TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[No Name]

I had to read through all the damn pages before I made my post.

some people just narrowsighted and argue for the sake of arguing or impatient and press the reply button instead of reading to the end.

TBH @Nilgiri’s answer ( and others who said the same) was more than sufficient, and should have settled any further discussion.

From that point on any further discussion is kinda waste. Why am I saying that, well He’s aviation specialist, discussion among amateurs (kids) are fine until you raise the bar (adults).

IMO that is. I made this post 2h later so maybe the discussion has managed to make another round around the court…

Nilgiri did end the discussion essentially, and I pointed out that he was the only one that gave an actual counter-argument. the last couple of posts on the topic have been about the people's refusal to have any type of discussion instead people choice to blindly name call which doesn't help anyone.

 

[Ripley]

Nilgiri did end the discussion essentially, and I pointed out that he was the only one that gave an actual counter-argument. the last couple of posts on the topic have been about the people's refusal to have any type of discussion instead people choice to blindly name call which doesn't help anyone.

Again, the excitement was exceedingly high which turned the atmosphere of the forum into a hectic state and honestly bordering on chaos at times.
Realizing this, I decided to sit back and wait it simmer down just like @Saithan

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

TFX characteristics:

● Pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness. ( Aselsan HMD and FSS 360⁰ Situation awareness)

● High level of computer support, and artificial Intelligence support ( let's say the pilot fainted, he immediately maneuvers back to his base and lands on his own. Will have the ability to take off, and land on its own ).

● Artificial intelligence based on deep learning systems and neuron networks.

● 4 AESA radars will cover the hole TFX ( 2 on the wings, propulsion between the engines, and the nose).

● Aselsan BURFIS (Integrated RF system for TFX - 360-degree EW sensors + 360 degree AESA radars/ X BAND ).

● Advanced situational awareness and search/tracking capability IRST+ BEOS HD thermal sensors ( BEOS will also have HD resolution in the L/MWIR band (QWIP) + SWIR detectors)

● TFX will have a Laser weapon system on board to neutralize missiles that pose a threat to the aircraft.

● MUMT-X capability ( command and control swarm supersonic drones, without putting themselves in danger)

● 25 million lines of the codes that will be written for the software that will run on the ground/air for the TFX.

● TFX will have super-cruise capability and faster top speed than the f35.

 

[boredaf]

MUMT-X capability ( command and control swarm supersonic drones through the second seat pilot without putting themselves in danger)

Wait, TF-X is a two seater?

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Wait, TF-X is a two seater?

Yes, there will be a twin-seat variant, however, if I remember correctly the first variants might be single-seaters.


Correction: The idea of the two-seater TFX got abandoned. The two seater TFX was planned but a few years back when Temel Kotil stated that the TFX would have different variants ( A-B-C) with different mission profiles.

 

[Afif]

@Knowledgeseeker for the record, we didn't saw side looking AESA panels yet.

And I think there would be another infrared sensor besides IRST+BEOS which would be similar to F-35s DASS ( supposed to be developed by Tubitak )

 

[dBSPL]

Although I am interested in flight simulations, I have no pilot training nor formal knowledge of this discipline. So please forgive me if what I write is stupid. The MMU is a high-speed and highly maneuverable fighter jet. And the KE is intended to be an unmanned interceptor. I don't understand the logic of what is written about the MMU having direct flight control, over the KE.

Let's say the co-pilot is controlling the drone with a virtual reality mode on his helmet, for one thing, you're in a completely different theater and vehicle, so it's not going to be augmented reality elements and decision support systems projected on the helmet screen. You need to be taking images from inside a completely different airplane at a completely different point and with completely different flight parameters.

It is a completely separate discussion whether this image and instant information can be safely and healthily established between two high-speed vehicles for the flow of flight data, and even if we do not go into that side of the business, as you can see, it is not an easy situation even for human physiology to try to direct the aircraft, which is in a different flight dynamics and therefore under different g forces, in a completely different flight dynamics, like a pilot. Moreover, while today's AI studies have shown that it can develop highly accurate counter-moves about human psychological tendencies and flight characteristics, I think it is also debatable why a pilot should have flight control of the KE.

So I think, if you have the goal of making an interceptor drone, this jet has to perform maneuvering and evasive maneuvers within the rules of engagement without direct human control. The drone engages within its mission profile, if it needs to throw a radar lock, it does that, what you have to do is whether that missile is fired or not. At this point, this decision can be made by the pilot who is currently operating the MMU, or it can be made from the control center at the main base.

*

But apart from that, I think we should still see a two-seater version of the MMU. Some of the design details of the MME, and most importantly its high installed power, could allow this platform to conduct electronic warfare in an extraordinarily powerful way. In other words, it may not be a KE, but it can be an electronic attack platform that will turn off all the lights in the theater with the large number of electronic warfare decoys it will fire and the systems it carries. Or one TF-23-EW variant in an MMU formation arm can create a black hole in the enemy tactical air picture.

 

[Ripley]

Yes, there will be a twin-seat variant, however, if I remember correctly the first variants might be single-seaters.

It was left undetermined iirc. I did some search and couldn’t find anything to support the two seater variant in a foreseeable future.

I found, however, that TUSAS had revealed at a press meeting they were ready to design a two seater to maximize the MUM-T (Manned Unmmaned Teaming) mission capability of the plane where the back seater would act as UAV operator.
In January 2023 at another meeting it was said that there would be no two seater variant as the MUM-T mission parameters would entirely be handled by the EW system onboard the plane.

 

[No Name]

TFX characteristics:

● Pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness. ( Aselsan HMD and FSS 360⁰ Situation awareness)

● High level of computer support, and artificial Intelligence support ( let's say the pilot fainted, he immediately maneuvers back to his base and lands on his own. Will have the ability to take off, and land on its own ).

● Artificial intelligence based on deep learning systems and neuron networks.

● 4 AESA radars will cover the hole TFX ( 2 on the wings, propulsion between the engines, and the nose).

● Aselsan BURFIS (Integrated RF system for TFX - 360-degree EW sensors + 360 degree AESA radars/ X BAND ).

● Advanced situational awareness and search/tracking capability IRST+ BEOS HD thermal sensors ( BEOS will also have HD resolution in the L/MWIR band (QWIP) + SWIR detectors)

● TFX will have a Laser weapon system on board to neutralize missiles that pose a threat to the aircraft.

● MUMT-X capability ( command and control swarm supersonic drones through the second seat pilot without putting themselves in danger)

● 25 million lines of the codes that will be written for the software that will run on the ground/air for the TFX.

● TFX will have super-cruise capability and faster top speed than the f35.


View attachment 55113

Does those anyone know how far along some of these features are?

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

It was left undetermined iirc. I did some search and couldn’t find anything to support the two seater variant in a foreseeable future.

I found, however, that TUSAS had revealed at a press meeting they were ready to design a two seater to maximize the MUM-T (Manned Unmmaned Teaming) mission capability of the plane where the back seater would act as UAV operator.
In January 2023 at another meeting it was said that there would be no two seater variant as the MUM-T mission parameters would entirely be handled by the EW system onboard the plane.

Temel Kotil stated that the TFX would have different variants ( A-B-C) with different mission profiles however this is a few years back in time. Thanks for the correction! Seems like the idea of the two-seater got abandoned.

I also found this post by @Cabatli_TR around 2 months ago stating the following:

"According to the agreement signed with the Turkish Air Force, TAI should start MMU deliveries in 2029. There will be no double seat version."


@boredaf

 

[Ripley]

Let's say the co-pilot is controlling the drone with a virtual reality mode on his helmet, for one thing, you're in a completely different theater and vehicle, so it's not going to be augmented reality elements and decision support systems projected on the helmet screen. You need to be taking images from inside a completely different airplane at a completely different point and with completely different flight parameters.

It is a completely separate discussion whether this image and instant information can be safely and healthily established between two high-speed vehicles for the flow of flight data, and even if we do not go into that side of the business, as you can see, it is not an easy situation even for human physiology to try to direct the aircraft, which is in a different flight dynamics and therefore under different g forces, in a completely different flight dynamics, like a pilot. Moreover, while today's AI studies have shown that it can develop highly accurate counter-moves about human psychological tendencies and flight characteristics, I think it is also debatable why a pilot should have flight control of the KE.

This is where I fail to understand (or appreciate?) the loyal wingman concept other than a grasp of general idea behind it.
Will the MUM-T (Man Unmanned Teaming) dictate a classic close flight formation where the the loyal wingman act as protection of the MMU or will it be diverted off ahead to intercept beyond the horizon enemy units diverging toward MMU? Or, as some suggested, will the KE and other UAVs act as decoys for MMU while the latter performing its mission?
And if all above correct, then does it require a back seat operator on MMU? Or Can it be achieved solely by the pilot? Or maybe by ground control or autonomous AI capabilities of the KE?

But apart from that, I think we should still see a two-seater version of the MMU. Some of the design details of the MME, and most importantly its high installed power, could allow this platform to conduct electronic warfare in an extraordinarily powerful way. In other words, it may not be a KE, but it can be an electronic attack platform that will turn off all the lights in the theater with the large number of electronic warfare decoys it will fire and the systems it carries. Or one TF-23-EW variant in an MMU

Koreans already designed and flew a two seater version of KF-21. Whether it was an intensified EW or just a trainer version, I don’t know.

 

[Agha Sher]

A two-seater 5th generation aircraft is a waste of money. The argument of drone-controller is bs. In the coming decades drones will either act fully autonomously or receive orders from AWACS or ground stations.

 

[Quasar]

Although I am interested in flight simulations, I have no pilot training nor formal knowledge of this discipline. So please forgive me if what I write is stupid. The MMU is a high-speed and highly maneuverable fighter jet. And the KE is intended to be an unmanned interceptor. I don't understand the logic of what is written about the MMU having direct flight control, over the KE.

Let's say the co-pilot is controlling the drone with a virtual reality mode on his helmet, for one thing, you're in a completely different theater and vehicle, so it's not going to be augmented reality elements and decision support systems projected on the helmet screen. You need to be taking images from inside a completely different airplane at a completely different point and with completely different flight parameters.

It is a completely separate discussion whether this image and instant information can be safely and healthily established between two high-speed vehicles for the flow of flight data, and even if we do not go into that side of the business, as you can see, it is not an easy situation even for human physiology to try to direct the aircraft, which is in a different flight dynamics and therefore under different g forces, in a completely different flight dynamics, like a pilot. Moreover, while today's AI studies have shown that it can develop highly accurate counter-moves about human psychological tendencies and flight characteristics, I think it is also debatable why a pilot should have flight control of the KE.

So I think, if you have the goal of making an interceptor drone, this jet has to perform maneuvering and evasive maneuvers within the rules of engagement without direct human control. The drone engages within its mission profile, if it needs to throw a radar lock, it does that, what you have to do is whether that missile is fired or not. At this point, this decision can be made by the pilot who is currently operating the MMU, or it can be made from the control center at the main base.

*

But apart from that, I think we should still see a two-seater version of the MMU. Some of the design details of the MME, and most importantly its high installed power, could allow this platform to conduct electronic warfare in an extraordinarily powerful way. In other words, it may not be a KE, but it can be an electronic attack platform that will turn off all the lights in the theater with the large number of electronic warfare decoys it will fire and the systems it carries. Or one TF-23-EW variant in an MMU formation arm can create a black hole in the enemy tactical air picture.

This is where I fail to understand (or appreciate?) the loyal wingman concept other than a grasp of general idea behind it.
Will the MUM-T (Man Unmanned Teaming) dictate a classic close flight formation where the the loyal wingman act as protection of the MMU or will it be diverted off ahead to intercept beyond the horizon enemy units diverging toward MMU? Or, as some suggested, will the KE and other UAVs act as decoys for MMU while the latter performing its mission?
And if all above correct, then does it require a back seat operator on MMU? Or Can it be achieved solely by the pilot? Or maybe by ground control or autonomous AI capabilities of the KE?

Koreans already designed and flew a two seater version of KF-21. Whether it was an intensified EW or just a trainer version, I don’t know.

very interesting topic

-MMU and KE should be able to see the same battlefield picture i.e a common enhanced situational awareness

- not the pilot but MMU itself should be able to share and exchange data (or periodic data updates depending on the situation) with KE I mean all sorts of data IFF, target data....etc without compromising stealth

-for the pilot to pick KE should have pre-determined mission profles which KE executes autonomously for instance as an absurdly simple example for a pre-determined mission profle can be watch my six

 

[zio]

I hope Nose aesa radar X/S bands,wing area radar L band,rear area radar S bands

 

[UcanTost]

Will mmu have thrust nozzles like the f22 when different engine comes?

 

[Siper>MMU]

I hope Nose aesa radar X/S bands,wing area radar L band,rear area radar S bands

Ku/Ka bands would be more suitable for backwards facing radar. Since you can track smaller targets with highaccuracy in higher frequencies, a Ku/Ka band radar would allow MMU to track incoming missiles and inform the pilot with their precise location.

 

[Khagan1923]

I'm not going to enter some of the discussions here started by some "experts" who are clearly are on path of concern trolling than anything.
Just going to point out something from the pictures published.

I think there is not enough praise put on TAI for the quality of the FIRST prototype aircraft. TAI has given me enough to say with confidence that the production variants will be up there in quality with the F-35 and even above some other competitors I won't mention.

Everything with this project is on track, the only thing we need to solve now is the engine issue.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

The cockpit of TFX according to some people View attachment 55123

Spot on!

 

[MADDOG]

4K images of the TF-X via SST

 

[MADDOG]

Hmmm....

Interesting...