India Navy SSK Submarines

[Nilgiri]

Did this shipyard make submarine before?

MDL? Yeah, pretty much only one in India. They made two U-209's (and the follow on 2 if executed, but they were cancelled due to corruption case back then) under earlier ToT with HDW (HDW made the first two in Germany) and 6 Scorpenes after it with DCN ToT.

They are trying to finalise an additional 3 (improved) scorpene and now this potential order of 6 HDW U-214 (improved) as well goes to the next stage with south block that we will have to see regarding outlays and timelines commited etc.

HDW has of course since bought by thysenkrupp (TKMS).

The L&T and Navantia partnership would have been the more radical choice given L&T has no experience yet like MDL, unless something was worked out later with MDL involving them.

 

[Zapper]

Yeah, pretty much only one in India

I believe you're only referring to SSKs' since the Arihant class SSBNs' were made in Vizag shipyard and the next gen S5 SSBNs' along with P75A SSNs' too

 

[Nilgiri]

I believe you're only referring to SSKs' since the Arihant class SSBNs' were made in Vizag shipyard and the next gen S5 SSBNs' along with P75A SSNs' too

Obviously since the SSBN program and following SSN program will not be a ToT collab in first place. There was some Russian consultancy involved, thats it. That was the whole point of that particular shipyard to begin with too....along with specific capacity allotted there and whatever future consultancy involved there with friendly nations. That shipyard given the production coming up of SSBN and SSN is never going to make SSK, in fact more shipyard capacity is required for the nuclear ones to begin with going forward.

Totally different thing to what India has organised longer term for SSK....where companies like HDW, DCN, Navantia etc can bid ToT equity.

 

[Zapper]

Obviously since the SSBN program and following SSN program will not be a ToT collab in first place. There was some Russian consultancy involved, thats it. That was the whole point of that particular shipyard to begin with too....along with specific capacity allotted there and whatever future consultancy involved there with friendly nations. That shipyard given the production coming up of SSBN and SSN is never going to make SSK, in fact more shipyard capacity is required for the nuclear ones to begin with going forward.

Totally different thing to what India has organised longer term for SSK....where companies like HDW, DCN, Navantia etc can bid ToT equity.

I still feel it's gonna be a logistical nightmare to move away from the French Scorpenes and now induct a German platform even though we're operating some older models. Not to mention, the Germans are notorious for randomly banning export citing weird reasons

If I'm not wrong, the French were planning to offer an advanced Scorpene class kinda like a hybrid between the Scorpene and Barracuda...I wonder what happened to that!

 

[Nilgiri]

I still feel it's gonna be a logistical nightmare to move away from the French Scorpenes and now induct a German platform even though we're operating some older models. Not to mention, the Germans are notorious for randomly banning export citing weird reasons

Not really a logistical nightmare. The capital machinery is pretty much all the same in end with some updates maybe (that will need to happen anyway).... there may be some new addendums of worker training and new manufacturing IP, but largely its always get what you pay for in this realm anyway for new blocks of production.

In any case, I hope the last 3 scorpene (improved) does go through to keep MDL occupied while this next 6 materialises to a final stage.

Germans should indeed be avoided when it comes to land defence systems as far as possible given sanctions/hesitancy/delays shenanigans they pull here (since these are always in some state of operation that upsets their powers that be etc).

Navy is much more different realm to those (i.e India is not in some hot conflict needing schrodinger box opened w.r.t German feelings on it in first place.....i.e the tiers for naval conflict are much higher to get started compared to "low/middle key" land warfare/COIN in Kashmir, N.E, naxalite interior etc...and like say Turks also have w.r.t South Eastern parts of their country and Syrian border regions etc).

So things will progress fine in Naval realm, also given how the ToT in such projects is constructed in deal with guarantees and good fine print to begin with etc that tie into much more severe repercussions (compared to land) politically if violated later.

If I'm not wrong, the French were planning to offer an advanced Scorpene class kinda like a hybrid between the Scorpene and Barracuda...I wonder what happened to that!

Probably the projected cost (and timelines, given Indian shipyard capacity is already running on slim margins here)... i.e similar to reason it lost in Australian submarine one (you can read my replies in that thread)....and aussies just went full monty for direct SSN with AUKUS sub project anyway.

i.e makes little sense to pay for SSN and get SSK in end. Things are baked in material design and cost wise if a sub design starts as SSN (affecting how much you can pare down to make it an SSK), compared to doing a SSK (even say a larger SSK) from ground up.

 

[Anmdt]

Yah, supposedly with some updates to the design with U-212 features. Have to wait and see.

@Anmdt any thoughts?

In my opinion it could be type-214. I doubt if the Germans will sell Type-212 or supply the know-how related to stainless steel (I refer to non-magnetic steel as such for convenience ).

Why not the Common Design submarine? That was what the Germans were promoting to their customers and as it is told by them it is made to be modular in a sense to allow design modifications faster. Would Germans bother for modifications of Type-214/212 beyond this point, i would doubt.

RfP would tell better with the tonnage range.

 

[Jammer]

In my opinion it could be type-214. I doubt if the Germans will sell Type-212 or supply the know-how related to stainless steel (I refer to non-magnetic steel as such for convenience ).

Why not the Common Design submarine? That was what the Germans were promoting to their customers and as it is told by them it is made to be modular in a sense to allow design modifications faster. Would Germans bother for modifications of Type-214/212 beyond this point, i would doubt.

RfP would tell better with the tonnage range.

Germans already showed the design to indian media some time ago.

 

[Anmdt]

Germans already showed the design to indian media some time ago.
View attachment 70092

This is 212CD and if i am not mistaken, it was advertised with low TES.

 

[Zapper]

This is 212CD and if i am not mistaken, it was advertised with low TES.

How does this compare to the Scorpene?

 

[Nilgiri]

This is 212CD and if i am not mistaken, it was advertised with low TES.

Yeah 212CD is what I meant earlier by just "212".... anyway lets see what materialises in end like you say.

 

[Nilgiri]

Would Germans bother for modifications of Type-214/212 beyond this point, i would doubt.

Type -218

Invincible-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Anmdt]

Type -218

Invincible-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is what i meant with beyond this point, both Turkish and SG variants have introduced some changes that costed them man-hour in simplest manner and since awhile they have been seem to focusing on a design that can be commonized through customers with ease, thus the CD design came out.

How does this compare to the Scorpene?

It is bigger, i can not compare the AIP system itself but some tells MESMA is better. Due to its size Type212CD would have longer range, accomodate more crew for future payloads and likely have an automated-isolate torpedo trasnfer system/room. Scorpene may have the latest one as well, but as the size increases it is far more convenient to install one.

 

[rai456]

Germans already showed the design to indian media some time ago.
View attachment 70092

Does the stealth shaping have a big impact compared to the more conventional Scorpene design?

I don't really see the need for this when India is already building Scorpenes. Why not continue with the advanced Scorpene design with Indian AIP? You already have a SSN program. The excess money spent on this could go towards that program if you need more performance. Scorpene derived subs are good enough for your SSK needs.

 

[Jammer]

Does the stealth shaping have a big impact compared to the more conventional Scorpene design?

I don't really see the need for this when India is already building Scorpenes. Why not continue with the advanced Scorpene design with Indian AIP? You already have a SSN program. The excess money spent on this could go towards that program if you need more performance. Scorpene derived subs are good enough for your SSK needs.

Already we have 6 scorpenes that will get DRDO AIP along with 3 more Enlarged scorpenes why would they want more scorpenes that will be practically be the same cost and will be also be inferior on both size and tech when we can get new generation subs from germans that will in the end also help our own indigenous conventional sub program. French have a habit of treating its customers like a piggy bank and i am certain indonesia is gonna find it out the hard way.

 

[Nilgiri]

Does the stealth shaping have a big impact compared to the more conventional Scorpene design?

I don't really see the need for this when India is already building Scorpenes. Why not continue with the advanced Scorpene design with Indian AIP? You already have a SSN program. The excess money spent on this could go towards that program if you need more performance. Scorpene derived subs are good enough for your SSK needs.

Till we can bring more quantitative capacity online, every qualitative edge over the PLAN will be relentlessly pursued with our current production slots.

So if it means a sub is that much more survivable against PLAN sonar, yes it will have to be adjudged as to its power level versus cost. If found favourable, it will be pursued as we cannot do numbers game versus PLAN right now anyway. Its the whole reason behind say P-8 acquisition and forking out the resource and foreign relation capital expended for it with US.

 

[kakaliam2]

Are VLS Launched Cruise Missiles(Brahmos or Nirbhay) that effective and necessary for Indian Navy? What is the role of SSK in Indian Navy Doctrine? I don't think "Hunter-Killer" term makes sense since PLAN SSKs doesn't have range to operate in Indian Waters. In underwater realm, the threats would be PLAN ever expanding SSN Fleet and Pakistani Navy SSK Fleet. SSK even as an Ambusher for PLAN SSN doesn't make sense and quite stupid. Various assets like P8 Poseidon or ASW Frigates and our own SSNs are needed to thwart PLAN SSNs. Navy tends to treat SSK more of a Anti-Ship Platform, this elucidates that they are advocating for VLS in their SSKs.

In this context, what would provide maximum efficiency for given tonnage? VLS or a Automated Torpedo Room but bigger in size? Obviously if iam building an SSN, Iam gonna emphasize more on Torpedo Launching Capabilities than VLS. What about IN SSK that seem to emphasize on Anti-Ship Warfare?

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1841840818866249913

 

[Nilgiri]

Looks like the Germans and Mazagon have won the tender:

Indian Navy approves Mazagon Dock to build 6 submarines with German collaboration

The Indian Navy has approved the state-owned Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) to build six submarines with the project worth Rs 60,000 crore. The decision follows the completion of trials for submarines under Project 75 India.

www.indiatoday.in

P-75 (i.e scorpene) will likely get 3 additional orders (and however AIP retrofit/incorporation goes w.r.t that) at start of next year as P-75I production will forseeably take some time to get rolling:

India to have 1st nuclear-powered attack submarine in a decade besides 100 new warships

Admiral Tripathi said agreements with French authorities to buy 26 Rafale-M naval combat aircraft and three additional Scorpene submarines might be finalised by January.

www.deccanherald.com

Sense Prevails, India To Build 3 More Scorpene Submarines - Livefist

Nothing is ever certain in Indian defence procurement. But sense most definitely appears to have prevailed with the Indian Government all set to sign up for 3 more Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class in India) submarines that will be built at a production line in Mumbai. The line, which has built six...

www.livefistdefence.com

@Gessler et al.

 

[Nilgiri]

South block has now confirmed it is going with MDL-TKMS for the 6 next gen SSK project

70,000 crore INR ~ 8.2 billion USD

Centre okays Mazagon Dock & German maker Thyssenkrupp’s bid for multi-billion dollar submarine deal​

The L&T-Navantia bid failed to meet technical requirements. The deal, which will easily cost over Rs 70,000 crore, will see the German firm design a new submarine to cater to Indian needs.​

Centre okays Mazagon Dock & German maker Thyssenkrupp’s bid for multi-billion dollar submarine deal

The L&T-Navantia bid failed to meet technical requirements. The deal, which will easily cost over Rs 70,000 crore, will see the German firm design a new submarine to cater to Indian needs.

theprint.in

New Delhi: State-run Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) and Germany’s Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) have emerged as the winners of the Indian Navy’s mega multi-billion dollar deal to make the next set of six conventional submarines in India with latest stealth features.

The other bid by Indian private firm Larsen and Toubro (L&T) and Spanish firm Navantia failed to meet technical requirements of a proven air independent propulsion (AIP) system for the country’s submarine project, Project 75 India (P75I).

In April last year, ThePrint had reported that TKMS was the frontrunner to bag the mega contract, when an Indian Navy team was in Germany for a field evaluation of the AIP system.

The deal, which is expected to cost over Rs 70,000 crore—much more than the Rs 43,000 crore benchmark set by the defence ministry according to the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) accorded to the project—will see TKMS design a whole new submarine to cater to Indian requirements.

The design will be given to the Indian Navy, which will then use it to make their own indigenous submarine under Project 76.

Sources said that once the mandatory period of 45 days after informing the contenders is over, during which the decision could be challenged, the bid by MDL would be opened and cost negotiations would start for the formal contract. However, this means there will be no price discovery for the mega project.



The first submarine under P75I is to be delivered in 7 years from the date of signing the contract. So, if a contract is inked tomorrow, the first submarine would come earliest by 2032.

Sources said the Indian Navy submitted its field evaluation trial (FET) report to the defence ministry late last year, which said the TKMS submarine had met technical requirements.

However, L&T and the Spanish government argued that they too had met the criteria and followed Navy protocols. The defence ministry then constituted a three-member technical oversight committee to see if due process was followed. The committee was headed by a Rear Admiral and had one Air Commodore and one Brigadier-rank officer as members.

Earlier this month, sources added, the committee submitted its report saying all due process was followed. After this, the defence ministry took the decision that the L&T-Navantia bid did not meet technical requirements.