame of NATO's southern flank and our Navy and Air Force should be capable enough to deter any threats. As long as the dialogue with Greece is okay without serious escalations I think that the US view on possible military equipment sales to Turkiye will only improve with time. The US is way more open to cooperation with Turkiye than the EU leaders, mainly Germany and France.

 

[byzero]

If Turkey wanted and was forced to do so, it could produce an engine very similar to the F110 engine domestically within 4-5 years, so it is not right to compare Iran and Turkey. I think we are on the wrong track regarding the engine. Korea is producing domestic engines for the KF-21 aircraft under license, on the one hand, and is developing an original engine with similar technology, that is the logical thing to do, but we are not in a position to do this due to political reasons.

 

[2033]

@Zoth ,@hugh

The US cant take the risk of losing Türkiye,especially now.
Some delays maybe but nothing more.

Why are we so eager to buy eurofighters if we think they will give us engines? We can already produce Kaan until the first eurofighter is delivered.

 

[TR_123456]

Why are we so eager to buy eurofighters if we think they will give us engines? We can already produce Kaan until the first eurofighter is delivered.

Leverage,insurance,diversity,possibility,you name it.
Betting on several horses.

 

[somegoodusername]

Why are we so eager to buy eurofighters if we think they will give us engines? We can already produce Kaan until the first eurofighter is delivered.

Turkish resource but Kubilay Yıldırım explains it very well.

 

[boredaf]

Why are we so eager to buy eurofighters if we think they will give us engines? We can already produce Kaan until the first eurofighter is delivered.

We won't have production units of Kaan until early 2030s (there were news about it in last month or so iirc), with F110s. Eurofighter deliveries will have already began by then, depending on how the lines work could be close to the end. We shouldn't count on Kaan, especially with our own engines, until mid 2030s, anything else is idealistic/hopeful but not realistic a bit.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Just for fun Chat GPT4o Paid Version

Question:

Is it possible to scale up the TEI TF-6000/10000 engine size and diameter to have similar dimensions as the GE F-110 129 engine with at least 80KN dry and 160KN wet?

Answer:

Yes, it is possible in principle to scale an engine like the TEI TF 6000/10000 to achieve higher thrust, but this requires extensive modifications and improvements to various components of the engine. The following aspects would be crucial:

1. combustion system: to increase thrust from 26 KN Dry 44 KN Wet (as in the TF 6000/10000) to 80 KN (dry) and 160 KN (wet), combustion efficiency would need to be increased. This means that the injection system and combustion chamber must be optimized to release more energy per unit of fuel.


2. turbine and compressor: A higher thrust requires more powerful components in the compressor and turbine. These would have to be designed for higher temperatures and pressure conditions, which may also require the use of improved materials and cooling systems.


3. mass flow: In order to generate more thrust, it may be necessary to increase the air mass flow through the engine. This requires an increased intake area or more efficient compression to feed more air into the combustion chamber.


4. exhaust gas afterburning (wet): To double the thrust in "wet" mode (160 lbf), a more powerful afterburner unit would be required. This would need to be designed to burn a larger amount of fuel efficiently in order to increase thrust by expanding the hot exhaust gases.

5. materials and structures: To cope with the higher loads and temperatures associated with thrust increase, more advanced materials and heat-resistant alloys capable of performing reliably under the extreme operating conditions may be required.

6. Weight and efficiency: Scaling often means an increase in engine weight, which in turn can affect specific efficiency. Therefore, the weight of the engine must be carefully optimized in relation to the desired thrust so as not to compromise the overall performance of the system.

It is therefore technically possible to scale up the TF 6000 to an 80 dry and 160 wet lbf engine, but this requires considerable development work to ensure that all components meet the higher requirements and operate efficiently.

 

[hugh]

I have a question for the engine guys on the forum, if there's any;

KAAN is being developed in blocks. Block 10 will be 4.5th gen, Block 20 could be 4.5 or 5th depending on the availability of the required subsystems and it'll continue to be 5th gen going forward..

Can the same approach be taken regarding the engine development so that we could integrate the engines faster on our aircrafts? There's a looming engine embargo threat and I'm not convinced that we'll get those engines easily, if ever. However TF-35K is, as far as i know, being developed as a full-fledged 5th generation engine. I am not quite sure what those features entail. It's known that it would have reduced RCS and lesser infrared signature. Are these essential features(for 5th gen) and the ones that I'm not aware of strongly coupled with the engine core? To elaborate, can we follow these blocks for TF-35K;

- Block 10: A large low-bypass turbofan, much like F110, with 32K lbf wet thrust and with no 5th gen features

- Block 20: A 38K lbf full-fledged 5th engine.

Can this transition be done by working on the same engine(design-wise) and would not require a clean-sheet design? Could it be an interim-solution if we're denied the F110s?

 

[mohammadtd]

Presently, TEI is supported by GE. In case there is no support from GE or other market leaders, is TEI alone able to develop and support efficient engines in future?

 

[hugh]

Presently, TEI is supported by GE. In case there is no support from GE or other market leaders, is TEI alone able to develop and support efficient engines in future?

Be it funding or technical assistance, TEI gets no help from GE for its engine development efforts.

 

[somegoodusername]

I have a question for the engine guys on the forum, if there's any;

KAAN is being developed in blocks. Block 10 will be 4.5th gen, Block 20 could be 4.5 or 5th depending on the availability of the required subsystems and it'll continue to be 5th gen going forward..

Can the same approach be taken regarding the engine development so that we could integrate the engines faster on our aircrafts? There's a looming engine embargo threat and I'm not convinced that we'll get those engines easily, if ever. However TF-35K is, as far as i know, being developed as a full-fledged 5th generation engine. I am not quite sure what those features entail. It's known that it would have reduced RCS and lesser infrared signature. Are these essential features(for 5th gen) and the ones that I'm not aware of strongly coupled with the engine core? To elaborate, can we follow these blocks for TF-35K;

- Block 10: A large low-bypass turbofan, much like F110, with 32K lbf wet thrust and with no 5th gen features

- Block 20: A 38K lbf full-fledged 5th engine.

Can this transition be done by working on the same engine(design-wise) and would not require a clean-sheet design? Could it be an interim-solution if we're denied the F110s?

If you have the money, TEI could produce a variable-cycle engine for you if needed. However, the Turkish engine industry simply doesn’t have the capacity to develop multiple high-performance jet engines simultaneously. For example, TEI has stated that they currently lack the resources to develop a local engine for the Hürjet.

And, there is no such thing as 4.5th gen Kaan.

 

[somegoodusername]

Presently, TEI is supported by GE. In case there is no support from GE or other market leaders, is TEI alone able to develop and support efficient engines in future?

Foreigners have a fundamentally wrong understanding of foreign ownership of shares in Turkish defense firms: in most cases, they are only involved when it’s time to collect profits.

 

[hugh]

If you have the money, TEI could produce a variable-cycle engine for you if needed. However, the Turkish engine industry simply doesn’t have the capacity to develop multiple high-performance jet engines simultaneously. For example, TEI has stated that they currently lack the resources to develop a local engine for the Hürjet.

And, there is no such thing as 4.5th gen Kaan.

You have misunderstood my post. I do not suggest that we should develop multiple large turbofan engines. My inquiry is the opposite of that. I'm simply asking if it's possible to convert(further develop) an engine like F110 to a 5th gen engine without requiring a clean-sheet design.

As limited as my engine knowledge, I think variable-cycle engine is a few leagues above TEI's current know-how.

how do you designate Block 10 KAAN when the higher-ups at TAI themselves define it as a 4.5th gen plane?

 

[Yasar_TR]

A 5th generation engine needs to be:
1. With high enough dry thrust (22K - 26K lbf) to impart supercruise capability to the plane.
2. Air inlet design to allow radar signals not to bounce back. LP Fan and compressor section to have blade design to be optimised to absorb radar signals.
3. Combustion and nozzle sections will have to be designed to be in line with compressor section, as well as being as cool as possible in general to give a lower IR signature.

The whole 5th generation engine design, at the end of the day, is a compromise and optimised to give high thrust but be cooler and radar sensitive. You can’t produce a 4th generation engine and then gradually turn it in to 5th generation. Each time an engine is produced, it has to go through intensive tests; both on the ground and in the air.

EDIT

F404 and F110(F118) have non afterburner versions that fly f117 and B2 jets. But their inlet, compressors, et al, have all been greatly optimised for stealth operations.

 

[uçuyorum]

Most important features of a 5th gen engine are probably increased fuel efficiency and the overall electricity generation compared to older designs besides the cooling.

 

[hugh]

A 5th generation engine needs to be:
1. With high enough dry thrust (22K - 26K lbf) to impart supercruise capability to the plane.
2. Air inlet design to allow radar signals not to bounce back. LP Fan and compressor section to have blade design to be optimised to absorb radar signals.
3. Combustion and nozzle sections will have to be designed to be in line with compressor section, as well as being as cool as possible in general to give a lower IR signature.

The whole 5th generation engine design, at the end of the day, is a compromise and optimised to give high thrust but be cooler and radar sensitive. You can’t produce a 4th generation engine and then gradually turn it in to 5th generation. Each time an engine is produced, it has to go through intensive tests; both on the ground and in the air.

EDIT

F404 and F110(F118) have non afterburner versions that fly f117 and B2 jets. But their inlet, compressors, et al, have all been greatly optimised for stealth operations.

so the first large turbofan we develop has to be a true 5th gen from the get-go? no viable interim engine as a stopgap?